TMNT Universe #11 Preview and Discussion

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by myconius

well even though they brought them back, they did kill Hamato Yoshi and his sons.

how many supporting characters have been killed so far? Savate Ninja (issue#6), Victor, Professor Miller, Darius Dunn, Stockman's guards (Tmnt:U#1), Bishop's Dad . . .

those are the only ones that jump out at me off the top of my head.

OH! and that unfortunate rat that got goggled up in issue #36!
poor Squeaky!

I guess when I tally up the bodycount, my criteria is whether or not they were a character in their own right or just "window dressing / plot device."

That's why I don't count the Savate, or any number of Foot ninja and soldiers, guards, etc. Bishop's dad wasn't a character, he was a relationship to Bishop himself.

The Hamato Clan is kinda exempt from my tally because of the whole reincarnation angle. It's damned ballsy, but also just... well, you could count it or not.

Professor Miller feels like he had more potential. That one irritated me a little; loved seeing Jennika stab him through the car seat, but I think Miller was a unique character and a bit of a loss. But it certainly gave us some needed context for Karai's dedication to cleansing the Foot Clan of outsiders!

[MikeandRaph87]

Originally Posted by myconius

well even though they brought them back, they did kill Hamato Yoshi and his sons.

how many supporting characters have been killed so far? Savate Ninja (issue#6), Victor, Professor Miller, Darius Dunn, Stockman's guards (Tmnt:U#1), Bishop's Dad . . .

those are the only ones that jump out at me off the top of my head.

OH! and that unfortunate rat that got goggled up in issue #36!
poor Squeaky!

What I like about it is the deaths are all impactful on the overall story going forward. Also, I appreciate that its not key players. That is one of the major reasons I could not get into Mirage with Shredder and Rat King and later Splinter dead and that plague killed my enthusiasm for the Nicktoon. IDW gets it right. Dire consequences yet major players are not killed off. Not to mention Shredder has the ability to return.

[myconius]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

I guess when I tally up the bodycount, my criteria is whether or not they were a character in their own right or just "window dressing / plot device."

That's why I don't count the Savate, or any number of Foot ninja and soldiers, guards, etc. Bishop's dad wasn't a character, he was a relationship to Bishop himself.

The Hamato Clan is kinda exempt from my tally because of the whole reincarnation angle. It's damned ballsy, but also just... well, you could count it or not.

Professor Miller feels like he had more potential. That one irritated me a little; loved seeing Jennika stab him through the car seat, but I think Miller was a unique character and a bit of a loss. But it certainly gave us some needed context for Karai's dedication to cleansing the Foot Clan of outsiders!

no matter the significance of a character i do enjoy when a comic is not afraid to show a few heads roll.

i feel Miller did have potential that was wasted, but at the same time it did validate Karai's resolve and give the story much needed fangs.
as did the Death of Darius Dunn.

even though i already knew they came back, seeing the death of the Hamato Clan still was a real punch to the gut.

OH MY GOD! we failed to mention the Death of Tang Shen!!
i'm seriously embarrassed that i overlooked her!!

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

What I like about it is the deaths are all impactful on the overall story going forward. Also, I appreciate that its not key players. That is one of the major reasons I could not get into Mirage with Shredder and Rat King and later Splinter dead and that plague killed my enthusiasm for the Nicktoon. IDW gets it right. Dire consequences yet major players are not killed off. Not to mention Shredder has the ability to return.

i agree about enjoying seeing a few 'Red-Shirts' get slaughtered for the sake of a story.

that is a problem with killing off main characters. it'll always be someone's favorite character and risk losing a fan.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

What I like about it is the deaths are all impactful on the overall story going forward. Also, I appreciate that its not key players. That is one of the major reasons I could not get into Mirage with Shredder and Rat King and later Splinter dead and that plague killed my enthusiasm for the Nicktoon. IDW gets it right. Dire consequences yet major players are not killed off. Not to mention Shredder has the ability to return.

Death is a lasting consequence. And lasting consequences are all too absent from most mainstream comics these days.

Killing redshirts is pointless; nobody cared when Mr. Leslie or Mr. Kyle were killed on an away mission because we all knew Kirk, Spock, and Bones would be just fine.

But when Spock died in Wrath of Khan or Jazdia Dax died in Deep Space Nine, THAT has consequence and lasting impact.

And I'd much rather see Hun killed than have his character just languish and suffer diminishing returns.

[Utrommaniac]

Originally Posted by myconius

well even though they brought them back, they did kill Hamato Yoshi and his sons.

how many supporting characters have been killed so far? Savate Ninja (issue#6), Victor, Professor Miller, Darius Dunn, Stockman's guards (Tmnt:U#1), Bishop's Dad . . .

Emperor Quanin, I think, is a huge supporting character death. Unlike Bishop's father, he wasn't just a connection to Krang, but I'd even say he's very much in the center rings of everything, though outside of whatever the Pantheon is doing. They're dead center. His actions in turn caused Krang's motivations, and without his death or destruction of his homeworld, the turtles might be dealing with a very, very different Krang. I think they'd still exist with or without Utrominon's destruction, but the means for protecting the Utrom civilization would be changed.

