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Old 03-02-2018, 02:52 PM   #181
plastroncafe
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Originally Posted by TurtleWA View Post
Can you say more about this? I don’t understand.
Sure.
I've heard people say, "This guy must be crazy. Only a crazy person would go into a place and shoot a bunch of people."

But we literally pay people to do that, and we don't consider them crazy. Heck, often times we don't even consider them murderers.
They were just doing their jobs.

They were defending themselves. Or they were fighting for what they believed to be a just cause.


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Originally Posted by joe-eyeball View Post
I am actually curious as to what you believe that “common ground”would include?
I have no idea what that would entail, because I've yet to hear someone with any actual power or authority to make changes make a proposal.
There's only a circling of wagons.

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Also “mental illness” is a bit of wide sweeping term. It’s certainly not limited to people that are just diagnosed with a mental illness! Your comment regarding military and police is kind of ridiculous! Again the majority of them are simply doing the job they were trained, instructed/ordered to do and for the most part the methods they employ are accepted by the community at large. I get that you’re trying to say a soldier may be committing horrible acts over in some other country but in his mind he or she is doing it for their country or following orders. Of course there are always exceptions and I’m fine with saying any soldier or member of law enforcement that flies off the handle and goes to far can and should be held accountable and if they are referred to as having a mental break or mental illness then so be it.
Mental illness isn't, nor should it be, a broad sweeping term.
It has a specific meaning that should be respected.

It's like saying every time someone sneezes they have the influenza.
Sure, flu-like symptoms are a common symptom...but every time someone has flu-like symptoms we don't treat them the same way we'd treat someone with the flu.

Misuse of language is unhelpful.

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Just for the record I understand and believe that that most people with mental conditions never harm themselves or anyone else and that by using the term mentally ill in regards to these killers could cause harm to mentally ill people that pose absolutely no threat at all.
Then why do you persist in using it?

School Shootings, a play in one act.

"Hey we've got a fire over here. Someone want to do something about that?"
Let's add more fire.
"Maybe that's not the best idea? Let's try water. Maybe reduce the amount of fire instead?"
No more fire is better. It's great. You just can't see that it's great because you're irrational and have emotions. When you've calmed down, we can talk about maybe putting out the fire, but...in the meantime, as the only clear-headed person here...more fire it is.

And scene.
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Old 03-02-2018, 03:16 PM   #182
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[QUOTE=plastroncafe;1749515]Sure.
I've heard people say, "This guy must be crazy. Only a crazy person would go into a place and shoot a bunch of people."

But we literally pay people to do that, and we don't consider them crazy. Heck, we don't even consider them murderers.

Crazy, mentally ill, these are words that have mean

Quote:



I have no idea what that would entail, because I've yet to hear someone with any actual power or authority to make changes make a proposal.
There's only a circling of wagons.



Mental illness isn't, nor should it be, a broad sweeping term.
It has a specific meaning that should be respected.

It's like saying every time someone sneezes they have the influenza.
Sure, flu-like symptoms are a common symptom...but every time someone has flu-like symptoms we don't treat them the same way we'd treat someone with the flu.

Misuse of language is unhelpful.



Then why do you persist in using it?
It’s not even remotely the same as your sneezing/ flu analogy and I use the terms because I 100% believe these shooters are mentally ill when they are committing these horrible acts! Besides doesn’t the mental health community prescribe to the notion that 1 in 5 people experience a “mental illness at some point? I think it would be a mistake to think that the people that do these things aren’t mentally ill in that it would detract from focusing on what is part of our violence problem in this country! I do believe it’s fair to say that there is a mental health component Attached to this. just because someone is experiencing mental illness doesn’t mean they should be ashamed of it or afraid to seek out help but I do understand that it’s not that simple. I don’t feel as though I’m judging all people with a mental illness but I can understand how someone might think that I am. I mean if someone that has paranoid delusions and is hearing voices in their head saying to go out and shoot up a movie theater, wouldn’t it be fair to say a mental illness played a role in the shooting taking place? Again , I understand the difference between mentally ill with support and treatment versus mentally ill that acts out with violence towards others.

