Pro Wrestling Discussion

[MikeandRaph87]

Spoiler:

The botched jackhammer after both were down. That was where the match went from impressive to this needs to end before they embarrass their legacies. It's not like the Hogan vs Flair TNA prime-time match in 2009.That was a bloody embarrassment. Before the two were down and Goldberg got up first it was great from the intros to that.

[Leo656]

My wife is the world's biggest Undertaker fan/apologist.

She texted me while I was at work to tell me the match was dog sh*t and those guys should never be in the same ring again (or shouldn't have to begin with). Which is what I've been saying for weeks.

You CAN'T book a babyface vs. babyface match between two guys who never sell and "can't lose". Not 20 years ago in their prime, not now, not ever. You can't book that kind of match. It worked all of ONCE, Hogan vs. Warrior at WrestleMania VI, and that only came out well because 1. Hogan worked the match as a (subtle) heel, and 2. They rehearsed the match several times a week for almost a month until it was perfect, which generally isn't how matches are done. But they knew the match would be terrible otherwise, so they took every precaution to make it idiot-proof (or "Warrior-proof", as the case may be).

Plus, at least in that scenario you had one "ring general" in Hogan, who understands how a match should be structured and played out. Goldberg can't call a spot, let alone a match, and Undertaker used to let Kevin f*cking Nash call and carry their matches, which says a lot about what kind of "ring general" 'Taker is himself (as in, not a very good one). And that's fine; even Sting has said that he personally, for all his experience, was never the guy to carry a match, he was the guy who needed to be carried. BUT, ONE guy in the match has to be the one to carry it, and neither Goldberg OR Undertaker is the guy you get to carry a match. Not now, not 20 years ago, it's not what they're good at. They only exist to no-sell offense until it's time to hit a Finisher. And you can't book TWO of those guys against each other in the same goddamn match or it's a disaster. And here we are.

Bottom line, as someone with an appreciation for both guys, it's long past time they called it a career. And I always, ALWAYS say, "It's not my business to tell anyone when their time is up." But Goldberg - who I maintain HAD a role in the business and played that role to the hilt, and I refuse to take anything away from him for it - was never very good in the ring at his best days. And Undertaker... god, he's getting to like "Hogan vs. Piper in 1998" levels of embarrassing. Whatever "legacy" he's built is getting chipped away at every time he comes back for one more big payday and one more terrible match. Like yeah, we forgive him, but it's f*cking depressing. He's old, he's hurt, he's got nothing left to prove. Every match he performs is worse than the last one. Last time, even with goddamn Shawn Michaels to bump for him, they put on a sh*t match. It was a disaster. Nobody can safely carry his ass anymore, it's time to go home. He's either gonna get hurt or hurt someone else.

Like I said, I don't tell people "It's time to hang it up". But these two guys need to hang it up, like, a year before yesterday.

Consider that even Hogan, when asked, tells everyone that he simply can't do it anymore, regardless of the money on the table. Between his broken back and whatever pride he still has, he won't work a match, period. When THAT guy has more humility and self-awareness than guys like Undertaker, who's supposed to know better, it's very sad.

We all need money, but for f*ck's sake, enough is enough.

[ZariusTwo]

I keep thinking back to Austin's final 'Mania, especially what he said on the documentary, he was worried fans would go "man I'm glad that was his last match 'cause he sucked", his panic over putting in a bad performance put him in hospital the day of the show, but he got out and went on to have a match that just gets better with age, and then he stopped, and hasn't looked back. His legacy will be forever intact and prestine. To another extent, Foley is the same, he had diminishing returns after his original retirement, but at least they didn't "suck" and he still belted out some modern classics before quietly hanging it up.

It's a wrestling tragedy 'Taker can't bring himself to do the same. A man who always commanded respect from his peers and fans is losing every inch of it the more he wrestles. He knows it too. That look he gave after the match was a man staring hard at himself in the mirror and realising just how flawed, how mortal, he is. Legacies are not invulnerable.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

I keep thinking back to Austin's final 'Mania, especially what he said on the documentary, he was worried fans would go "man I'm glad that was his last match 'cause he sucked", his panic over putting in a bad performance put him in hospital the day of the show, but he got out and went on to have a match that just gets better with age, and then he stopped, and hasn't looked back. His legacy will be forever intact and prestine. To another extent, Foley is the same, he had diminishing returns after his original retirement, but at least they didn't "suck" and he still belted out some modern classics before quietly hanging it up.

