Kevin Eastman started his own Youtube Channel

[Rooish]

As a Female Fan, I think Karai as Shredder's boss/elder worked in the City at War context, when Shredder was dead. She was a super cool character and a welcome contrast to April, who was floundering around hard at that point.

Her as Shredder's daughter creates another interesting character. Not the same character at all, but an interesting one nonetheless as she has to be kind of tortured, torn between her father and her better judgement.

Not a fan, however, of her being a Turtle's sister, a Turtle's love interest, or a snake mutant. Her and Shinigami's bromance makes up for this all however.

[Konchadunga]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Conceptually not a bad idea. Though the actual character of Ch'rell was fairly nonsensical. He what, wants to rule the universe? Do evil things just for evil's sake? Dumb.

I share that sentiment, but for me the 4Kids show (not just limiting it to Ch'rel) had another big problem; it spun the Shredder as a concept into flat-out Mary-Sue territory. Worse even than Venus De Milo, I'd argue, because at least the damage she caused was fixed, but we're still living with what 4Kids Shredder inflicted. The problem wasn't just Alien Shredder; it was Karai Shredder, Demon Shredder, Cyber Shredder (Barf!) and they'd have probably kept adding more if the show kept going. Ch'rel was ultimately a Deus Ex machinca to make it so Shredder could keep coming back, and even when he was finally defeated, some other version of Shredder came in to take his place. A more Mirage-accurate cartoon with wide distribution should have been the perfect place to prove (or at least, try to prove) that a TMNT series can sustain itself without Shredder as the perpetual Big Bad, and they failed to do so, which means by extension, probably every new incarnation to come after, short of a highly unlikely one that tries to be even more Mirage-accurate, will remain haunted by that failure.

Shell; that's already looking to be provable in the current cartoon. Now in its fifth and supposedly final season, we initially thought we were getting a new, more menacing villain in Carvaxas, and what does he do as one of his first orders of business? Plots to revive Shredder. He'll probably succeed. When he does, Shredder will probably resume control. Everyone up-to-and-including aliens and demons bow to the pandering mandate of keeping Shredder the central conceptual figure of conflict in TMNT shows. Perhaps you can lay this originally at the feet of the Fred Wolf show, but if Laird and his allies had just elected to halt that trend along with many others when they had the chance, this wouldn't be a problem. They didn't, though, so it is.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

I share that sentiment, but for me the 4Kids show (not just limiting it to Ch'rel) had another big problem; it spun the Shredder as a concept into flat-out Mary-Sue territory. Worse even than Venus De Milo, I'd argue, because at least the damage she caused was fixed, but we're still living with what 4Kids Shredder inflicted. The problem wasn't just Alien Shredder; it was Karai Shredder, Demon Shredder, Cyber Shredder (Barf!) and they'd have probably kept adding more if the show kept going. Ch'rel was ultimately a Deus Ex machinca to make it so Shredder could keep coming back, and even when he was finally defeated, some other version of Shredder came in to take his place. A more Mirage-accurate cartoon with wide distribution should have been the perfect place to prove (or at least, try to prove) that a TMNT series can sustain itself without Shredder as the perpetual Big Bad, and they failed to do so, which means by extension, probably every new incarnation to come after, short of a highly unlikely one that tries to be even more Mirage-accurate, will remain haunted by that failure.

Shredder being a real human in 4kids made a lot of sense, and Ch'rell being an imposter made sense. Demon Shredder worked fine.

I agree Viral didn't have to become Cyber Shredder, but it was the last season and BTTS wasn't going to be particular great to begin with.

[Coola Yagami]

This whole discussion about mirage karai reminded me that somewhere in Japan is the true leader of the foot clan, who has never had any problem or reason to actually seek out and destroy the turtles. It just goes to show that while the turtles have caused trouble for the new York foot, they really did nothing in the bigger picture.

Sure they had no reason to go beyond Saki's branch but it's interesting to know the true foot clan continues to flourish in Japan despite Saki and Karai's American antics.

[TheCanadiandrome]

Subbed. Looks like a cool channel

[TigerClaw]

He posted a new video 5 days ago, It's a news report about a TMNT exhibit.

