How would you have fleshed out Razhar and Fishface?

[Groverman62]

If could give these characters more to them, how would you?

[neatoman]

Well... First of Bradford and Xever were perfectly fine characters before they mutated. The fact that they provided two different connections to the criminal underbelly of the city, Xever the low-life thugs and Bradford the top brass, to help Shredder take control is interesting in theory. The fact that there's also a clear class divide between the two makes for decent tension as well.

The problem is that this show's mutation fetish robbed us of potentially interesting characters. The instant these two became Dogpound and Fishface, their gimmicks stopped being "Criminals based on 70's action stars" and just became more mutant henchmen. The two barely interact with any "normal" characters from that point on, the class divide is rendered meaningless, pretty much only ever get used for action scenes and lose most of what made them interesting to see fight in the first place. Turning Dogpound into zombie version of Rahzar did not improve the situation. I know Shredder mention that they and Rocksteady still help keep his sub-gangs in check but we never see that nor is it explained how they can still do so when they're monsters who barely go out in daylight.

Now I understand that the mutant toys is probably the main reason they even existed in the first place but making them potentially good characters before they mutated is obviously a mistake. Ironically, it might have been a good move to make them really genericly boring characters before the mutation, that way they might as well remained the same and not come across as wasted potential. Though just to actually improve things, maybe they could just have kept Bradford and Xever around as normal humans, and if it was really necessary to promote the stupid toys... I mean you could just make them seperate characters, like some random animals Baxter mutates for the Shredder.

In summation: Mutating them was a bad idea and the mutants (if they had to be there) could have been different characters.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

I think for one, they needed to have more breathing room in the series in order to be more fleshed out characters.

I would've achieved this by taking out Bebop and Rocksteady entirely, two mutant henchmen who took up alot of screentime that could've been devoted to Razhar and Fishface instead.

[newfan]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

I think for one, they needed to have more breathing room in the series in order to be more fleshed out characters.

I would've achieved this by taking out Bebop and Rocksteady entirely, two mutant henchmen who took up alot of screentime that could've been devoted to Razhar and Fishface instead.

I was wondering the same thing. I preferred Fishface to those two, the comic relief for him was more subtle and I preferred the personality. I did also feel that Xever was a good character who could have been used more, seemed more threatening prior to being fishface.

[sdp]

I would've spent more time with their human forms, at least one more episode before mutating Dogpound and Fishface since their human forms were pretty cool. These two were the Rockstedy and Beebop of this show basically and should've been treated better, especially Fishface since Dogpound got a second life when he got mutated. Speaking of which I wouldn't have mutated Dogpound into Rahzar, he had a cool design already, make someone else into Rahzar, not to mention Rahzar without Tokka always felt wrong even if Gamera Tokka was sort of cool.

Beebop and Rocksteady in the show were fairly cool as well but they should've split from Shredder and be their own guys in this show since Shredder already had too many goons at his command with Tigerclaw and Baxter. He just had too many mutants with similar roles which also led to villain decay.

[Luckyday]

I think in theory it is possible to keep these two interesting as mutants by just retaining their original conflict and giving them personal motivations.

Hell, you would think that these two would be at each other throat even more and blame each other for becoming mutants but no because they just make fun of each other and...that's it.

I would have Fishface start going off his own to find a cure for himself and make a offer to the Turtles to become a informant for them if they can make him human again with the retro mutagen.

Dogpound eventually finds out because he can smell their scent on him and was close to exposing him but Fishface manages convince him to switch sides. Dogpound however realize that he will have nothing to go back to since the Shredder was the one that gave him all that fame and prestige and without him, he will be basically like Xever.

This result in them fighting to end their rivalry once and for all and just when Fishface was about to die, the turtles comes in knock Dogpound into the mutation and he becomes Razhar. Razhar seems stronger but he is also now mentally unstable. He lost all humanity and now acts like a total feral animal. Making him dangerous towards everybody, friend or foe.

Xever being saved and cure becomes an actual ally instead of just being someone who only in it for himself and helps them when comes to dealing with the criminal underworld like how Draxum from Rise helps the Turtles with mystic magic stuff.

