Eastman refers to Shredder as "Karai's father" in Ult. collection 5

[Rat_King]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Might have been an early idea that Kevin bounced off of Peter that they collectively dismissed... and it's hard to say exactly how much Kevin was involved in "City at War" directly, creatively.

Yeah, it's been mentioned several times that Kevin and Peter didn't agree on much. It's very possible that it was what Kevin wanted but since Peter more heavily oversaw the arc it's what he wanted and what they went with.

[rickwj324]

I have to be honest, my first memory of Karai is the tmnt cgi film and I assumed she was a character made up for that movie and was meant to be shredhead's daughter. I bought mirage comics in the 80s and early 90s but don't remember Karai. I'm not sure she even appeared in the books I owned...its been decades since I read them.

Rick

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by rickwj324

I have to be honest, my first memory of Karai is the tmnt cgi film and I assumed she was a character made up for that movie and was meant to be shredhead's daughter. I bought mirage comics in the 80s and early 90s but don't remember Karai. I'm not sure she even appeared in the books I owned...its been decades since I read them.

She only appeared in the final ... six? or so issues of the original Mirage volume, then didn't have another official appearance in the comics until Laird relaunched the series in 2002.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by rickwj324

I have to be honest, my first memory of Karai is the tmnt cgi film and I assumed she was a character made up for that movie and was meant to be shredhead's daughter. I bought mirage comics in the 80s and early 90s but don't remember Karai. I'm not sure she even appeared in the books I owned...its been decades since I read them.

Rick

Why would you think she was made up for the 4th movie when she had a huge role in the 4kids series airing directly before it and at the same time, regardless of Mirage?

[Toby Barrett]

Maybe he didn't WATCH the 4Kids cartoon.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Toby Barrett

Maybe he didn't WATCH the 4Kids cartoon.

Even if he didn't watch it, I'm sure he was aware of it if he saw a TMNT movie in 2007.

[rickwj324]

Originally Posted by Toby Barrett

Maybe he didn't WATCH the 4Kids cartoon.

I did not watch the 4kids show (and I hope like heck they rerelease them on dvd soon). I collected mirage books early on and watched random episodes of the original toon. I saw all the movies but to my knowledge she was only in the tmnt cgi movie..which was why I assumed she was created for that movie.

@CyberCubed... I was aware of the 4kids toon but didnt see it from the beginning. Foolishly I waited for complete seasons to be released on dvd.... and we all know how that went! They really need to re-release these asap!

Rick

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by rickwj324

I did not watch the 4kids show (and I hope like heck they rerelease them on dvd soon). I collected mirage books early on and watched random episodes of the original toon. I saw all the movies but to my knowledge she was only in the tmnt cgi movie..which was why I assumed she was created for that movie.

@CyberCubed... I was aware of the 4kids toon but didnt see it from the beginning. Foolishly I waited for complete seasons to be released on dvd.... and we all know how that went! They really need to re-release these asap!

Rick

Exactly.... stop assuming everyone knows everything about TMNT all the time. I can imagine Cybercubed laughing at some kids for watching TMNT for the first time ever and calling Leo 'Michealaneglo'. He'd be saying 'TMNT is all over NICK and the toys are everywhere, you OBVIOUSLY heard about it, how can you NOT know the names of the characters and tell them apart?'

[FlogginMcMurryZombiePizza]

I do like the fact that Karai is Spinter's (as Yoshi) daughter that Shredder raised as his own. It's so... evil and twisted. I was happy Nick was going this route.
But I have noticed her origin bounce around. I'm confused in the IDW book, because it seems she is of blood relation to Shredder here but I think my mind wants her to be of Yoshi's blood.

[Matches Malone]

Originally Posted by FlogginMcMurryZombiePizza

I do like the fact that Karai is Spinter's (as Yoshi) daughter that Shredder raised as his own. It's so... evil and twisted. I was happy Nick was going this route.
But I have noticed her origin bounce around. I'm confused in the IDW book, because it seems she is of blood relation to Shredder here but I think my mind wants her to be of Yoshi's blood.

While I agree it seems like a fitting story for Yoshi and Saki, I would've liked that they created a whole new character for it since Karai has an interesting storyline and background of her own. But it also seems like we'll all just have to get used to Karai as someone's daughter at this point.

[CyberCubed]

Especially since the movie is apparently doing the same thing too with Karai being somehow related to Shredder.

Although given Shredder is a white man named Eric Sachs in that movie, they're probably going with the adopted daughter role again.

[Andrew NDB]

It weakens her as a character -- particularly a female character -- to have to chain her to Shredder in such a manner. Let her be her own thing, as was intended.