So he's not just a support character thematically, he's literally a leg of support for the plot. His actions have caused waves into the present point that would probably have caused a lot of things to just not happen, or at least happen alternatively.

[MikeandRaph87]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Death is a lasting consequence. And lasting consequences are all too absent from most mainstream comics these days.

Killing redshirts is pointless; nobody cared when Mr. Leslie or Mr. Kyle were killed on an away mission because we all knew Kirk, Spock, and Bones would be just fine.

But when Spock died in Wrath of Khan or Jazdia Dax died in Deep Space Nine, THAT has consequence and lasting impact.

And I'd much rather see Hun killed than have his character just languish and suffer diminishing returns.

Hun is expendable in my eyes. Just a punk who got lucky. He is more supporting and not a major player anyway. Yes, I know I am down playing Hun,but he is not Shredder/Krang/Rat King tier. Even Karai and Baxter. Any other villain sure. Just spar Slash and Hob! They are becomng key players. I would be just fine with Hun dying if the right emotional situation can be plotted. He can be played up in a way similar to Yondu's action.

[myconius]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Death is a lasting consequence. And lasting consequences are all too absent from most mainstream comics these days.

Killing redshirts is pointless; nobody cared when Mr. Leslie or Mr. Kyle were killed on an away mission because we all knew Kirk, Spock, and Bones would be just fine.

But when Spock died in Wrath of Khan or Jazdia Dax died in Deep Space Nine, THAT has consequence and lasting impact.

And I'd much rather see Hun killed than have his character just languish and suffer diminishing returns.

but they brought Spock back.

you really can't permanently kill off a Kirk or Spock without potentially killing off the franchise.

now Hun is a character i've actually been wanting to see get off'ed for a while now.

Originally Posted by Utrommaniac

Emperor Quanin, I think, is a huge supporting character death. Unlike Bishop's father, he wasn't just a connection to Krang, but I'd even say he's very much in the center rings of everything, though outside of whatever the Pantheon is doing. They're dead center. His actions in turn caused Krang's motivations, and without his death or destruction of his homeworld, the turtles might be dealing with a very, very different Krang. I think they'd still exist with or without Utrominon's destruction, but the means for protecting the Utrom civilization would be changed.

So he's not just a support character thematically, he's literally a leg of support for the plot. His actions have caused waves into the present point that would probably have caused a lot of things to just not happen, or at least happen alternatively.

yeah i can definitely see Quanin's death as being very significant.

i think the reason why i overlooked it myself is because it was told in flashback, though it still is very relevant.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

Hun is expendable in my eyes. Just a punk who got lucky. He is more supporting and not a major player anyway. Yes, I know I am down playing Hun,but he is not Shredder/Krang/Rat King tier. Even Karai and Baxter. Any other villain sure. Just spar Slash and Hob! They are becomng key players. I would be just fine with Hun dying if the right emotional situation can be plotted. He can be played up in a way similar to Yondu's action.

I wouldn't want to see Hun redeemed; too far gone, I think.

But yeah, spare Hob and probably Slash, too. (I could mourn Slash, though... it'd gut me, but it could be done well.)

But maybe IDW has to look at it from a long game perspective... if Shredder (who we all know is going to be resurrected somehow by Kitsune), Krang, Kitsune, and Bishop were to all be straight-up killed, does IDW have faith in their own storytelling and their casual audience to read stories featuring new, lesser-known or original villains?

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by myconius

but they brought Spock back.

you really can't permanently kill off a Kirk or Spock without potentially killing off the franchise.

I disagree. We don't WANT them to permanently kill off those characters, but the loss of a single main character will not kill off the franchise if the franchise is strong enough.

Hell, Game of Thrones kept going after the Red Wedding. And just look at the Walking Dead. Star Trek is an ensemble story.

Although--and here I agree with you--TMNT would NOT survive killing off one of the four Turtles. That is verboten. But TMNT isn't an ensemble story; it's the story of four brothers.

[MikeandRaph87]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

I wouldn't want to see Hun redeemed; too far gone, I think.

But yeah, spare Hob and probably Slash, too. (I could mourn Slash, though... it'd gut me, but it could be done well.)

But maybe IDW has to look at it from a long game perspective... if Shredder (who we all know is going to be resurrected somehow by Kitsune), Krang, Kitsune, and Bishop were to all be straight-up killed, does IDW have faith in their own storytelling and their casual audience to read stories featuring new, lesser-known or original villains?

This is the first time post-Shredder that I have been very invested and interested. 2003 was for a period,but after Ninja Tribunal and the fact there was a Shredder crutch helped. Fastforward and Back To The Sewers...not so much. I believe IDW could do that while all others failed in a post-Shredder era in the long-term. After Shredder is defeated the days are usually numbered or Mirage bankrolls lost profits while other iterations fund it.

