Fate of the Mirage TMNT

[rs_jr]

Hi

With Last Ronin coming out and I am not sure if they mentioned if it is in Mirage future of not?

Is it assumed that Turtle in Last Ronin is Don?

Did the Mirage comics ever mention or imply what happened to each Turtle?

I though Don was the last one around and did Mikey disappear into space or am I nit remembering things correctly?

Old Ralph ended up training new generation of Mutants but that was from the Palidum books i thinks.

Did Leo just die from old age, was it swan song?

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by rs_jr

With Last Ronin coming out and I am not sure if they mentioned if it is in Mirage future of not?

No. It's supposed to be a potential future for almost any TMNT universe.

Did the Mirage comics ever mention or imply what happened to each Turtle?

I though Don was the last one around and did Mikey disappear into space or am I nit remembering things correctly?

Old Ralph ended up training new generation of Mutants but that was from the Palidum books i thinks.

Did Leo just die from old age, was it swan song?

Check out "TMNT: Odyssey."

[Shred87]

Very late to party but is there any way to get a hard copy of odyssey?

[Diorm]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-Ninja-...wAAOSwNXtcLBxg

[Shred87]

Guess online will have to do... wasn’t expecting it to be over 100 bucks

[DK2]

Kevin has mainly implied Last Ronin is more Mirage than any other TMNT incarnations. Since the story outline was made during their Mirage days and Peter is getting credit I think that's safe to say. But he also says any readers or fans for Last Ronin can deem it for any TMNT incarnations' future too. We can't dwell on any of the dangling plots from Mirage volume 4 that I think your referring to rs_jr. We have no closure for that run. Last Ronin is really more of a "what if" or "elseworlds" for the turtles. Yes there were some Mirage shorts that had Don as the last turtle. Hard to say if it's Don for Last Ronin though.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by DK2

We can't dwell on any of the dangling plots from Mirage volume 4 that I think your referring to rs_jr. We have no closure for that run.

Is it Too Soon to say "F*ck Mirage Vol. 4 right in the ear", or can we just go ahead and say that, officially? Because I pretty much always said that, but with time and hindsight as factors, especially... yeah, f*ck that mess.

[Zog The Magnificent]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Is it Too Soon to say "F*ck Mirage Vol. 4 right in the ear", or can we just go ahead and say that, officially? Because I pretty much always said that, but with time and hindsight as factors, especially... yeah, f*ck that mess.

Are you meaning in terms of ever seeing a conclusion, or in terms of even wanting a conclusion?

As for me, yeah the story is kinda messy. There's a lot of good individual elements, and the overall story is fairly interesting, but it takes far too long for anything to actually happen, and a lot of what does happen never seems to go anywhere productive. I feel like it's sort of like the Prequel Trilogy, which had a good story overall but lost a bunch of points in the actual execution. Though despite that, I still hope somebody finishes it one day. I do SO hate loose ends. When it comes to anything, I'd rather have a bad ending than no ending.

[Leo656]

This is Mirage TMNT Vol. 4, summarized in 20 seconds.



BUT, I'll go into far greater depth because that's what I do.

I stopped expecting or caring about any kind of satisfactory conclusion very quickly because it was a rambling, meandering mess from A-to-G. I say "A-to-G" because it was perfectly obvious that "Z" was never gonna f*cking happen! And they didn't even pretend to get close, either.

I could pull anything out of thin air, like "April The Time-Traveling, Roach-F*cking Magical Drawing", but that's a well-flogged horse. The whole Volume was just a gigantic exercise in wasted potential that went nowhere, circled back, then went even more "nowhere" than before.

I just said this to someone the other day, but most of Vol. 4 could have just been done as solo mini-series for various characters... which they later did, anyway. Here's a basic tip: If your story has become SO disconnected that you need four simultaneous solo mini's to actually move things even two measly inches forward, plot-wise, then you've completely lost sight of what's important. And charging four bucks a pop during a recession was absolutely brilliant considering that inside the book, nothing ever happened. And then when something did happen, like Splinter dying, it had all the dramatic weight of someone announcing they were gonna go take a leak. Just nothing. Totally didn't feel like a total waste of my time and money, seriously. Not at all.

For me, Vol. 4 was a mix between "the print version of Ambien" and "Chuck Austen writes better f*cking comics than this and he's CHUCK AUSTEN." I can't remember anything truly, sincerely good past the first issue; just "Meh" and "WOW, that's awful." Like, if you told me that Peter Laird was secretly an alien who had no understanding whatsoever about human emotions, and how to either display or manipulate them, I would totally, totally believe you. I'm sure he's a very nice guy and I'm grateful for what he initially helped create with the TMNT, but good Lord, his writing is as dry and flavorless as a Saltine-and-Rice Cracker sandwich. I know it was his passion and "his vision", but if you're gonna have the audacity to charge $4 a shot during an economic downturn, "your vision" better have some goddamn sizzle or else you're just jerking off.

