03-09-2020, 04:06 PM | #21 | ||
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I mean when looking at it from an objective way it's pretty delusional how you're seeing this you have to admit. You seem to have some personal beef with the guy based on the fact people are nostalgic towards the series. I'm sure the same people will argue the IDW writers are hacks in 30 years time as well. Just because you don't like the tone of the series doesn't make it bad. The 80's series was completely unfaithful to its source material in terms of tone and story but completely faithful in spirit of its source material. It's just not for you I get it but don't trash one guy who was a large part of that series creation. You could easily argue Jack Mendelsohn and Francis Moss took the series less seriously than Wise. I mean neatoman that bridge looks pretty unstable man. |
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03-09-2020, 05:06 PM | #22 | |
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Again: Lying is wrong and should be called out when it's evident, sympathetic reasons are not an excuse. There are also reasons something can be bad beyond personal taste and the number of people who are nostalgic for it is not a counter-argument. These are pretty simple points, it's a bad sign when you can't argue against them and have to resort to misrepresentation and empty refutations.
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Hahahaha! Last edited by neatoman; 03-09-2020 at 05:18 PM. |
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03-09-2020, 05:15 PM | #23 | |
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I'm still shocked that he bothered to use "objective" in a sentence and got lucky that it's contextually accurate. If I had to guess beforehand I'd think he had no experience with the word, given the constant strawman rebuttals and whatnot in defense of something that simply ain't that great without the ol' Nostalgia Goggles. But again... that's the gimmick.
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03-09-2020, 07:26 PM | #24 | ||||||||
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That's pretty much while you fail to understand the 80's series. You cannot appreciate something outside of your own contemporary viewing, Dude, you sill have your precious IDW comic and one day people will call the IDW writers bad writers as well except unlike you I can appreciate to some extent what they're doing without taking potshots EVERY SINGLE thread. The man is gone and he won't be alive to defend himself, not that it matters for close minded individuals such as yourself. |
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03-09-2020, 10:17 PM | #25 |
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What?
Brother, I've been the one person here who's been more than patient with you whenever we've spoken, but that's over, since now you're gonna start taking swings at me of all people. You're a loon with an ax to grind and nothing more, as far as I'm concerned. I don't think you mean anyone any specific harm but you're definitely "off." I used to feel really bad when people would joke/imply that you were "detained" in some fashion, given your hyper-obsessive posting style and oddly specific posting schedule, because such insinuations are kind of mean, but now I'm starting to wonder. Have fun with those windmills, Don Quixote.
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03-10-2020, 01:29 PM | #26 | |
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03-19-2020, 06:59 AM | #27 |
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Both MASK and Duck Tales had a plot about metal eating mites......
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03-19-2020, 07:12 AM | #28 |
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"And why do we call these 'masks'? This is a helmet... not a mask..."
"M.A.S.K.! Do they know... 'Command' doesn't start with a K?"
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03-19-2020, 10:45 AM | #29 | |
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But hey, don't let fans like me get in the way of revisionist history from cringe culture advocates.
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TMNT Fan Script Discussion Thread "It Should Have Ended Here"...add your ideal ending to the Series Fauxnale wiki Add Your Story to the TMNT Fanfiction Wiki Spider-Man: The Rescue Spider-Man: The Galloping Cat Spider-Man: Scarlet Mirror Doctor Who: Child of the Daleks Last edited by ZariusTwo; 03-19-2020 at 10:58 AM. |
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03-19-2020, 02:46 PM | #30 |
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There's no natural link between fond memories and the writer's investment. A child does not have very high standards and can very easily remember things as better than they were when they're adults, or the memories could be straight up warped to be more positive than the actual experience, the latter even happens later in life. When it comes to writer investment, it is true that more investment will result in a less flawed product, it also true that creating something that is good enough for first impressions or someone who isn't expected to think too hard about it, isn't really that difficult. And as established, characters/concepts found in merchendise driven cartoons are often the creations of someone other than the writers.