It's a wrestling tragedy 'Taker can't bring himself to do the same. A man who always commanded respect from his peers and fans is losing every inch of it the more he wrestles. He knows it too. That look he gave after the match was a man staring hard at himself in the mirror and realising just how flawed, how mortal, he is. Legacies are not invulnerable.

Tbh Austin's neck injury really shortened his career. And also his knee careers to some extent as well. I do wonder at times how long he'd be able to go if it weren't for the injuries. Imagine Austin wrestling up until 2007 or so. He did retire at 40, though. So it's not like he retired quite young. It took him about a decade to rise to the top, after all. He wasn't that young anymore when he became the face of the WWE.

I also wonder the same thing about The Rock. What if he had stayed? But honestly, the main reason why fans have very fond memories and strong nostalgic feelings for Rock and Austin is because they've never overstayed their welcome. It's a lot easier to have a long mid-card or upper-mid card career like Kane, Jericho, Big Show and others have had than staying YEARS at the top.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Prowler

It's a lot easier to have a long mid-card or upper-mid card career like Kane, Jericho, Big Show and others have had than staying YEARS at the top.

There was a lot more variety in the main event scene at the time, if you got bored of Austin, you'd get Rock, if you got bored of Rock, you'd get Angle, if you got bored of HHH or Cena...well, tough

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

There was a lot more variety in the main event scene at the time, if you got bored of Austin, you'd get Rock, if you got bored of Rock, you'd get Angle, if you got bored of HHH or Cena...well, tough

Austin taking time off for like 10 months in 1999-2000 was probably for the best. Prevented him from cooling off quickly after the McMahon feud was finally over. And allowed the show to be built around Rock and open up new stories. Austin vs. McMahon was no longer the focus of everything.

[MikeandRaph87]

I agree with pretty much all that you said except I would like you to go into detail in how Hogan was a heel against Ultimate Warrior? Two scripted good guys can face each other, but it's hard to pull off. The Roman Reigns/John Cena bout is another example.


I love Hulkster and am a big apologist for him, but how had Bret's time not come when he had been with WWF for as long as Hulk had been when Vince brought him back?

It's not Hogan vs Flair in TNA bad either. It's not as bad as The Sandman and RVD at the local comic con either. Just let the WWE Network play their greatest hits.

[sdp]

I don't understand why Taker didn't retire after his Wrestlemania loss. Yeah, a "one more time" match could've happened, but not the next Wrestlemania, save it for a different event and with a different angle of "The deadman coming out of retirement for this one" instead of implying he's still part of the brand.

Stone Cold I do wish could have had another match but oh well, the dream match I think everyone wanted more than Sting/Undertaker was Stone Cold/Goldberg. Even if it had been a quick match, it's a shame these two bald goatee black trunks wearing wrestlers that were at the top of their brand in the attitude era never got the chance to go head to head despite it having been possible.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

I agree with pretty much all that you said except I would like you to go into detail in how Hogan was a heel against Ultimate Warrior? Two scripted good guys can face each other, but it's hard to pull off. The Roman Reigns/John Cena bout is another example.

Not full heel, but subtly "heel-ish". He fought dirtier and faked a knee injury so he could cheap-shot Warrior on the way back into the ring (although they both kind of botched the timing of the spot so it didn't come off as dramatic as it should have). Out of both guys in the match, Hogan was definitely The Dick, character-wise. Little things that workers notice more than fans do because we're trained how to manipulate the audience reaction.

It's like Nash told me: "During the match itself, one guy has to get cheered more than the other guy or the whole thing falls flat. So even if both characters are technically Heel or Face, in the context of a match itself one guy still has to work Face and the other one has to work Heel, or else the crowd won't know how to react properly and then the match is gonna suck." He pointed out how, for example, even when he was technically a Face when he worked against Bret at Survivor Series '95, for the purposes of the match itself he worked as a Heel, because 1. He was scripted to turn heel post-match anyway, and 2. The point of the match was to make sure more people cheered for Bret when it was over, and if the crowd chanted "Diesel" instead that meant they'd failed even if the match wasn't bad. Same with Hogan/Warrior; if the storyline is, "Make more people cheer for Warrior", then Hogan's role is to try and manipulate the crowd into providing that reaction, and by working a bit dirtier for that match than was his standard style in 1990, he was able to make that work. Hogan/Sting on Nitro in October 1995 was maybe a stronger and more literal example; both guys were Face but Hogan was a full-blown Heel during the match itself.