And I don't especially enjoy paying to watch people jerk off, either literally or metaphorically. But that's what Vol. 4 was. "Peter Laird jerks off for 30-something issues, then gets bored, sells the property, and then goes to take a nap, thus rendering the entirety of Vol. 4 completely f*cking pointless."
-----------------------

All of that said, though, I too would love an ending, even though I didn't like the series. Because I, too, hate unfinished business and stories that don't get to conclude. And frankly, I'd settle for a bad ending. The series wasn't good, so nothing could really do much to significantly "damage" it retroactively. A good ending that ties the entire Mirage saga together in some satisfactory way would be ideal, but also unlikely and I'd settle for literally any ending. Because ANY ending would at least give Vol. 4 a reason to exist, whereas otherwise, it really has none. Outside of, "It allowed Tales of the TMNT Vol. 2 to exist, which was about 100x better than Vol. 4 in every single possible way."

In summation: Mirage TMNT Vol. 4 is definitely, absolutely not even close to being the worst comic I've ever followed. Not even close. It's not even "bad", per se. But it's definitely one of the ones that most made me feel like a total moron for ever caring about it, because I went into it wanting to love it and was given no reason to even care about it. I "did my part for The Franchise" and gave Pete my money; in return, ALL I got was a giant pile of paper, ink, and staples, and very little else.

Tales Vol. 2 was awesome, though.

[DK2]

Yeah to me the TMNT Vol.2 and Vol. 4 series were the slow paced stories. The good issues/main narrative of Vol. 1 and Vol. 3 from Image were the stories with better pace. I clearly think Kevin and Peter complimented each other working together. But on their own its really a mixed bag. Even the initial solo issues in the number 12,14,15,17,18 shows them in that light. Kevin was the action/choreography guy and Peter was the sci-fi/laid back guy. Them writing stories since they weren't really comics pros shows when they work solo. Together they compliment each other. No editor guiding or training them since they were Mirage themselves. Maybe they'd be better writers or storytellers if they had a guided hand in those days? Just my thoughts.

[TMNachoT]

Originally Posted by DK2

Kevin has mainly implied Last Ronin is more Mirage than any other TMNT incarnations. Since the story outline was made during their Mirage days and Peter is getting credit I think that's safe to say. But he also says any readers or fans for Last Ronin can deem it for any TMNT incarnations' future too. We can't dwell on any of the dangling plots from Mirage volume 4 that I think your referring to rs_jr. We have no closure for that run. Last Ronin is really more of a "what if" or "elseworlds" for the turtles. Yes there were some Mirage shorts that had Don as the last turtle. Hard to say if it's Don for Last Ronin though.

But that was way before Peter wrote vol. 4, so i am pretty sure when Pete wrote the stories for such issue, he did not take that last runin story in consideration, at least he never mentioned the last ronin when creating vol. 4 so yes, we can say this is some kind of elseworlds thing or something not related to Mirage.

[Galactus]

I must admit his TMNT Adventures art I've always found severely lacking. As a kid I rarely took notice of the credits in the comics I read so you could have blowed me down with a feather when I realised it was the same guy that did that and the 1990 movie adaption. One was clearly so much better than the other.

I first clocked it was the same guy with the Secret Of The Ooze adaption. It was a weird hybrid of his Adventures and 1990 movie adaption style. Granted the drop in quality could be due to the lack of Peter and Kevin assisting him but he's done great looking work on his own like Sons Of The Silent Age and Tales V.1 without them so I would largely put it down to that the animated series in which Adventures was based and Secret Of The Ooze were 'silly' versions of the property so he adjusted his art accordingly.

It's strange that his art would develop down those lines but I also wonder if time was a factor too. As in he had to crank out a lot of stuff very quickly he developed a more abstract style that he he could knock out as fast like Jack Kirby ended up doing.

In regards to his quality being dependent on who inks him many a comic artist had had their work enhanced or ruined by inkers. When Lawson inks his own work or paired by someone who sticks very rigidly to his original pencils you at least get Lawson's strengths; as has been said before what he draws well he draws really well but most of the time he gets an inker that puts something of their own drawing style over the top of it and some like Laird fit well with him whereas Talbot does not.

I get you wanting things on model but there were plenty of unique looking depictions of the turtles out there back then. The action figure box art being an even more stylised version of the comic book art, video game box art etc It never really bugged me if licensed characters looked different as long as they were still recognisable.

Anyway I've lectured you enough on this (sorry I'm bored stuck inside all day) but ya like whatcha like but just offering you a different perspective.

[Leo656]

I may have more patience for the conversation if I had not put my fist through a door earlier this afternoon.

Thank you for keeping our difference of opinion respectful. It is much appreciated.