Sorry but your example of putting out the fire is outrageous to the point of being laughable! There is also a difference between thinking about something that could be conveyed as mentally ill versus actually doing it. I’m pretty sure I have made it clear that I understand the difference!

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Old 03-02-2018, 03:30 PM   #183
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It’s not even remotely the same as your sneezing/ flu analogy and I use the terms because I 100% believe these shooters are mentally ill when they are committing these horrible acts!
Okay.
So do you consider members of the military or police mentally ill when the do their jobs?
And if not, then what to you is the difference?

Quote:
Besides doesn’t the mental health community prescribe to the notion that 1 in 5 people experience a “mental illness at some point?
That's not a statistic I'm aware of.
Do you have a source for it?

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I think it would be a mistake to think that the people that do these things aren’t mentally ill in that it would detract from focusing on what is part of our violence problem in this country!
Where as I think the opposite. By assuming that people who commit violent acts are mentally ill, we're dismissing out of hand a whole host of other reasons for their behavior. And it gives all of us an out for what ever part we may have played in the shooting.

If this boy was crazy there was nothing we could have done to prevent this.
It was inevitable, and can't possibly be prevented in the future.

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I do believe it’s fair to say that there is a mental health component Attached to this. just because someone is experiencing mental illness doesn’t mean they should be ashamed of it or afraid to seek out help but I do understand that it’s not that simple. I don’t feel as though I’m judging all people with a mental illness but I can understand how someone might think that I am. I mean if someone that has paranoid delusions and is hearing voices in their head saying to go out and shoot up a movie theater, wouldn’t it be fair to say a mental illness played a role in the shooting taking place? Again , I understand the difference between mentally ill with support and treatment versus mentally ill that acts out with violence towards others.
I don't think we help either the mentally ill, or quell the seemingly rising tide of violent behavior, by simply saying:
Only a crazy person would do this.

I just think it's the wrong tactic to take.
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Old 03-02-2018, 03:30 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by plastroncafe View Post
I've heard people say, "This guy must be crazy. Only a crazy person would go into a place and shoot a bunch of people."

But we literally pay people to do that, and we don't consider them crazy. Heck, often times we don't even consider them murderers.
They were just doing their jobs.

They were defending themselves. Or they were fighting for what they believed to be a just cause.
I agree that the terms “crazy” and “mentally ill” should not just get tossed around. I personally don’t even like the term “crazy.” It seems like it’s not helpful but hurtful. I’m still not seeing how military/police are anything comparable to the Florida shooter.

If your acting outside what society has determined to be appropriate you might be displaying symptoms of a mental illness. “Disregard for society's laws” is a criteria for anti-social personality disorder. If military/police are showing the same disregard for the law as a mass shooter than they may indeed have a diagnosable mental illness too.

Also I’m guessing that military/police may have some remorse even after following the law. Such as killing someone in self defense. I’m not thinking a lot of mass murders have regret. Lack of remorse/regret is another criteria for anti-social personality disorder.
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Old 03-02-2018, 04:12 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by plastroncafe View Post
Okay.
So do you consider members of the military or police mentally ill when the do their jobs?
And if not, then what to you is the difference?
The difference is that society doesn’t see it that way. For the most part our military and law enforcement and the tough job they have to do and the ugly and even violent aspects are justified in the eyes f the public. Again there are always exceptions but it’s not viewed as the norm. And if you’re saying that that viewpoint towards police and military needs to change then so be it but to use a phrase you utilized earlier “that’s a steep hill to climb”! And good luck with that!





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Originally Posted by plastroncafe View Post
That's not a statistic I'm aware of.
Do you have a source for it?
I’ve read this in few different places but try this one

https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-...mental-illness





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Originally Posted by plastroncafe View Post
Where as I think the opposite. By assuming that people who commit violent acts are mentally ill, we're dismissing out of hand a whole host of other reasons for their behavior. And it gives all of us an out for what ever part we may have played in the shooting.

If this boy was crazy there was nothing we could have done to prevent this.
It was inevitable, and can't possibly be prevented in the future.
I haven’t used the term crazy nor did I say that there is nothing that could be done to prevent this! Please don’t put words in my mouth!