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03-19-2020, 04:51 PM | #31 |
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Fair points on either side.
To me, I find that it's really mostly our young, impressionable minds that create those powerful memories. And whether or not they "hold up" depends a lot on how frequently we revisit those things, although it varies by individual. Objectively, it's very rare that I revisit an old cartoon, TV show, movie or comic book that I loved as a pre-10 year old, and find that it's still JUST as good as it was then. More often, I find that it's "alright" but I can see how my young, flexible imagination filled in a lot of holes and made things seem grander and more epic than they truly were. For example, I just this morning finally found the name of a song I remembered listening to daily as a kid, but haven't heard in about 20 years, so I decided to look it up, and it sounds nothing at all like I remembered; not necessarily Better or Worse, but completely different. There's also the matter of how much we, as individuals, are willing to overlook or forgive when it comes to something we care about. I'm a huge He-Man fan, for example, and I do still enjoy most of the old episodes without irony, but at the same time, I'm under no illusion whatsoever that the scriptwriters actually sat down and agonized over these things, trying to tell the best possible story. That simply isn't true, they were churned out to meet a deadline and in many cases it shows. Is it forgivable given the circumstances of cranking out episodes for daily syndication? Sure, I think that it's fine to grade on a curve in some situations such as era, contemporary limitations of the medium, etc. etc., but even most of the people who wrote for these older cartoon shows openly admit that what they were doing was mostly fluff. And as neatoman said, 99% of the audience for these shows were NOT going to be watching them with a scrutinizing eye, and the writers and producers know that just as well now as they did back then, which is evident in the quality (or, as people our age might say, the lack thereof) of modern kids' shows. I maintain that the writing for kids' entertainment nowadays is actually a lot worse, and that they really do think that everyone watching these shows and movies is a moron, and that they actually did have more respect for the audience Back In My Day, but I'm sure a lot of people would dispute that as well and insist that it's gotten better. Point being, kids of ANY era don't like things because they are necessarily Good, they like them because they're exposed to them and thus naturally develop a fondness for them because they become an uplifting part of one's daily routine. That's perfectly normal and natural. But it does not mean, however, that the creators were doing anything more than cashing a paycheck as easily and with as little effort as possible. Because that WAS the standard, and probably still is; some things will come out better than others, some things will hold up and some won't, but it ultimately has very little to do with the output of effort on the part of the creative team. If even the people who made The Simpsons during their golden years can admit that they were mostly half-assing it and cutting corners whenever possible, then I think it only stands to reason that the people behind a show like TMNT weren't giving 100% effort, either. And that doesn't mean it was bad, that people shouldn't have liked it or that their mind was playing tricks on them or whatever, but there IS a strong nostalgic factor, and we as kids have always done most of the "heavy lifting" in elevating these shows from Harmless Filler to Epic Sagas in our imagination. Happens in absolutely everything. Ever try to go back and watch an old horror movie that had you in tears as a 6-year old? You usually just laugh, now. You see things with a completely different set of eyes as an adult, and that's simply the way it is.
