The "I never thought they/this would become as successful as they/it did" thread

[turtle1237]

Originally Posted by Leo656

It really was, but again, that Hot Spot was very brief, like a year. But at its peak there were a million toys, a live action film, a touring live-action stage show, TWO cartoon shows (the He-Man show, which had been cancelled but still constantly airing in re-runs, and the She-Ra show), magazines, comic books, children's storybooks, record albums, and an animated film. And that's just a rough breakdown. Just like TMNT at their peak, He-Man was literally "everywhere". It just didn't last as long.

Long story short, Mattel wanted to do a generic boys' action toy line and they were inspired by both Conan and Star Wars, they couldn't decide exactly which way to go with it so they combined it into one thing. It's essentially Conan, Dungeons & Dragons style stuff but there's also space ships and laser weapons and stuff like that. The earliest comics and stuff were much more Conan-inspired but then they branched it out into what most people are familiar with, which is a hybrid.

There's a ton more to it than that but that's the shortest and simplest explanation.

Again, the 1989 reboot (which was supposed to be a continuation of the original series) was just a Star Wars clone with no fantasy elements at all, and people really didn't like it because it was such a huge departure. It wasn't really too bad, but it was WAY too different. I can appreciate it for what it is now, but I absolutely couldn't stand it when I was 7.

I loved me some Bravestarr, and I REALLY hate to say this, but I felt in the end, it was Bravestarr that killed off or could not saved them. I guess he gets the blame either way. I just think the main reason He-man and co lost in the end is that GI Joe, TMNT and other Boy cartoons were more fluid in there animation and movement, were He-man, She-ra and yes even Bravestarr were as stiff as rocks lol.

[Leo656]

I think it was more like, BraveStarr was SUPPOSED to be a big hit, and Filmation bet the entire farm on it, but in the end, they seriously over-estimated how interested young boys in 1987 were in Outer Space Cowboys, and in the end it kinda killed the whole company.

I'm frankly amazed that a concept like "Outer Space Cowboys" even got a budget, let alone a series AND an animated movie. I do like BraveStarr, though. It's alright. They just seriously over-estimated its potential.

I mean c'mon... kids in the 1980s didn't even care about Regular Cowboys. I kinda wonder who the hell it was in the Filmation office who managed to convince everyone else in the room to put all their eggs in that one specific basket. So bizarre.

I kid, but I do like BraveStarr. I just... never really expected anyone else to. Not even back then.

[Mayhem]

Strength of the bear!

You know something was popular enough though if it got a home computer game here in the UK in the 80s... He-Man got a couple, TMNT were late on the scene, Usagi got one even... and yes, so did Bravestarr heh.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Saber Rider and the Star Sheriffs was another 1987 science fiction-Western attempt.

[turtle1237]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I think it was more like, BraveStarr was SUPPOSED to be a big hit, and Filmation bet the entire farm on it, but in the end, they seriously over-estimated how interested young boys in 1987 were in Outer Space Cowboys, and in the end it kinda killed the whole company.

I'm frankly amazed that a concept like "Outer Space Cowboys" even got a budget, let alone a series AND an animated movie. I do like BraveStarr, though. It's alright. They just seriously over-estimated its potential.

I mean c'mon... kids in the 1980s didn't even care about Regular Cowboys. I kinda wonder who the hell it was in the Filmation office who managed to convince everyone else in the room to put all their eggs in that one specific basket. So bizarre.

I kid, but I do like BraveStarr. I just... never really expected anyone else to. Not even back then.

Did Galaxy Rangers come before or AFTER BraveStarr? Other Space Cowboy cartoon of the 80's. Pretty sure they came out around mid 1980's were BraveStarr was late 80's almost hitting the 90's. Perhaps they should of look at that show before betting the farm on it. Now Galaxy Rangers kick ass lol. Best Space Cowboy show there ever was. Lasted 2 seasons which for a cartoon in that time line was a LONG time. I loved Miko and Goose the best.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

Saber Rider and the Star Sheriffs was another 1987 science fiction-Western attempt.

