How kind do you think History will be to this show?

[Prowler]

So now we're on the 4th TMNT animated series. The FW and the first Nick series were more popular than the 2k3 series, as we know. That doesn't mean the 2k3 series wasn't somewhat popular, mind you, but clearly not as big as the Nick series and much less the FW series.

So far, this series seems to be rather forgotten in comparison to other Turtles stuff out there. I mean, the FW series obviously comes 1st in line. Then probably comes the 1990 movie, or the original trilogy together. Then the Nick series and the Bay movies, probably? And since Rise is a current thing, I'm guessing it's rather popular atm as well?

So yeah, the 2k3 series definitely seems a bit forgotten in comparison to other TMNT stuff that has come out since before and since the end of it. It's kind of a shame, imo, because I think it was a pretty good cartoon series overall, despite having its high and low points.

I'm hoping that, in some years from now on, this show will at least get some sort of cult following. It's not uncommon for older shows and movies that weren't THAT big of a deal at the time getting some sort of cult following a couple of decades or so later because suddenly old fans decided to rewatch it and post about their experiences online, and thus converting new generations to it.

So it seems that TMNT 2k3, as it stands, is generally viewed as:

1) Being less successful than the FW and the Nick series, due to the limitations of 4Kids in comparison to Fred Wold and Viacom/Nick when it comes to promoting it. A lot of people to this day have NO IDEA that 2k3 even existed in the first place. And the fact it's hard as hell to collect it on DVD to this day doesn't help it either.

2) Held dear by many fans for being closer to the comics than the other series and also for being the most serious one in tone overall, despite still being a kids' cartoon series.

So yeah, at this point, History hasn't been too kind on it when it comes to remembering this series existed. It's like it's being ignored. When it ended people were like "oh ok it's over". No one outside the fans of the series truly cared or noticed. But on the other hand, the fans this series had truly loved this series and remember it fondly. So it's more like it's underwatched instead of underrated. It's going down as a forgotten gem from the time period it was on.

Also, it being the return of TMNT to TV was kind of a mixed bag to people. People expected FW v2.0 and many didn't like it for being so different from the Turtles they grew up with. Let's remember that most of the world doesn't even know about Mirage's existence. 2k3 and its movie, TMNT (2007), were the least similar animated pieces to FW of the property. So History hasn't been that kind on it in this respect either.

One can never tell the future, so who knows if Viacom/Nick won't sell the TMNT property 20 years from now on and perhaps whoever comes to own the TMNT property by then won't try and make a cartoon more similar to 2k3 or give it a proper DVD release?

Thoughts?

[MikeandRaph87]

I hold three things against this particular show,but its the second best product to ever come out and the best in terms of continuity and plot development. What I hold against it is 1. No other media characters appeared only Mirage or original 2. Shredder and Rat King were not humans while TMNT already lack human adversaries and 3. Michelangelo was forced by Peter Laird to take on the entirety of the humor which handicapped his potential and made a fun loving character into an annoying pest.

It is true that the TMNT (2003) cartoon era was quite low-key despite seven seasons and a decent toy selection along with a CGI film yet once the sale happened it ended and it faded away with exception to Turtles Forever which did not understand the 1987 cartoon at all. Its not like Turtlemania or a more allowed nostalgia that began with the 25th anniversary,but it saved TMNT from being dead. One problem is technology was just transitioning to season sets for current shows as soon as the season ends while the show was airing. It started with a few episode volume and then season halves and never truly got full distribution. The sale of the intellectual property happened, DVD sales were mediocre, and technology was not ready when the show started to release proper season DVDs. While this hampered it I hoped as time passed it would be rectified. Its an overlooked gem overall and does not get the appreciation it should.

[CyberCubed]

History is VERY kind.

[Leo656]

The 2003 show will ultimately be remembered as, "That one time the Powers That Be foolishly tried to present TMNT as something NOT completely ridiculous and silly, which is why it's forgotten. Because we all know TMNT is about pizza, Cowabunga, and being unrelentingly goofy."

Because whenever it does get mentioned in any kind of article or media, that's pretty much already how it's described. "It failed because it missed the point of TMNT." As usual, I have strong disagreement with those people as to what is a "correct" interpretation, but, also as usual, am outvoted. But I don't see the collective opinion ever changing.

