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Old 12-25-2014, 12:06 AM   #261
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I think that part of the recent trend towards pairing all non-het characters is that for a very long time, any non-het character in a show or movie or book never got portrayed in a relationship... so TPTB were able to pay lip-service towards being progressive and inclusive, yet still effectively neutered the queer character and didn't have to worry about making people feel uncomfortable.

The thing is - there's never going to be a 100% perfect solution. There's never going to be the One LGBTQ Portrayal which will please every non-het person on earth. Just like there's no One Straight Character who everyone on earth feels they connect with. That's why it's important to have a variety of characters. What's important is that we keep moving forward, keep challenging intolerance and keep doing our part to let TPTB know that there is a market for queer-inclusive entertainment. A straight reader/viewer is completely capable of enjoying reading about a non-het character, just like queer folk are capable of enjoying straight characters.

I think at the end of the day, what's important is not inclusivity for the sake of checking off a quota. Nobody wants that. People who want LGBTQ characters in stories don't just want a percentage - we want good stories. What's important is telling stories with characters that reflect the diversity we have in real life. It shouldn't be about writing gay characters - it should be about writing characters who happen to be gay. And sometimes their sexual orientation will be reflected in their day to day life - and sometimes it won't. Just like with straight characters.
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Old 12-25-2014, 01:03 AM   #262
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Vernin in the OT was a token gay character in a very stereotypical sense. He was depicted as metrosexual, but he was never really shown interested in women and often when he was shown interested in something female it was either a joke or a comment made in jest. Such as when Irma was commenting to April about how she didn't have a date and Vernin comes up and snidely says "Sorry Irma, my scheduals full." to which Irma rolls her eyes and says "Vernin, I'm lonely not desperate."

It seemed the only character he did have a raging hard on for was Burn Thompson. He was subservant to anyone in power. Since he was one of the first people who would automatically fall to his knees and grovel in suplication. Particularly if it would prevent himself alone from coming to harm.


In the movie he wasn't even Vernin as the OT vernin didn't particularly liked April. So I'm going to assume the Vernin Fenwick displayed in the recent movie is a made for movie character that just happens to have the same name as an OT character.

I don't know if Vernin and Burn Thompson and Tiffany the Turtle Hater would appear in the nick show as characters. Since they introduced Irma as a chararacter it's possible they could be introduced, but the show doesn't really need'em.
I don't think he is gay, just a coward. He did try to trick April into kissing him though.
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Old 12-25-2014, 01:06 AM   #263
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Well, if he wasn't full-on gay, he was certainly skirting the line. There were some hints here and there, like his constant preening, his wardrobe palette, and his body language and the way he talked.
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Old 12-25-2014, 08:20 AM   #264
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Yeah, I always thought of Vernon as either gay or bi in the FW cartoon as he certainly seemed to lean that way.

And, Penny, that's a very good post and I agree with it. As long as a character like that can be written well and have a good story told, that's awesome and that's what I would want.

Metalwolf, I feel you on the whole forum thing, but I think the mods were probably trying to keep the peace since there are people who are offended at the idea that their sexuality is considered a sin and don't like to hear stuff like that.
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Old 12-25-2014, 02:37 PM   #265
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I think a lot of the basis for what happens in regards to non-straight characters in general is hugely because of fear. Not of gay people, but the fear itself by straight people of 'offending' gay people in some way. This is so bad, that it jumps outside of media and into other places, that it's becomes a form of censoring.

Let me illustrate for you just how bad this fear is:
A person on the LGBT spectrum in another forum started up a thread about his personal feelings on himself and his religion (Christianity) and wanted to find other folks like him. This is special because by and large, most 'spectrum' people you encounter are secular. I joined in, because I am also the same way I am Christian and it felt good to have a thread that allowed us to discuss the very specific issues regarding our practice of Christianity and having the same sex or trans feelings at the same time. Sounds hunky dory? Not to the forum mods. Turns out they didn't like any mention of the word 'sin' or anything of that sort, even though it was going to be a very frank discussion. Being religious and having those kinds of feelings, that sort of thing is going to pop up. It makes straight people extremely spooky and raises the ghost of possibly 'offending,' so not even spectrumers can talk about certain things of themselves. Stuff that most of us would nose dive into without batting an eyelash, but it makes them squirm big time. We aren't bothered by it, but they are bothered by it.

Like for instance, let me give an idea of this kind of frank discussion: In reality I don't feel comfortable in labeling myself bisexual. It has too many secular associations that don't fit my identity in Christ. The Bible says 'Some of you once were' which includes homosexuality, which I feel calling myself thus would be retaking on the old earthly identity. from now on, I will just know that I have have same sex feelings, which I feel would be sinful to act on.