I thought i was the only one who watched that when I was a kid. I never see it getting mentioned anywhere. I barely remember it. I remember it airing here dubbed in English and one of the main characters being named Fireball or something.

[Redeemer]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Again, if you weren't there then you don't know.

If its peak had lasted longer then it's impossible to say what might have been. But that's not what happened. Again, I lived through all of it. Don't let a personal bias steer you away from Objective Fact.

The fact that TMNT had a longer boom period is a Fact, but whether it was hotter than MOTU during its peak is very debatable. All we can say with certainty is, the peak lasted longer.

TMNT also had much less competition in 1989-1991 than MOTU did between 1986-1988. So there's a lot of variables that make things tough to discern. TMNT only had Batman:TAS as its competition until the Spider-Man and X-Men cartoons took off. MOTU had at least a half-dozen popular franchises competing for air time and shelf space. So that clouds the waters quite a bit.

you.....you.....didnt give any actual facts though......
You gave anecdotal evidence and that's it

You literally gave no facts just your biased opinion. "I lived though it so I know...."

Unless you can show me actual statistical data then it just isn't true......

Bc the facts are that TMNT had more spin off media than MOTU by far! A properties ability to branch off into different media and merchandise is a strong indication of how successful a property is. You do not continually push bad property/investment.

The facts TMNT had multiple comic lines, toy line, video games, cartoons and not to mention the highest grossing indie film of all time (Until Paranormal).

MOTU did not have nearly as far reaching success its property or success in expanding in other media.

This is not a biased opinion, it's just facts.

Im not even going to discuss competition, bc from one view it bc TMNT was so big and dominant, from the other "There was nothing else good out" Its honestly a weak argument. lol your comment makes Batman sound like scrub despite the fact he has WB backing him and only put out 4 films...

[Leo656]

Okay buddy. You said yourself, "I wasn't there, but I'm pretty sure...." I'm not gonna argue it with you.

Literally Every Single Thing that was licensed for TMNT from toys to sticker books to a live-action touring production was also done for MOTU, several years earlier in fact. All of that happened, whether you want to believe it or not.

One franchise had a longer peak than the other, and thus, through sheer attrition, sold more merchandise. That's just simple math. Just like "Stone Cold" Steve Austin's wrestling character had about 15 different shirts per year produced and sold, while Hulk Hogan only had one or two per year. Who do you think sold more shirts? And do you think that data *might* be skewed a bit by the variable? It honestly says very little about who was "More Popular" in the big picture.

On franchise had a two-year peak and the other had about a 4-year peak. That doesn't change the fact that everything TMNT had and did, MOTU did first. You don't have to take my word for it, but it would be nice if you at least weren't being so obtuse. It's all online for you to research.

Originally Posted by turtle1237

Did Galaxy Rangers come before or AFTER BraveStarr?

Good question. I never followed that one so I honestly can't say.

[turtle1237]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Okay buddy. You said yourself, "I wasn't there, but I'm pretty sure...." I'm not gonna argue it with you.

Literally Every Single Thing that was licensed for TMNT from toys to sticker books to a live-action touring production was also done for MOTU, several years earlier in fact. All of that happened, whether you want to believe it or not.

One franchise had a longer peak than the other, and thus, through sheer attrition, sold more merchandise. That's just simple math. Just like "Stone Cold" Steve Austin's wrestling character had about 15 different shirts per year produced and sold, while Hulk Hogan only had one or two per year. Who do you think sold more shirts? And do you think that data *might* be skewed a bit by the variable? It honestly says very little about who was "More Popular" in the big picture.

On franchise had a two-year peak and the other had about a 4-year peak. That doesn't change the fact that everything TMNT had and did, MOTU did first. You don't have to take my word for it, but it would be nice if you at least weren't being so obtuse. It's all online for you to research.



Good question. I never followed that one so I honestly can't say.

I give He-man a 2 year run at its peak. But I am sure the turtles had a way LONGER peak than 4 years. I think the run lasted from 1987-to about 1993 with the 3rd movie. Perhaps if you want a end, maybe 1996 when the first series ended. Which would make that peak 9 years.