[AquaParade]

I enjoy the fate of the Mirage characters being sort of ambiguous. I get such a thrill out of seeing those melancholy glimpses into the future. The little bit of info we have to go off of stokes the imagination. A lot of the "short stories" are good at this.

[Leo656]

Yeah, and that's well and fair. I myself don't much like it when they do Superman or Batman stories which present "Official Endings" to their journey, for example, because I feel like it limits storytelling by setting a predetermined endpoint that has to be built towards. I don't necessarily need to know how Bruce Wayne's gonna die and have that story be set in stone, or whether Superman's gonna be alive in the 30th Century, or whatever. There's some fun in not knowing and being able to just imagine all the different possibilities. Kingdom Come, for example. One of my favorite DC stories ever. Should it be canon? Oh, Lord no. And neither should "Dark Knight Returns", no matter how many Batman fans insist otherwise.

But I feel like Mirage Vol. 4 could have had ANY ending at all and it would have improved the entire series just by virtue of that. It didn't necessarily need to "close the book" on Mirage TMNT, and definitely didn't need to explicitly explain how the saga would end for everyone, but it at least could have done more than just gotten up and left in mid-sentence.

It's a like a guy running a marathon and deciding 2/3s of the way through it that he'd rather go play ping-pong. Why did you even show up, man? At least finish what you start.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Yeah, and that's well and fair. I myself don't much like it when they do Superman or Batman stories which present "Official Endings" to their journey, for example, because I feel like it limits storytelling by setting a predetermined endpoint that has to be built towards. I don't necessarily need to know how Bruce Wayne's gonna die and have that story be set in stone, or whether Superman's gonna be alive in the 30th Century, or whatever. There's some fun in not knowing and being able to just imagine all the different possibilities. Kingdom Come, for example. One of my favorite DC stories ever. Should it be canon? Oh, Lord no. And neither should "Dark Knight Returns", no matter how many Batman fans insist otherwise.

But I feel like Mirage Vol. 4 could have had ANY ending at all and it would have improved the entire series just by virtue of that. It didn't necessarily need to "close the book" on Mirage TMNT, and definitely didn't need to explicitly explain how the saga would end for everyone, but it at least could have done more than just gotten up and left in mid-sentence.

It's a like a guy running a marathon and deciding 2/3s of the way through it that he'd rather go play ping-pong. Why did you even show up, man? At least finish what you start.

Yeah, I'd agree with this. I think Volume 4 is sort of it's own story that deserves to be wrapped up, despite how far (or not) it reaches into the future of the Mirage timeline.

[rs_jr]

I guess I don’t really want s definite ending I just want the story to move forward.

Finish volume 4 and launch after it a volume 5 and a Tales volume 3 and continue the mirage universe on a regular schedule.

[rs_jr]

I do love to see Lawson come back on a new ongoing mirage TMNT but with some much TMNT coming out of IDW not sure it will sell well plus they probably have to collect volume 4 first so people are caught up

[Leo656]

Can someone actually "sell" me on Jim Lawson?

Like, seriously. I don't get it. He can't draw. Or at least, he can't draw humanoid figures or faces with anything less than the clumsy grace of a well-meaning first-grader. Most people who gush over him tell me openly that they don't read other comic books, which tells me that his art is "good" because they like TMNT and he draws it, but not for much other reason.

I can't think of a single artist on a popular or licensed book whose work was more "ugly". Okay, his dinosaurs are neat, but otherwise...

I mean I'm not trying to be mean, I just don't think the guy's stuff is even a little bit eye-pleasing and it baffles me that so many people love it. And when a lot of them tell me, "Well, I don't read other comics," it kinda makes me assume a lot.

I'unno. I probably won't change my opinion ever, but I'd love for someone to honestly try and explain what it is that makes him so special. He's the objective worst guy out of the entire Mirage crew to draw the main-story books, but he's the guy everyone wants. Why not, like, literally anyone else from Mirage? Consistency? That's dumb. Comics should be eye-pleasing.

Probably a nice guy. No hard feelings, no ill will towards him as a human being. I just really, truly find his art physically painful to look at, and I'd like to know what I'm supposedly missing.

((Shrug))

[Zog The Magnificent]

Yeah, I honestly don't get it. I actually think his art looked way better during City at War, but then he developed his "modern style," which at this point just doesn't look good. I mean, he can draw nature and creatures just fine, but he can't draw human beings. It's very stylized, to the point of being incredibly misshapen and off looking. The only reason he's still around for things is out of tradition's sake at this point. I won't say that it's ugly or the worst art ever, as there were some TMNT short stories that looked worse. That one where they talk about fear, for example. It's not even ugly, persay, it's just unappealing. I can build a resistance to this art, but truly ugly art I don't even want to look at. I've always believed that the story should come before the asthetics, and Jim Lawson is a great example of why. At the very least, having Jim Lawson does make it feel authentic, because like it or not that is what a lot of official TMNT comics looked like.