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Originally Posted by plastroncafe View Post
I don't think we help either the mentally ill, or quell the seemingly rising tide of violent behavior, by simply saying:
Only a crazy person would do this.

I just think it's the wrong tactic to take.
There you are again throwing out terms I haven’t used. Never mind I’m clearly wasting my time here.
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Old 03-02-2018, 05:16 PM   #186
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We can do that, but I'd rather spend that energy -- for now, until we have a solution, or even a half measure -- on protecting kids' lives in the schools right now. Not later on. Right now. That should be the priority and I kind of have to question the true agendas of folks of whom have a different priority than that.

Kids Lives > Gun Removal Agenda/Let's Talk New Gun Legislature/Etc.

Why is this even a question?

When the kids are safe (or safer, at least) we can go to the table about "fixing" gun control. Preferably when people are acting less out of emotion and -- in a lot of cases (I'm not saying yours) -- largely uneducated irrationality.
The reason why people are trying to "fix gun control" is to make kids safer, you can disagree with people who think fixing gun control is going to be good idea but saying we should make kids safe first(even then thats a vague issue) before talking about the gun issue does not make sense
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Old 03-02-2018, 05:19 PM   #187
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The reason why people are trying to "fix gun control" is to make kids safer, you can disagree with people who think fixing gun control is going to be good idea but saying we should make kids safe first(even then thats a vague issue) before talking about the gun issue does not make sense
"Fixing" gun control won't stop shootings anytime in the foreseeable future. The guns are already out there. They're always going to be out there.
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Old 03-02-2018, 05:42 PM   #188
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"Fixing" gun control won't stop shootings anytime in the foreseeable future. The guns are already out there. They're always going to be out there.
Exactly right! The guns are out there and words on paper (more legislation) isn’t going to stop mass shootings! We tried to slow up alcohol consumption with prohibition and it made things worse and created a black market! Drugs are illegal and look how that is going for America! The number of people that die from illegal drug use is significantly higher than the number of people that die from firearms but hey who cares about drugs, that doesn’t sell enough papers or spark as much outrage! We definitely need to do something to help stop the violence but no matter what we will never make it go away completely and trampling on constitutional rights isn’t a common sense solution!
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Old 03-02-2018, 05:49 PM   #189
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"Fixing" gun control won't stop shootings anytime in the foreseeable future. The guns are already out there. They're always going to be out there.
Agreed!

Also age restrictions and/or outright banning assault styled guns will do little if these quotes are accurate.

Quote:
The overwhelming number of U.S. mass shooting over the last 50 years were committed by adults older than 21
Quote:
In nearly all the mass shootings by shooters younger than age of 21, the guns were stolen from relatives or illegally purchased or the shooters were armed with guns not considered assault weapons.
https://www.google.com/amp/abcnews.g...tings-53319153

It's almost like two separate issues. 1. How to protect schools from threats. 2. How to keep guns out of the hands of criminals.
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Old 03-02-2018, 05:57 PM   #190
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Okay, let's look at this particular attack as a case study.
The kid wasn't trusted to have a backpack.
He'd been reported to the FBI.
He still legally bought a gun.

The school followed all active shooter protocols, and had three armed security agents.

And...if contemporary wisdom is to be accepted, mentally ill.

Then nothing what so ever could have been done to stop this.

Grand.
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Old 03-02-2018, 06:06 PM   #191
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"Fixing" gun control won't stop shootings anytime in the foreseeable future. The guns are already out there. They're always going to be out there.
Except a good chunk of these mass shooting(at least the most dangerous ones) come from people who recently brought guns I.E the mentioned shooting, the Texas church shooting, Pulse nightclub shooting, and the fact that the shooter from the Vegas Shooting was allowed to carry over 20 guns to his room which I remind you was high enough to overlook the country hotel
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Old 03-03-2018, 01:03 PM   #192
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To backtrack a bit on a derail:

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I didn't really think of that, but wouldn't that be more of a problem for places known to be able to marry you inside of an hour, like Vegas? Is that a legitimate issue in those states?
Some food for thought on the age restrictions on marriage come from this article about people fighting to allow 13 year olds to marry with parental consent.