[Leo656]

I definitely don't count anything after 1992 as part of the peak. Nor anything before 1989.

[turtle1237]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I definitely don't count anything after 1992 as part of the peak. Nor anything before 1989.

Why not before 1989? The show and toys were making lots of money in 87. Granted all we had were the 4 Turtles, Splinter, April, a Foot, Shredder, and Bebop and Rockstandy. But Turtle Mania was there in 87 and 88.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Nor anything before 1989.

[Leo656]

Fair point, maybe 1988 counts in there as well. I'd have to check and I don't have the ability to do so at the moment, but it's very possible.

When I refer to "peak years" I mostly mean "The years during which a brand could legitimately say it was either #1 or #2 in the marketplace". Obviously there are several years in which TMNT can say that, but I'm pretty sure none of those years were post-Power Rangers. As for when the peak started, I'm quite certain they were on top by 1989 at the latest, not entirely sure about before then. I know it took a bit for the momentum to fully build after the TV show launched. They weren't the New Biggest Thing literally overnight, after all.

But they definitely hung in there a lot longer than most things do. On that, I think we all agree. For around 4-5 years I think only Batman came close to TMNT in popularity, and even then it was neck-and-neck. Not bad company to be in, all things considered.

I loathed Power Rangers, though, so seeing TMNT be "dethroned" by them was maddening. So add Power Rangers to my personal list of "Things I Never Thought Would Be So Successful". To me, MMPR was just a live-action, sh*ttier version of Voltron. I knew TMNT wouldn't be on top forever but seeing MMPR be the thing to take the top spot away really stung.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I definitely don't count anything after 1992 as part of the peak. Nor anything before 1989.

I'd say that's accurate. With SOTO probably being basically the last big Turtlemania hit.

So yeah, 1989-1990 would be the absolute peak years of the Turtlemania phenomenon, I'd say. The first NES game came out in 1989 iirc and sold about 4M copies worldwide. No TMNT video game has come close since then nor will any other TMNT game ever outsell it.

Originally Posted by Leo656

Fair point, maybe 1988 counts in there as well. I'd have to check and I don't have the ability to do so at the moment, but it's very possible.

When I refer to "peak years" I mostly mean "The years during which a brand could legitimately say it was either #1 or #2 in the marketplace". Obviously there are several years in which TMNT can say that, but I'm pretty sure none of those years were post-Power Rangers. As for when the peak started, I'm quite certain they were on top by 1989 at the latest, not entirely sure about before then. I know it took a bit for the momentum to fully build after the TV show launched. They weren't the New Biggest Thing literally overnight, after all.

But they definitely hung in there a lot longer than most things do. On that, I think we all agree. For around 4-5 years I think only Batman came close to TMNT in popularity, and even then it was neck-and-neck. Not bad company to be in, all things considered.

I loathed Power Rangers, though, so seeing TMNT be "dethroned" by them was maddening. So add Power Rangers to my personal list of "Things I Never Thought Would Be So Successful". To me, MMPR was just a live-action, sh*ttier version of Voltron. I knew TMNT wouldn't be on top forever but seeing MMPR be the thing to take the top spot away really stung.

Never cared about Power Rangers myself. Funny enough(here I go saying this again!) I had a toy of the green ranger when I was a kid. Just like I had a Spider-man and a Venom action figures when I was a kid despite not caring for those characters either. I played with those toys a lot nonetheless. I was a kid. All I wanted were toys and videogames. As long as my parents didn't buy be Barbie dolls I'd be up for anything.


As for 90s phenomenons after TMNT... DBZ and Pokémon definitely. DBZ definitely peaked here in like 1995-1997. Then it came the Pokémon craze. After Gen II of Pokémon I lost track and I have no idea if there ever was another property peaking to such heights. Yu-Gi-Oh and Beyblade held the interest of kids from my own generation for a few months, but they weren't as big as TMNT, DBZ or Pokémon in their prime, not at all.

I guess by the time we entered the current millennium we've gotten a much wider variety of choices when it comes to entertainment and it became harder for there to be a single mega-phenomenon that stood out above everything else like TMNT in 1989-1992 and DBZ and Pokémon in the 90s.