Now wanna bet that some here started squirming like a fat worm on a fishhook? Possibly 'offending' spectrum people scares straight people, even when a spectrumer is saying this stuff about themselves. But what is tragic is that it prevents straights from ever seeing the real human underneath with their own thoughts and feelings. Not everything comes in an 'ideal' package or is going to make warm and fuzzy feelings. It's why a lot of the characters tend to suck and don't feel really human, because they are strained of ideas and feelings and anything else that just might make people uncomfortable. They are idealized, unoffesnive, and 'safe.'
In this day and age, talk of religion is less accepted than talking about sexual orientation, probably because nobody likes hearing that they're doing something wrong according to a philosophy they don't adhere to or believe in. It is very maginalizing. Stick out, and you'll be mowed down, basically.
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Old 12-25-2014, 06:21 PM   #266
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Yeah, I always thought of Vernon as either gay or bi in the FW cartoon as he certainly seemed to lean that way.

And, Penny, that's a very good post and I agree with it. As long as a character like that can be written well and have a good story told, that's awesome and that's what I would want.

Metalwolf, I feel you on the whole forum thing, but I think the mods were probably trying to keep the peace since there are people who are offended at the idea that their sexuality is considered a sin and don't like to hear stuff like that.
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In this day and age, talk of religion is less accepted than talking about sexual orientation, probably because nobody likes hearing that they're doing something wrong according to a philosophy they don't adhere to or believe in. It is very maginalizing. Stick out, and you'll be mowed down, basically.
Gotcha. I think a lot of it just comes from the frustration of seeing some extremely imperfect portrayals come across and the way they are done, as it makes me facepalm every time.

And I agree Penny, they aren't going to be perfect, but it's hard not to whinge on it when half the time you want to slap the character. Willow from Buffy for example was interesting, and then they suddenly did an odd thing and turned her into a lesbian just over breaking up with her boyfriend. I can't help but think, if they wanted a lesbian character, why didn't they just simply make her one from the get go? Doing that kind of stuff makes them look cheap and pandering, because it's like 'Oh, we suddenly want to feature a lesbian now. Lets just take the easy way and have an established character totally flip their previous orientation, even though she never stated an attraction for women before, because yah know, lesbian. Let's get to it folks." They should have made her one from the beginning, or not bothered her one at all. It's a bit of that stuff that bugs me.

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Old 12-25-2014, 07:20 PM   #267
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Gotcha. I think a lot of it just comes from the frustration of seeing some extremely imperfect portrayals come across and the way they are done, as it makes me facepalm every time.

And I agree Penny, they aren't going to be perfect, but it's hard not to whinge on it when half the time you want to slap the character. Willow from Buffy for example was interesting, and then they suddenly did an odd thing and turned her into a lesbian just over breaking up with her boyfriend. I can't help but think, if they wanted a lesbian character, why didn't they just simply make her one from the get go? Doing that kind of stuff makes them look cheap and pandering, because it's like 'Oh, we suddenly want to feature a lesbian now. Lets just take the easy way and have an established character totally flip their previous orientation, even though she never stated an attraction for women before, because yah know, lesbian. Let's get to it folks." They should have made her one from the beginning, or not bothered her one at all. It's a bit of that stuff that bugs me.
Or she coulda been bi. I know girls that have had boyfriends and girlfriends without any specific preference over the other. She just cares who treats her right not the gender.
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Old 12-25-2014, 07:47 PM   #268
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I think we will eventually. It took Marvel and DC a few decades to get around to introducing openly gay or lesbian characters, but it shouldn't take the TMNT universe that long given the times we live in.

As for one or more of the guys being gay, I believe it can work if it's handled well and not completely ham-fisted and over-the-top. The best way to do it, in my opinion, would be through the comics since the medium affords more room for complex storytelling and character development (unlike the TV series with its 22-minute time slot and X number of episodes per season).

All in all, I'd love for the turtles to grow as individuals. It'd be awesome if we can look back another 30 years from now and say, "Wow. These guys have really come a long way".
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Old 12-25-2014, 07:49 PM   #269
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Considering that they are still animals, the root of their sexuality probably would stem from the animalistic need to reproduce...so they probably wouldn't have a "homosexual tendency." I guess it really just depend how far you want to seperate them from being classified as an "animal"

Now if they were something like a branded mongoose...that could be different.
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Old 12-25-2014, 08:01 PM   #270
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Agreed - I always thought the Willow thing should have been handled with her being bi. Having her come out with lines like "Hello, gay now" - like, NYYGH. That's not how sexuality works - you don't just change orientation overnight FFS.

Same thing with Kevin Smith's writing of Chasing Amy - one minute, Alyssa's a lesbian and then she's with guys again. Like, come on - just use the "b" word. It's ok, you can say it! Bi folk exist!

Awareness, understanding and representation of bisexuality is sadly lacking - and that's something that needs to be worked on.

Once again, it comes back to this ridiculous need to define sexuality in absolute black and white terms; people automatically only think of characters as gay or straight. A character having been attracted to someone of the opposite sex in the past doesn't preclude that same person being attracted to someone of the same gender.