People react most strongly to TMNT when it's silly. 2003 TMNT wasn't silly enough, thus it was "a failure". I don't agree, but that's the accepted narrative.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by Leo656

The 2003 show will ultimately be remembered as, "That one time the Powers That Be foolishly tried to present TMNT as something NOT completely ridiculous and silly, which is why it's forgotten. Because we all know TMNT is about pizza, Cowabunga, and being unrelentingly goofy."

Because whenever it does get mentioned in any kind of article or media, that's pretty much already how it's described. "It failed because it missed the point of TMNT." As usual, I have strong disagreement with those people as to what is a "correct" interpretation, but, also as usual, am outvoted. But I don't see the collective opinion ever changing.

People react most strongly to TMNT when it's silly. 2003 TMNT wasn't silly enough, thus it was "a failure". I don't agree, but that's the accepted narrative.

Well put. Tbh the only reason TMNT 2k3 turned out like it was in the first place was because Peter laird had creative control and power of vetoing scripts.

[Powder]

Those who grew up with it speak very highly of it & always crawl up the official TMNT social media pages' butts to inquire about it one way or another. It's obviously not a big part of the pop culture collective consciousness but it seems to have a pretty good reputation on a whole.

[sdp]

The more Nick TMNT shows we get the more people will wonder how 2k3 was ever made. It was already called the BTAS of TMNT back when it was airing, but it'll only become more of a "hidden gem".

[FredWolfLeonardo]

I don't think this show will be remembered much outside of the tmnt fandom, if it is remembered at all.

However, within the fans itself, it seems to be a highly praised show and considered the most objectively superior of the turtle toons so there is definetly a lot of love to go around. (except for Fast Forward and Back to the Sewers).

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

It rests in peace, and maybe that's the best. I understand if people want a proper DVD relase (in a Battleshell would be great to match the Fred Wolf Turtlevan release). But that's all.

Can you imagine if the Nickelodeon producers try to milk the cow over and over again by constantly bringing the 4 Kids turtles back for crossovers? The continuity could be messed up and those who grew up with the series would say:

"-It's not the 4 Kids turtles I grew up with..." (we've already had enough of that)

Turtles Forever came out just a few months after the series finale, and is not a big problem for 4 Kids.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

I don't think this show will be remembered much outside of the tmnt fandom, if it is remembered at all.

However, within the fans itself, it seems to be a highly praised show and considered the most objectively superior of the turtle toons so there is definetly a lot of love to go around. (except for Fast Forward and Back to the Sewers).

Even the 2007 animated movie was a mere blip in the radar. It's like people said "oh cool a new turtles movie. they're back!"... and next day forgot all about it. I wonder how much money that movie made but probably inferior numbers to the 1990 movie, SOTO and the Bay Films. Perhaps even made less than TMNT III. Because NO ONE outside of big TMNT fans cared much or even remembers such movie existence.

[CyberCubed]

To be honest I feel like a lot of shows that came out in the early/mid 2000's tend to be overlooked with the exception of the most popular ones, like Avatar, 2003 Teen Titans, etc. It almost feels like a forgotten era for cartoons since everyone brings up 90's cartoons but early/mid 2000's cartoons is when cartoons actually got good and weren't just toy commercials. I really miss that era.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

To be honest I feel like a lot of shows that came out in the early/mid 2000's tend to be overlooked with the exception of the most popular ones, like Avatar, 2003 Teen Titans, etc. It almost feels like a forgotten era for cartoons since everyone brings up 90's cartoons but early/mid 2000's cartoons is when cartoons actually got good and weren't just toy commercials. I really miss that era.

What about cartoons from the current decade?

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

cartoons actually got good and weren't just toy commercials.

It began with animated Batman in 1992.

[Wesley]

History will probably be kind to the 2003 series. I agree it will likely have a cult following. Would be great if the show got a proper dvd release but episodes can still be watched on YouTube anyway.

Shame the show was never as popular as 1987 or 2012, as it’s my favourite TMNT series. I just started rewatching it recently and it holds up well, even though it has flaws.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by Wesley

Shame the show was never as popular as 1987 or 2012, as it’s my favourite TMNT series. I just started rewatching it recently and it holds up well, even though it has flaws.

Do we really know if the Nickelodeon series was more popular than the 4 Kids series?