[Redeemer]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Okay buddy. You said yourself, "I wasn't there, but I'm pretty sure...." I'm not gonna argue it with you.

Literally Every Single Thing that was licensed for TMNT from toys to sticker books to a live-action touring production was also done for MOTU, several years earlier in fact. All of that happened, whether you want to believe it or not.

One franchise had a longer peak than the other, and thus, through sheer attrition, sold more merchandise. That's just simple math. Just like "Stone Cold" Steve Austin's wrestling character had about 15 different shirts per year produced and sold, while Hulk Hogan only had one or two per year. Who do you think sold more shirts? And do you think that data *might* be skewed a bit by the variable? It honestly says very little about who was "More Popular" in the big picture.

On franchise had a two-year peak and the other had about a 4-year peak. That doesn't change the fact that everything TMNT had and did, MOTU did first. You don't have to take my word for it, but it would be nice if you at least weren't being so obtuse. It's all online for you to research.



Good question. I never followed that one so I honestly can't say.

No reason to get angry over this. I will say this again for the third time I do not take anecdotal evidence from anyone!!!! Bc its biased and not statistically backed. I literally just can't believe that MOTU is bigger bc it was not able to expand into other forms of media like TMNT was. TMNT highest ever grossing independent film of its time and then released two more movies, it also had very successful video game run as well. MOTU was never able to do any of those things which is why I don't believe it.

But like I said I wasn't there thats why I look at facts and statistics. I can't find statistics lol but I am just looking at the facts. Sorry if I upset you, it's not my goal, but I don't take people at their word when talking about anecdotal or personal observation.

Edit: lol wow we have really derailed this thread haha.

[turtle1237]

Originally Posted by Prowler

I see. He-Man as before my time, and unlike Speed Racer or FW TMNT, they never aired reruns of it in my country afaik. So I never got the chance to see it. I only know the "by the power of grey skull" quote, pretty much.

I lived in America, and I can comment on Speed Racer lol. It does show up on air from time to time. It ran in the 90's, ran again when the Speed Racer movie came out(I loved the film even with the hate) and even ran a bit during the reboot series in what? the early 2010's?

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Redeemer

No reason to get angry over this. I will say this again for the third time I do not take anecdotal evidence from anyone!!!! Bc its biased and not statistically backed. I literally just can't believe that MOTU is bigger bc it was not able to expand into other forms of media like TMNT was. TMNT highest ever grossing independent film of its time and then released two more movies, it also had very successful video game run as well. MOTU was never able to do any of those things which is why I don't believe it.

But like I said I wasn't there thats why I look at facts and statistics. I can't find statistics lol but I am just looking at the facts. Sorry if I upset you, it's not my goal, but I don't take people at their word when talking about anecdotal or personal observation.

Edit: lol wow we have really derailed this thread haha.

Nobody is angry. But I am a little irritated that something that's easily researched and verified is being obstinately refuted simply because you weren't there to witness it, which you admitted yourself.

This is the statement I made which you apparently took offense, or at least umbrage to:

Originally Posted by Leo656

Objectively, He-Man "mania" was probably bigger than "Turtlemania" at its peak but that peak didn't last very long at all.

Note the "probably". I never said "Absolutely, definitely". As well as where I said, several times, that even if it WAS true, it was only that big for a very brief time. I never disputed that TMNT had a much longer "run". But again, EVERY SINGLE THING that was licensed and merchandised for TMNT was ALSO done for MOTU, several years earlier. MOTU was in fact one of the very FIRST brands to have such a wide range of merchandise and memorabilia. You name any singular product that had a TMNT sticker on it, and I'm telling you, because I was there, that there was ALSO a product that had a He-Man sticker on it. 1-to-1.