Kentucky's 'child bride' bill stalls as groups fight to let 13-year-olds wed

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A bill to make 18 the legal age for marriage in Kentucky has stalled in a Senate committee amid concerns about the rights of parents to allow children to wed at a younger age, according to several lawmakers.

Known as the "child bride" bill, Senate Bill 48 was pulled off the agenda just hours before a scheduled vote by the Senate Judiciary Committee for the second time in two weeks.

...

The bill's supporters have said underage marriages most often involve a teenage girl marrying an older man and may have involved sexual exploitation of the girl.

Adams, in an interview, declined to say who was lobbying against the bill other than to say it involved people concerned about parents' rights. But she said she hopes the bill can be revised to meet concerns of opponents and still have an impact on underage marriage in Kentucky.
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Old 03-05-2018, 04:11 AM   #193
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Okay, let's look at this particular attack as a case study.
The kid wasn't trusted to have a backpack.
He'd been reported to the FBI.
He still legally bought a gun.
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Old 03-05-2018, 06:45 AM   #194
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It's more like they would have had absolutely no way to know that he had legally bought a gun, because in order for them to have had that information the gun seller himself would have had to report it.

The Low-Tech Way Guns Get Traced

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They don't have that searchable, central database because the National Rifle Association and the gun lobby have successfully blocked that through Congress. They argue that a database of gun transactions would be a dangerous step toward a national gun registry.

So tracers comb through page after page of records as they stand amid boxes stacked head-high. ATF gets more than 1 million of these out-of-business records every month. And when they open those boxes of paperwork, who knows what they might find.

Houser points to a table filled with battered, burned and waterlogged gun sale records.
In certain states are bartender who over serves a patron can be held liable for that Patron after the fact. Maybe we should extend that to people who sell firearms.
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just ignore what you don't like rather than obsessing over it and move on with your life.
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Old 03-06-2018, 04:43 PM   #195
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Lawmaker Wants to 'Do Something Positive' With Proposed Violent Video Game Tax

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Do they still have age restrictions on buying video games with “M” rating? Isn’t that weird too. I mean a 16 year old can get a drivers license and drive an actual car down the road. But can’t purchase a video game that might have a virtual car if it also has mature content and corresponding rating.

However 16 is a minor so I can somehow understand the restriction being tolerated. But 18 is technically an adult. An adult old enough to vote and pay taxes. Strange a store can refuse to sell to an adult if it’s not a state or federal law such as liquor.
I found the answer to my question I asked back a few pages. Yes “M” is still a rating for video games.

And I came across this about a Rhode Island Lawmaker wanting to tax video games and give the funds to assist with mental health services and student counseling in schools.

https://www.rollingstone.com/glixel/...in-tax-w517042
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Old 03-07-2018, 10:35 AM   #196
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Well, it happened. A 20 year-old is suing Dick's over them refusing to sell him a gun.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...ies/398288002/
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Old 03-07-2018, 11:05 AM   #197
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Well, it happened. A 20 year-old is suing Dick's over them refusing to sell him a gun.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...ies/398288002/
The article won’t open for me. But last week I read New Jersey is one of the states with age discrimination laws. So I’m guessing the lawsuit is in that state?
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Old 03-07-2018, 11:06 AM   #198
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Well, it happened. A 20 year-old is suing Dick's over them refusing to sell him a gun.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...ies/398288002/
That'll help the national situation. Good thinking, kid.
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Old 03-07-2018, 11:10 AM   #199
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I kind of love how he's suing Dick's, but not like...any liquor store for not allowing him to buy booze. Or a rental car place for not letting him rent a car.

What a dickrinse.

Not only would I love to see what kind of palpable "harm" he's going to attempt portray to the court, but also who's funding his legal team.
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Old 03-07-2018, 02:03 PM   #200
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I'm sure it will be argued that drinking and driving (seperatly that is) aren't constitutionally protected rights like bearing arms.
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