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03-20-2020, 06:38 AM | #32 | |
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Terminator 2 lifts lines from the original (I'll be back, Come with me if you want to live, etc) and creates similar (though clearly very different) scenes in an effort to make the audience think "oh, I remember that!". Being able to recognise what is going on is part of the craft, it still intentionally deviates a lof from the earlier creation in order to keep the audience invested. Similar but clearly different, that is the point here. It's also worth pointing out that this particular example is about as extreme as it gets when it comes to the creators you picked, and I pretty much already explained that it is intentional because it's a sequel. Just to compare, here are two scenes. And yes, the "CWMIYWTL" moment happens later but that scene itself is much more different, harldy worth pointing out why it's different. Then some of the others like Scorsese, you point to style and themes, which is not the same as re-using writing at all. A script is something you can physically copy, a style being reused is more abstract. And a theme like "crime bad" can take countless forms, you don't need to directly copy to have the same theme. What David Wise did on the other hand was not an intentional callback, it's the same script re-used with minor tweaks. The scene below (thanks oldmanwinters for providing the videos earlier in this thread) about characters going inside the mechanical body of another, while it does have some differences in the surrounding context, is literally the same scene. The lines are basically the same and the scenarios only differ because of animator interpretation. The video below is an even worse case, it's basically the entire episode recycled. A very important distinction isn't that it's simply familiar, it's the same. Another key difference here is also the previously mentioned sequel factor. It can be fairly easy to assume that the audience for Terminator 2 were fans of Terminator 1, they're expected to recognise what's going on. Transformers and Ninja Turtles have nothing in common, you're not expected to be familiar with one before you watch the other, so they're not callbacks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUfQRFv2t2U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQOt0BR8pP8 And examples of him doing this were quite rampant. The link to the TFWIKI article (thank you Jester), provides a nice little list. And keep in mind, as that one's on a Transformers wiki, it only lists examples relevant to the Transformers franchise. There might actually be plenty of examples that have nothing to do with Transformers. Here are the examples listed, feel free to think of it as a watch list, just to make sure it's correct:
And again, these examples are only relevant to Transformers. There might be others out there. I'm sorry if I'm making long posts in this thread but I keep seeing bad arguments here. Straw Men, Band Wagon fallacies, What-About-isms... Please, learn how to argue.
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Hahahaha! Last edited by neatoman; 03-20-2020 at 06:47 AM. |
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03-20-2020, 02:18 PM | #33 | |
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Since by your own admission you're not going to carefully read my long explaination for why your argument was poor, here's a shorter one: Your argument was bad because you tried to equate stylistic choices to a literal re-use of old material. If you want more detail, I already explained the difference. As for the other bad arguments in this thread, ZariusTwo made an erroneous connection between fan engagement and writer interest, which is bad because because it assumes there's a tie between how the author and audience feel about the product. And pferreira... There's a lot of things wrong with how pferreira argues but the basic problems here are that he tries to argue that David Wise was important, that other writers derailed the show more than him and criticises his critics, none of which has to do with wheter or not he blatantly recycled material. Come to think of it, despite your argument being bad, it's actually better than anything ZariusTwo and pferreira tried here. Because it does tackle the subject of this thread, it just ignores an important distinction. |
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03-20-2020, 06:13 PM | #34 |
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HAH! "You presented too much factual evidence in support of your position. I'm purposely going to completely ignore it so that I can remain willfully ignorant of the topic at hand. Anything besides be exposed to information that might possibly change my mind!"
Never, ever gets old. Snicker.
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03-20-2020, 06:38 PM | #35 | |
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It's not even that hard to understand, one relied on recognition to get the point across, the other assumed it would fly over your head. |
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03-20-2020, 07:41 PM | #36 |
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For what it's worth I think your arguments are generally fair and well-presented. I personally haven't seen anything said that wasn't true, just maybe things that people either don't want to hear or choose to take too personally.
People treat this show like it's their child and David Wise like he was their grandfather. Statements of fact are not insults to be taken personally, I don't get what the problem is. It's not like the shows weren't successful or popular or that people didn't or can't like them. But the guy recycled scripts. It's not like he was the only one, but it's a thing that happened. Oh well.
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03-22-2020, 09:18 AM | #37 |
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He did wrote some solid Batman TAS episodes
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03-22-2020, 05:00 PM | #38 |
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Hey we finally fixed the typo on this thread title!
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03-22-2020, 08:16 PM | #39 |
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Ha! My pedantic ass is overjoyed.
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03-24-2020, 04:01 PM | #40 | ||||||
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According to YOUR opinion. Quote:
The problem is we have to rely on people who worked there at the time, not your own subjective opinion. A couple of times I've quoted people you've criticised because you didn't think I had an argument. It's obvious you have your own agenda but you can't say I'm talking out of my butt. |
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