You seem very hung up on the fact that there was only one He-Man movie, compared to three TMNT movies. Well, there was originally supposed to be at least one more He-Man movie, if that makes you feel any better. Much has been written about Why it didn't happen, but ultimately, the "peak" was over with and they didn't see any reason to do it. Which doesn't change anything that I've said. Which was that at its own "peak" - and admittedly for a Much Shorter Time - a strong case could be made that MOTU was in fact more popular than TMNT. BUT AGAIN, we're talking about a one-year peak window Vs. a four-year peak window. TMNT still "wins" in the long run, so... even if MOTU was a bigger deal for that short period... So What? Why would that seem to upset you, to the point where you find it completely ridiculous? That's what I can't quite comprehend.

I'm not a number-cruncher. I won't even pretend to compare the dollar-for-dollar conversion between what MOTU brought in in 1986 vs. what TMNT brought in in 1990 (arguably the Top Years for their respective franchises). All I Said Was, "MOTU was arguably even more popular than TMNT, at one very brief period of time." You said that was ridiculous, but also that you weren't there. I said, "I was, and no, it's not at all ridiculous."

It is impossible to say what could have gone differently, because those things didn't happen. Could MOTU have had as long of a Hot Streak? Yeah, in theory, IF G.I. Joe and Transformers and Ghostbusters never caught on, but they did, and they subsequently ate up more than half of the market that MOTU had once claimed. TMNT had NOTHING as popular as G.I. Joe and Transformers to compete with, and I strongly feel that things like that should be factored into the larger discussion. It doesn't change anything, BUT, it's still information, which can be quantified, studied, and discussed. Would MOTU have had another few "big" years, and a couple more movies, if things were different? Sure, maybe. Would TMNT have been as popular as it was if it had any real "competition" before Power Rangers? We really can't say, because that's not what happened.

Rest assured, I'm not angry, but again, what I've suggested isn't anywhere near as outlandish and ridiculous as you make it sound, and it would be nice if you could remain objective about the subject. MOTU, at one time, had between 60 and 80% of the market for boys' toys, depending on which numbers you go by. 80%! Did TMNT ever have 80% of the market? Possibly, I never bothered to dig into it. I just know that the similarities between the brands run far deeper than you may think, and it's all out there in black and white for anyone who wishes to read about it.
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Topic derailed perhaps, but indeed, "discussion" is ultimately the point of a "discussion board". So long as it remains civil. I'm not here to start a war, merely to help educate and enlighten. What people choose to do with the information is ultimately their own business.

Originally Posted by turtle1237

I lived in America, and I can comment on Speed Racer lol. It does show up on air from time to time. It ran in the 90's, ran again when the Speed Racer movie came out(I loved the film even with the hate) and even ran a bit during the reboot series in what? the early 2010's?

"Speed Racer" was the best movie to come out that year and one of the greatest cartoon-to-film adaptations of all time. Anyone who would disagree eats lead paint and should be dismissed as a philistine.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Actually, I don't think He-Man was ever really "bigger/as big" as TMNT at any point. Did thet have merchandise? Sure, but how much of it actually ever SOLD? Because I only remember seeing very little of it anywhere, and a lot of what was out there just sort of sat on shelves. It was never quite the huge phenomenon as TMNT, in spite of having many of the same media outlets. It just didn't have the same relatable appeal, and was more geared toward older kids, who were already outgrowing much of the type of merchandise it had anyway. And I say this as a fan of both, as well as having lived through (ie, being old enough to remember) BOTH frachises' entire runs. Among a certain subset of kids (boys 8-10), He-Man was huge, for about a year or so. But NEVER as huge as TMNT, which was so pervasive you couldn't walk into a store anywhere without seeing or tripping over something TMNT. Or hearing a kid ask for something TMNT. He-Man just didn't get the same exposure, in spite of having everything from lunchboxes to underwear.

[Leo656]

You could, y'know, bother looking it up, but whatever.

60-80% of the market for boys toys between 1984 and 1986, depending on whose numbers you go by (truth is probably in the median), and the highest-rated (meaning most-watched) TV show of the mid-1980s. But sure. They didn't sell any product. It wasn't "that popular".