[Rooish]

I noticed this too, and I must say I thought it was rather annoying. But then, I was more annoyed that Mike was portrayed as such an incompetent character in City at War. Interesting that Kevin wasn't involved much with City at War... I would have thought the gang wars were more his thing. They certainly didn't seem to be Laird's thing--the story was so freaking violent! I'm not used to Laird going down that road.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by Rooish

But then, I was more annoyed that Mike was portrayed as such an incompetent character in City at War.

What? When?

[The Big Bad]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

It weakens her as a character -- particularly a female character -- to have to chain her to Shredder in such a manner.

How so? It seems to me that it gave the character a clear direction, motive, and conflict, in a way things like the tacked-on "she's a mother" revelation never did. Without those, Karai could be High Queen of the Northern Moon, and she still wouldn't be a strong character.

Granted, turning her into the Shredder's daughter was by no means the only way that this could have been done, and I await the version that can make her both the Shredder's superior and a kick-ass character, but the suggestion that that aspect of her original incarnation is the only thing to made her a worthwhile character is, I feel, problematic, and sets a gendered double standard for female characters to meet.

ETA: Which isn't to say that taking the only female character in a position of power and "demoting" her isn't problematic; however, I'd argue that the crux of the problem lies in the fact that there's only one female character in a position of power in the first place. Had that not been the case, then Karai's evolution would have been her own, rather than something representative of the various creators' views (conscious or unconscious) on gender.

[Candy Kappa]

I wouldn't say 4kids Karai had a clear direction, at all in the whole show. She was extremely flaky at best.

[The Big Bad]

I disagree. Karai wanted two things: to obey her father and keep her oath to the turtles (in that order) to whatever degree possible. The Shredder's plan to leave Earth--leaving the Foot Clan under her command and herself free to do as she wanted--advanced both aims. When the turtles put a stop to her plan--even though, to her eyes, it benefits them and has no downside that she cares about--she turns against them, until a greater threat forces them to work together. When the Shredder returns, she attempts to restore him to power, only to turn on him when he realizes he aims to destroy everything. The only thing that really doesn't fit is her presence at the wedding, and she's by no means the only guilty party in that regard.

At least, that's the way I see her. I'll admit that execution of the story allows for various valid interpretations. Are her two wishes to some degree contradictory? Sure, which makes her no different from anyone needing to make a decision in their life ever. What's more, it does a lot to give her character something she very much needed in order to be relevant after "City at War": conflict. Mirage Karai is wholly disposable character after her original story, and arguably, an obstacle to be hand-waved away so that stories can actually take place (see: the Image run, Tristan Huw Jones' stories). Even her role in Volume 4 is a relatively minor one, with her actual effect on any given plot minimal. Why? Because she spends large swaths of the volume with no ambition other than keeping the Foot Clan running as normally as possible.

Turning Karai into Shredder's daughter, on the other hand, places her front and center in the story, as the turtles' opposite number, and arguably the show's central antagonist. TMNT--particularly in its cartoon incarnations--is a story about family, which means that in order for the villains to carry thematic weight, they have to be able to also say something about that theme. The original Shredder, created as he was on a whim, could not do that, which one of the reasons why the story doesn't need him, and his quick disposal is why Pimiko doesn't really work (besides all the other reasons she doesn't work). Mirage Karai could have had something to say, if her daughter were treated as anything more than a footnote. Both cartoon Karais, on the other hand, are vital to their respective series.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

I can agree with that. Besides, if Kevin says that Karai is shredder's daughter, who am I to argue?

[Candy Kappa]

Originally Posted by Panda_Kahn_fan

I can agree with that. Besides, if Kevin says that Karai is shredder's daughter, who am I to argue?

Yes, let's throw all logic out the window and say a 35-ish man can have a, if not adult, then a young adult granddaughter.

[shuriken]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I'm surprised none of them mentioned how quickly Casey fell in love with April so soon after Gabrielle died. I mean he just married Gabrielle and thought he was going to start a family with her. She dies at childbirth, he spreads her ash's, and only a few weeks/month later he meets April and they kiss on their first day seeing each other again.

It's something I never realized as a kid that struck me re-reading this now

He was emotional and arguably always had those feeling about April. She is the one that wanted him to grow up. To me Gabrielle (as messed up as this is gonna sound) was only there to help Casey grow up. Without his experience with Gabrielle he would never have been able to be ina real relationship with April.
As fro Eastman thinking Karai was Saki's daughter, meh. It happens. I also find it kind of odd/ funny that the only other incarnations that showed Karai as Shred's equal or Superior were The videogames and the 2007 movie, which was terrible.