It's all about ring psychology and how to properly execute the story of a match. Guys can be whatever they want to be on the microphone, but from bell-to-bell one guy HAS to be the "good guy" and the other guy has to be the heavy. You never, EVER want a split crowd who doesn't know who to cheer for. It's okay if they do like both guys but your job is to make them genuinely want to see one guy more than the other one win. And you can't do that if neither guy wants to look "bad". One guy HAS to give the other guy heat, one guy HAS to make a big comeback... these are just simple things that every match needs to have, and you can't execute properly if there's no psychology.

There was no face or heel during the Goldberg/Undertaker match. Just two guys crashing into each other and the crowd reacting politely, and then it ended. No story outside of, "Well, here's two guys who've never touched." No drama. No emotional rollercoaster, no give-and-take, no back-and-forth... just "I do a move, then you do a move, and then we go home."

That's bad storytelling even for an indie show, but it's terrible storytelling for a PPV main event. I mean, the fact that they botched every single thing sure doesn't help one bit, but even without that misfortune, the crowd would have been flat.

I empathize to a point because they booked themselves into a corner with this match, since neither guy really can or should play a heel at this point in their career, but that's the problem, they just shouldn't have booked the match. And if they HAD to book the match, having 'Taker work heel and have Goldberg go over would be the only way to get any kind of crowd reaction greater than "polite applause". Simply because Undertaker knows how to work as a heel when necessary and Goldberg simply can't. Again, neither guy really SHOULD be working heel anymore, but even if it was just for ten minutes they could have at least managed to work the crowd up a little bit. This was nothing.

Face/Face or Heel/Heel matches CAN work, but you need some really, REALLY talented guys who know how to change their character work up on the fly in order to actually pull it off, and that's why it generally does NOT work, and should not be attempted without a game plan. They totally misfired on this one.

[member_removed]

Hey Leo656, just curious to know if you watched AEW Double or Nothing, I found that a lot of the matches on that card, lacked a face/heel dynamic. While the in ring action was great, I did feel the storytelling lack something.

[Leo656]

Nah, I didn't see it. I wish them well over there but I'm not inclined to spend money on wrestling shows anymore.

Like a lot of guys who've actually performed "in the biz", I have no love or joy for wrestling anymore. Frankly, I kind of hate it, which I was warned about before I got in, but eh, better than always wondering "What If". As is, I barely ever perform anymore and I almost never actually sit and watch anything besides a match here or there. I'm mostly just gonna kick around until all my shirts are sold and then pack it in.

To me, the wrestling business is a whore and I'm just gonna f*ck her on the side until it's not fun anymore, basically. But there ain't no love and I damn sure ain't callin' that bitch back anymore than absolutely necessary. Watching wrestling gives me a goddamn migraine anymore.

I did hear some of those criticisms about the show floating around, though.

[MikeandRaph87]

I appreciate the insight as always, Leo656.

I am glad Hogan gave up that last match push. This should speak to him as showing he made the right choice. It is also why Sting should look hard at this and even if its not the way you want to go out, it's better than what could be.


Yes, even Stone Cold can grow stale. The saving the company from invasion to leading it? I know not much talent folded in at first, but come on.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

It is also why Sting should look hard at this and even if its not the way you want to go out, it's better than what could be.

The list of things I will never let go of or forgive WWE for is longer than Santa's "Naughty/Nice" List.

But way up near the top, is the completely pointless botching of Sting's "grand entrance" into the WWE. All ANYONE wanted or cared about was a match with Undertaker, or a three-match series, and hopefully both guys retiring for good at the end of it. SO easy.

But no... let's over-book a terrible match with Triple H at WrestleMania, complete with nonsensical run-ins, so Triple H can make 100% sure that everyone knows, "WWE is SO MUCH BETTER than that company that went out of business almost 20 years ago, you guys!" And THEN let's book him with someone who's way too dangerous for a guy Sting's age to be in the ring with (Seth), have him take a f*cking sh*tty and needlessly dangerous move so he breaks his neck and can never wrestle again, all in service of... WHAT, exactly? "Getting Hunter over?" He's f*cking 90% retired! "Getting Seth over?" He was ALREADY over! "Make WCW's top babyface of all time look like absolute sh*t, just to prove what petty assholes we are 20 years past the point of anyone except Hunter and Vince still caring?" NOW we're getting somewhere.