To quote Kinsey, people "...do not represent two discrete populations, heterosexual and homosexual. The world is not to be divided into sheep and goats. It is a fundamental of taxonomy that nature rarely deals with discrete categories... The living world is a continuum in each and every one of its aspects."

Not that some of Kinsey's statements in the past aren't problematic - but the point remains; for many people, sexuality, physical/emotional attraction and romantic love can be a spectrum. There's this social bias that people are only gay or straight, and there's no room for either in between - and if someone does exist between those two poles, then they're 'confused' or 'experimenting' or 'promiscuous'; somehow wrong and flawed.
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Old 12-26-2014, 04:10 PM   #271
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I'm not really too keen on shoving sexuality up other people's throats.
Korra and Asami getting together is absolutely fine by me. But I really don't want people to mess with the turtles for the sake of being accepting towards other sexualities. Add a new character instead or something.
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Old 12-26-2014, 04:24 PM   #272
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It's already been extrapolated upon why that kind of "change" really doesn't do a ton of good in the long run and is more a band-aid than anything.

It'd be a step, to be sure, but kind of a patronizing one. "Here's your Token Gay. You can have one, but it can't be anyone we care about, except to remind people that Being Gay is the whole reason you *should* care about this particular character." It's messy.
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Old 12-26-2014, 04:47 PM   #273
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Willow from Buffy for example was interesting, and then they suddenly did an odd thing and turned her into a lesbian just over breaking up with her boyfriend. I can't help but think, if they wanted a lesbian character, why didn't they just simply make her one from the get go? Doing that kind of stuff makes them look cheap and pandering, because it's like 'Oh, we suddenly want to feature a lesbian now. Lets just take the easy way and have an established character totally flip their previous orientation, even though she never stated an attraction for women before, because yah know, lesbian. Let's get to it folks." They should have made her one from the beginning, or not bothered her one at all. It's a bit of that stuff that bugs me.
Seriously? That is messed up. From either angle. Bugs me that society seemed to be, and still somewhat, convinced that women's sexual orientation is that fluid as if we don't know ourselves at all. I mean, good on them if they wanted to be more inclusive, but changing a character like that is not doing a service to anyone.

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Considering that they are still animals, the root of their sexuality probably would stem from the animalistic need to reproduce...so they probably wouldn't have a "homosexual tendency." I guess it really just depend how far you want to seperate them from being classified as an "animal"
Maybe. But, as you say, depends on how separate they are or I guess how individual fans see it.

IMO, with the mutation they stepped over the same threshold that humankind did, remaining as "animals" on about an equal level that humans do. (Although many humans sometimes behave in a more animalistic way than they do, so who are the animals here?? lol) I think - to bring it back on topic - the advanced, human-like minds would function pretty similarly, including consideration to personal attraction to others, and to who, beyond just an urge to reproduce.

Side thought...
Spoiler:
If they were real it might make sense to give them a new classification, maybe something like Trachemys Sapiens. Trachemys being the genus including red-eared sliders; Sapiens, given it's definition and root origins, would work for them as it does humans.



Sorry for late replies, took a day off the computer on Christmas. (And actually lived!)


But yeah, token characters or abrupt changes with a direct purpose kinda suck. I imagine that there is maybe a period where it's perfect for revealing certain personal details about characters, after they've been around a bit and storylines are set, but too far beyond a certain amount of time it just looks forced.
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Old 11-03-2017, 09:31 PM   #274
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I didn't think so originally, but now that we have our first African American April...who knows?

They'd probably have something like Mike crush on another mutant such as Mondo Gecko or Leatherhead than a human though.
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Old 11-03-2017, 09:42 PM   #275
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Been on your mind, has it... Enough to bump an almost 3-year-old thread? Heh
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Old 11-13-2017, 10:56 PM   #276
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wasn't there already the comic 'the Birds the Bees and the Turtles'?
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Old 11-14-2017, 12:11 AM   #277
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Been on your mind, has it... Enough to bump an almost 3-year-old thread? Heh
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:24 PM   #278
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I remember a few years ago finding a gif of Leonardo/Raph making out and I used it as my sig in the drome for a few days before the mods changed it for me and told me it was upsetting some members.
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Old 11-14-2017, 05:12 PM   #279
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I remember a few years ago finding a gif of Leonardo/Raph making out and I used it as my sig in the drome for a few days before the mods changed it for me and told me it was upsetting some members.
Well, I think most of us can live without seeing the turtles being that intimate with each other. It's not that people mind them being gay or anything, but incest? Not many are pro that.
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Old 11-14-2017, 05:31 PM   #280
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Well, I think most of us can live without seeing the turtles being that intimate with each other. It's not that people mind them being gay or anything, but incest? Not many are pro that.
I hate to tell you this, but lots of people would mind if they were gay.
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