Right now we have Agent Bishop vs Lady Null vs Baxter Stockman(who is temporarily Team Turtles). The Pantheon(Rat King #2 figure of the group) are active. Then Malinga likely to be a villain in her own right only loosely tied to Krang. We also had Darius Dunn and the Street Phantoms serve an interesting plot. There are still others who will likely rear their heads like Karai or Bebop and Rocksteady independent of The Shredder. TMNT has a wealth of villains and IDW is using them effectively. It is proving to me that Shredder and to an extent Krang are not necessary every other story arc. Does IDW have faith in carrying on without them? Heck yes? Take them off the table permanently? I think they see that characters can be taken off the table and placed on the shelf without permanently removing the character. I like that approach. I mean in my own fan-fiction i killed off Titanus and Dregg. There some that are expendable and then others which might serve a better purpose on the shelf. It can serve for diverse storytelling later like Trial of Krang. Heck, Shredder and Krang are not necessary with the EXCITING stories in the pipeline but they can still be up for later.

Btw, I did not include Quanin or Tang Shen because they died in flashback(backstory purpose),before the events of the first issue. I was including those who died from the point of the first issue and beyond.

[ChosenOne]

Shredder does have his time and place, but he's not the be-all, end-all of TMNT villains. There's a life after Saki. And IDW demonstrates that beautifully. If anything, any storyline post-Shredder has the chance to be even better than what came before because the rest of the rogues' gallery is by definition even more outlandish than an armored ninja warlord.

As far as we know, Maligna might be used the same as Rat King was before #50: make her debut in Trial of Krang, and then lay low until she comes back in a big way after #100 and the only thing goes cosmic with the Triceratons, etc.

And there's still a bunch of villains left untapped such as Lord Dregg, Armaggon... Heck, even Chien Khan would be brilliantly done at the hands of IDW!

[CyberCubed]

Shredder will probably be revived by the Pantheon around issue 100 or a little before, so you should enjoy the Shredder-less series now.

[Utrommaniac]

My theory that if Krang is executed/killed, Ch'rell will take up his mantle in the name of vengeance...but then it's a question of what has to be done to put a stop to him, and the following chain of avengers. Which is probably one more reason why Krang wouldn't be killed off, at least from a writing perspective. Banishment or disappearing amid chaos would be an easier solution than yet another revenge plotline. More of a "Where in the World is General Krang?"

[myconius]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

I disagree. We don't WANT them to permanently kill off those characters, but the loss of a single main character will not kill off the franchise if the franchise is strong enough.

Hell, Game of Thrones kept going after the Red Wedding. And just look at the Walking Dead. Star Trek is an ensemble story.

Although--and here I agree with you--TMNT would NOT survive killing off one of the four Turtles. That is verboten. But TMNT isn't an ensemble story; it's the story of four brothers.

well no, we don't want them to kill off the characters. but when they kill off a character integral to drawing in fans it does put a damper on a series.

i've never watched Game of Thrones, but i can say from The Walking Dead that they killed off any characters i enjoyed watching and now i no longer bother watching the show.
(well that and the fact that the show drags and goes nowhere)

but at least we agree that killing off one of the 4 Turtles would be a HUGE mistake.
that's be like ordering a hamburger and telling them to hold the burger.

[Utrommaniac]

Isn't that what people were freaking out over when Donatello almost died? I wasn't reading when it happened, but I was slightly aware of it.

[myconius]

many people were freaking out about Donatello's "death" in issue#44.

i really didn't think he was actually dead after reading the issue, though i had plenty of people debating me otherwise.

i mean if the issue ended with him getting his head lopped off or something, then i'd probably believed him dead.
but a smashed open shell with his guts laying all over they place?
....it's not but a flesh wound!

[Utrommaniac]

I think that thought was especially on the minds of people who didn't actually read the series. At some point during the Leatherhead arch, I saw someone in a comment section of a preview asking why Donatello was still alive.

[myconius]

Originally Posted by Utrommaniac

I think that thought was especially on the minds of people who didn't actually read the series. At some point during the Leatherhead arch, I saw someone in a comment section of a preview asking why Donatello was still alive.

yeah, the people trying to debate me that Donatello was really dead never even read a single issue. they "read it in an article".
pretty cool, eh?

HA! so they probably didn't even realize he was put into Metalhead?

[Utrommaniac]

Yep! Makes me want to plaster this in their faces


(And yet I also want it as a full-sized poster...so much. I love it.)

Y'all, just...read the series. I'm actually surprised people ("non readers") didn't lose their minds when Shredder and Splinter went through the Seppuku rites.

[myconius]

Originally Posted by Utrommaniac

Yep! Makes me want to plaster this in their faces
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....LL._SY300_.jpg

(And yet I also want it as a full-sized poster...so much. I love it.)

Y'all, just...read the series. I'm actually surprised people ("non readers") didn't lose their minds when Shredder and Splinter went through the Seppuku rites.

i'll never understand why some people want to 'follow' a story if they don't care enough to even bother reading it?

myself, if something interests me i'll just read it.
but then again there's many things people do these days i'll never understand.

(that poster is hysterical btw)