It's bullsh*t. EVERYTHING THEY DO IS BULLSH*T. I f*cking hate Vince and Trips and that "f*cking pissant company" more than I have the vocabulary to express. When the global brand leader is also the absolute dirt-f*cking-worst of all time at presenting an acceptable product, and 99% of what goes on TV is only done to make Vince and Trips crack themselves up, there's simply no justice in this world.

Somewhere out there, in a parallel universe/alternate timeline that's much better than this one, Eric Bischoff is still running a Fusient-backed WCW out of the MGM Grand in Las Vegas, Monday Nitro is still getting 5 million viewers every Monday night, Stephanie's doing porn, and Vince and Hunter are somewhere homeless on the side of some piss-covered highway, mouth-f*cking each other while arguing over who got deeper into Shawn Michaels's ass.

Knowing that somewhere in the infinite Multiverse, THAT reality exists instead of this one, gives me a very tiny bit of comfort. But it doesn't do much to change the fact that this reality suuuuuuucks.

[MikeandRaph87]

Crisis of the Wrestleverse.

Roman Reigns got the day off because of this. Vince doesn't see he is the reason for the jab he made. It's like shooting a pot shot at someone but shooting yourself in the foot instead.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by sdp

I don't understand why Taker didn't retire after his Wrestlemania loss. Yeah, a "one more time" match could've happened, but not the next Wrestlemania, save it for a different event and with a different angle of "The deadman coming out of retirement for this one" instead of implying he's still part of the brand.

Stone Cold I do wish could have had another match but oh well, the dream match I think everyone wanted more than Sting/Undertaker was Stone Cold/Goldberg. Even if it had been a quick match, it's a shame these two bald goatee black trunks wearing wrestlers that were at the top of their brand in the attitude era never got the chance to go head to head despite it having been possible.

Yes. In fact, back in 2007-2011 or so when people wondered if the Undertaker Streak would ever end, people agreed that Taker's last match should be the eventual Streak ending one. And then the druids would pick up his "dead body" and he'd never show up on TV again.

Sad to say, but he has overstayed his welcome. It's painful to watch him go nowadays. He's kinda ruining his legacy. The irony is, back in 2002 or though he criticised Hogan for being old and not calling it quits when he should have done it already, and now voilá Taker is doing the same thing. Maybe Taker just really loves wrestling and WWE pays him well enough to keep him on doing it, who knows.

Honestly, Taker is arguably my 2nd favourite wrestler ever, but he lost a lot of his magic in the last 5 years or so. Not just with the Streak ending but also with his terrible performances since then as well. Sure, age gets to everyone but even a 50+ year old Flair was having pretty decent matches in WWE back in the 2000s. Maybe Flair was luckier with injuries, though?

As for Austin vs. Goldberg, I'm not sure that would have turned out to be a good match. Plus imagine the political headache behind the scenes. Austin's always been protective of his character, so he'd never agree to let Goldberg squash him. Thing is, Goldberg also liked having creative control and didn't like to lose either. And how do you make a beast like Goldberg lose and make it look realistic/believable enough and not let it kill his heat? Goldberg is a wrestling booker's worst nightmare.

[ZariusTwo]

Scottish wrestler and ICW champion Lionheart is dead

https://twitter.com/InsaneChampWres/...um-passes-away

[Prowler]

Is it strange that, at this point, the main reason why I still bother keeping up with WWE is to watch Alexa Bliss? I'm a big fan of her. Not only is she very easy on the eyes but she's also charismatic, great on the mic and pretty alright in the ring. WWE has often had hot chicks who can't offer anything else besides their looks, but Alexa Bliss is the full package.

[The Deadman]

NJPW Reportedly Not Trying To Build A Relationship With AEW
https://411mania.com/wrestling/njpw-...ship-with-aew/

AAA Reportedly Working On International Match With AEW For TripleMania
https://411mania.com/wrestling/aaa-r...r-triplemania/

[ZariusTwo]

Lars Sullivan is reportedly out for eight months

https://www.cagesideseats.com/wwe/20...20-knee-injury

[Krutch]

Originally Posted by Prowler

Is it strange that, at this point, the main reason why I still bother keeping up with WWE is to watch Alexa Bliss? I'm a big fan of her. Not only is she very easy on the eyes but she's also charismatic, great on the mic and pretty alright in the ring. WWE has often had hot chicks who can't offer anything else besides their looks, but Alexa Bliss is the full package.

I'd like to see how she works as a face, and if that would impact her current move set. And don't get me wrong, I love me a good DDT, but I feel there's better options for her as a finisher.