[The Great Saiyaman]

I would do what I'm about to do in my "the full 80%" fan comic.

- Bradford
Showcase his background as a student of Tatsu's and a training partner of Karai's.
In "The Gauntlet" Shredder goes "You were such a promising student, I spent YEARS molding you in my image and yet you shame me with your incompetence!" I already have a scene in which Karai talks about having Bradford over in Shredder's mansion and how she got to know him very well over the years.
In "The Forgotten Swordsman" Tatsu is confronting Bradford and the latter is very tempted to switch sides and abandon Tiger Claw's version of the Foot Clan. I'm already working on a scene in which Leonardo trains at Tatsu's old Dojo by Tatsu's right hand man Toshiro and the latter tells him more about Bradford.

- Xever
First of all, the "New Animated adventures" comic book series do a good job of fleshing out the character more. Such as the story line where he confronts his old gang mate who ratted him out and got him into jail.
I'd go from there and show more of Xever's past as a career criminal and a Gang member.
In my story, I already had Xever clones appear but the real Xever will make an appearance too as he will form an alliance with the Turtles to get "Those cheap copies out of town!"

[Cake-Monster85]

I don't need much fleshing out of the side characters. I do think Rahzar should have acted more like he did in the movie tho.

[ssjup81]

Xever and Bradford were interesting characters. It did suck that they fell into the Bebop and Rocksteady route like most all villains at some point since they're the bad guys. They start off as threats, but get nerfed over time.

Anyway, for Xever, I would have had him more vigilant over becoming human again. This guy pretty much said he missed, what I say, "human relations". He had no real allegiance to Shredder...kind of. He only kept him out of prison. I just feel that Xever would've been better off as a gray area character whose allegiance is determined based on what he needs or what benefits him. Show Xever wanting to get back to his old life or focusing on it at times would have been nice. Maybe have that he did have a girlfriend or someone important to him that he wouldn't mind seeing again.

As for Bradford, it was already mentioned that he was trained by Saki, hence his fighting style, and was a student of his for many years. Him being completely loyal to Shredder makes a lot of sense. I suppose just showing what his past was like before he became famous would be nice and then have him wanting to regain that, even though he seemed to like his body as Rahzaa because it made him more agile. That aside, him longing to be human again would've been nice because he misses his life where he trained his own set of students while also trying to make Shredder proud of him. Could have that he was a father figure to him or a mentor...more so than he ever really was to Karai. That would've been interesting to see.

The main thing that sucks with both, though, is that the notion of becoming human again was just dropped. As mentioned, to an extent, I could see this kind of with Bradford, but not Xever.

[Zachatello00]

Echoing a bit of what's already been expressed, but adding my own thoughts as well - I don't understand why they didn't just start off with Bebop and Rocksteady from the beginning.

Tokka and Rahzar. Dogpound and Fishface. They're all a poor man's version of Rocksteady and Bebop anyway. I don't know, maybe you disagree, but this is always my first thought when I see a new mutant duo, or whatever. Even the foot lieutenant and the foot brute (as much as I enjoyed the pseudo Pinky and the Brain reunion, there).

Having said that, the question was asked "How would you have fleshed out" these characters. I actually liked the direction they took with Bradford, but I got the feeling that they never really knew what they wanted to do with him. I will agree with sdp who said that Rahzar without Tokka felt odd. I felt that way, too. I kept waiting for Fishface to somehow be double mutated into Tokka.

That might have been a direction I'd gone in. After all, it would be easy for him to find a Turtle or two to be near when he got splashed with a second dose of ooze.

My actual answer lies in there somewhere. I don't know. Fishface and Dogpound were weak as a duo because of their personal feelings toward each other. They were strong characters, but a weak duo, I think. Whereas Bebop and Rocksteady seem to have each others back. But I posted in another thread earlier that I'm not a big fan of "too many" mutants. Shredder having 5 (Rahzar, Fishface, Tiger Claw, Bebop and Rocksteady) on his "A Squad" is a lot...