[MikeandRaph87]

Originally Posted by Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

Do we really know if the Nickelodeon series was more popular than the 4 Kids series?

It did have a bigger push because its Nickeoldeon not Peter Laird making deals with other companies, but seemed to be about the same in popularity as the Nicktoon.

Besides despite my grievances above, the 2003 was a better product in every aspect. Sure it reinterpreted a few characters 4kids did not touch,but that is about the only thing as if Nick did it was in name only which means it should have been left alone.

[ABrown]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

To be honest I feel like a lot of shows that came out in the early/mid 2000's tend to be overlooked with the exception of the most popular ones, like Avatar, 2003 Teen Titans, etc. It almost feels like a forgotten era for cartoons since everyone brings up 90's cartoons but early/mid 2000's cartoons is when cartoons actually got good and weren't just toy commercials. I really miss that era.

Originally Posted by Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

It began with animated Batman in 1992.

Yup, it was the Batman: The Animated Series in 1992 and then Beast Wars in 1996 that were the pioneers for action cartoons being more than just toy commercials.

Originally Posted by Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

Do we really know if the Nickelodeon series was more popular than the 4 Kids series?

This is the exact same thing that I was thinking. If anything, I would say that they were about equally popular. Regardless, neither one was the cultural phenomenon that the original cartoon was.

[dragonside]

it had solid multi-episode story arcs and some of the coolest action and portrayals of the turtles.

I think it will just take a bit of time until nostalgia for the 2k3 turtles will surface. Thats when the toys are going to get some sort of anniversary release i hope.

Although I love the FW turtles, I have to say that the 2K3 turtles are some of the most entertaining and underappreciated versions.

[MikeandRaph87]

Originally Posted by dragonside

it had solid multi-episode story arcs and some of the coolest action and portrayals of the turtles.

I think it will just take a bit of time until nostalgia for the 2k3 turtles will surface. Thats when the toys are going to get some sort of anniversary release i hope.

Although I love the FW turtles, I have to say that the 2K3 turtles are some of the most entertaining and underappreciated versions.

I enjoyed both Leonardo and Donatello in this version more than I did my preferred duo. Mike and Raph were best in the 1987 cartoon, but Leo and Don were best portrayed in the 2003 cartoon.

[Leo656]

I honestly think the 4Kids series would need a ladder to even touch the popularity of the 2012 Nick show. And I say that as someone who enjoyed the former but not the latter.

The toys for 4Kids had a big push out of the gate, but the enthusiasm quickly trailed off and they weren't getting a ton of real estate on shelves after that. Most stores around me barely carried the DVDs, either. I was forever trying to get people I knew who self-identified as "TMNT Fans" to pay attention to it, but between its Saturday morning time slot and the fact it was NOT a direct continuation of the original cartoon, literally none of my friends could be bothered with it.

Fast forward to 2012 and beyond, those same people were all over the Nick show, but I have a theory about that. I have a feeling that 2003 was "too soon" for a revival. Not for most of us in here, but in general. The original audience was going to college and/or joining the workforce, and a TMNT cartoon and toyline couldn't, or shouldn't, have been a major priority for those people. And anyone younger had no nostalgia for the brand, so even if they watched it in passing, it wasn't going to stick with them because it wasn't a cultural phenomenon in 2003, and young kids mostly pay attention to "the BIG thing." I can't remember what "The Big Thing" was for kids in 2003, but it definitely wasn't TMNT.

By 2012, so much was different. Most of the people who couldn't be bothered with the 2003 series have kids now, which is a huge factor, because "subtle" indoctrination of your offspring to like what you liked as a kid is pretty much half of why anyone wants kids. Then multiply it because the people who ignored 2003 were watching the 2012 show with their own kids, and probably buying a few toys on the side for themselves. Add in that it's on Nickelodeon, which every kid watches anyway, and you're guaranteed much higher exposure than ever before.

I think 2012 was just a perfect storm of circumstances for a reboot. Culturally, we weren't "ready" yet in 2003. I didn't watch it much, but I definitely saw way more toys and DVDs for Nick than I ever did for 4Kids. I mean, outside of this place and Facebook, if you tell someone there was a TMNT cartoon in 2003-ish, they have no idea. That pretty much says it all.

The quality of either show is up for debate, but I don't think the popularity is. Nick's show was infinitely more popular.