If you weren't there, weren't a boy, or weren't paying attention, then sure, you wouldn't know. FACT: Toys R Us used to devote entire aisles to housing just He-Man toys at many of their stores. The brand was SO popular that they had in-store appearances of in-costume MOTU characters as a way to get even more people into the stores (Sound familiar? It should, as TMNT were used for in-store appearances to the same effect many years later... as a sign of the brand's popularity). And they didn't give the brand that much real estate on the shelves just in 1986, but for the 2002 re-launch, as well (although that only lasted the first month of the relaunch, as it was only planned for the launch itself, whereas it was simply the regular order of things in 1986). You don't just make an entire aisle of your store "The ______ Aisle" throughout the entire country and much of the civilized world, and keep it that way for several YEARS, unless the toys f*cking sell a lot of product. Hooooly SH*T. Wow.

Facts are Facts, it is what it is. Like the fact that this conversation is happening on a TMNT board means there's a confirmation bias issue whether anyone cares to admit it or not. You want your favorite thing to "win" the conversation, so any data that doesn't correlate to what you prefer to accept is dismissed. But the truth is The Truth whether it fits what you want to hear or not.

Not only was the MOTU brand of comparable popularity to the TMNT brand, for one (albeit brief) moment, it was objectively probably more popular in that brief moment. I'm Very Sorry if that upsets you. Again, it was for a year at most, so Your Brand still "wins" by the criteria you've chosen to apply for overall "success". But ignoring easily-researched and provable facts just makes a person look ignorant. MOTU absolutely WAS as popular, and for "5 minutes", possibly bigger. This shouldn't even be up for debate when it's so easy to look up. I haven't been there for years, but he-man.org used to host many, many contemporary news articles that were published in multiple magazines and newspapers between 1982 and 1988, discussing the overwhelming popularity of the MOTU brand (as well as openly wondering if it could ever run out of steam - "Spoiler", it did), and I assume they probably still do. Anyone interested in extending the conversation beyond "Nuh uh!" could easily do their own research if they wanted.

Am I expecting that? No. I absolutely don't expect anyone here to actually research anything that could possibly disprove their pre-existing opinions on a subject they know little about. The next time would be the first time, and I know the temperature of this place by now.

"I don't know, man. Doesn't sound right to me." Alright, then just go and read.

Here. I jumped on Google for two seconds and immediately found a news article from 1984 that disproves every single point in your post, from the age group it was popular with (you say "older kids", facts say 4-9 year olds) to the idea that the brand "lacked universal appeal" (30% of He-Man's audience was GIRLS, and parents loved it too).

https://www.nytimes.com/1984/12/18/n...oy-market.html

The equivalent of 1.7 dolls sold for every child in America. Over $1 billion in revenue within the first two years. Toys selling out within a single day of hitting store shelves. A cartoon that aired in 37 countries and was the highest-rated in the United States, airing on over 160 stations during its peak. "No, it really wasn't a big deal. Certainly not very popular at all." Only it was. It was a huge deal. Sorry you missed it. Sincerely.

That's one article. I'm sure there are dozens. Have fun. I'm sure it's all very boring, but again, facts are what they are. And lies are vulgar.

Knowledge Is Power, folks.
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To the actual topic, and since I know there's a lot of fans of it here, I must confess that I never expected Pokemon to explode like it did, nor to still be running along today as strong as it is. It doesn't bother me, I just never got into it. It seemed to me in 1997 like something kids might get bored with quickly, but I guess since there's a strong cooperative and interactive component it makes it easy to keep fresh for each new group of young kids that comes along. I gotta say, for something I'm not at all into, I admire the longevity of it. That one definitely surprised me.

[Mayhem]

Originally Posted by turtle1237

Did Galaxy Rangers come before or AFTER BraveStarr? Other Space Cowboy cartoon of the 80's. Pretty sure they came out around mid 1980's were BraveStarr was late 80's almost hitting the 90's. Perhaps they should of look at that show before betting the farm on it. Now Galaxy Rangers kick ass lol. Best Space Cowboy show there ever was. Lasted 2 seasons which for a cartoon in that time line was a LONG time. I loved Miko and Goose the best.

Galaxy Rangers broadcast before Bravestarr (late 86 versus mid 87) but they were both in production at the same time, and thus probably had no idea of any crossover. GR was also very much designed to be anime like iirc.