[Konchadunga]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Shredder being a real human in 4kids made a lot of sense, and Ch'rell being an imposter made sense. Demon Shredder worked fine.

I agree Viral didn't have to become Cyber Shredder, but it was the last season and BTTS wasn't going to be particular great to begin with.

I'm sorry, but to me the Ninja Tribunal is the lowest point in the whole series, so I can't agree about Human/Demon Shredder.

However, even if I had liked them, I wouldn't retreat from my principle that putting so much attention on one character or simply variations of that character was not a good thing. It is possible to imagine an incarnation of TMNT that wrote Venus in such a way that I'd accept her, but even if she was entertaining, I'd still call bull if she hogged the spotlight from the other turtles. I can't remember any TMNT incarnation where I didn't like Usagi's appearances, but if Usagi was promoted all the way up to being the central character in them I'd call bull on that, too.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

I'm sorry, but to me the Ninja Tribunal is the lowest point in the whole series, so I can't agree about Human/Demon Shredder.

However, even if I had liked them, I wouldn't retreat from my principle that putting so much attention on one character or simply variations of that character was not a good thing.

Human/Demon Shredder was everything the show was building up upon. It also makes a lot of sense and fit in well with the backstory in the 2k3 cartoon. I also thought the season itself was great, even with all the magic powers, because it tied everything in altogether.

Shredder was also gone for all of Season 4, (unless you count Karai in his armor), so his return in Season 5 had at least a 26 episode gap from the Season 3 finale.

[Konchadunga]

Originally Posted by ssjup81

How is being an optimist a fault? I like that he can find something good in everything, even if it's bad or enjoy it for what it is.

I think it's Eastman's particular circumstances that earn him a lot of the criticism he gets. Usually when people talk about the advantages of being an optimist, they're talking about scenarios where the cards people are dealt are largely beyond their control, and their only choice is between making the best of them or resenting them. Chances are that these are, in fact, Eastman's circumstances nowadays, but when he not only acts like he's in high positions of authority but other people in high positions of authority act like he is, inevitably people are going to conclude that he's just a gratuitous yes-man. That is, gratuitous on the assumption he has any real influence. If he doesn't, well, he should at least stop pretending, but if he does, then it's perfectly reasonable to wish he had more of an apparent vision for his series.

The job of people in control of something shouldn't be to see the good things in it; it should be to put the good things in it, and that requires having an attitude that there aren't enough good things in it yet. Eastman never seems to have any of that attitude, which again, either means that since he was at Mirage, he hasn't really had any real influence, or he does, but wastes it. I can't think of any time in recent memory I've heard him say anything like "Michael Bay wanted to do A, but I persuaded him to do B". He'll say he was an advisor and he signed off on things, but doesn't provide details.

Eastman's apparent lack of both ideas of his own, and criticism of other people's ideas, is why so many people are skeptical of him. Peter Laird has various opinions of various things. David Wise has various opinions of various things. Inevitably, some people won't share their opinions, but they don't have to for those opinions to be useful in deciding how much to listen to them to determine, say, if they should buy a movie ticket. When Peter Laird says he doesn't think highly of the Fred Wolf series, at least Fred Wolf fans can opt not to consider his opinions to have much merit in deciding that. When David Wise says he doesn't think highly of the Mirage series, at least Mirage fans can opt not to consider his opinions to have much merit in deciding that.

Kevin Eastman has essentially one opinion for everything turtles-related these days: It's good. Not even "I can see something good in it, and it is _____"; just "It's good". An opinion that is useless to everyone, because unlike almost every TMNT fan, he never defines what his idea of a bad turtles-related thing is. Unlike Laird and Wise, Eastman's vague statements actually have the ability to bring Mirage fans and Fred Wolf fans to full agreement that "This man's opinions aren't credible", in the same way a jar of sauce with its label missing can bring a person who loves meat and a vegan to full agreement that "I'm not sure if I want to eat this".

Also, as distasteful as it might be to say this about such a nice-seeming person, as someone who generally loves listening to interviews with content creators about how they created their content, I must say I find Kevin Eastman to be an incredibly dull person to listen to getting interviewed about such things. I think a lot of this is, again, he never tells any stories of how he had a certain idea and came to blows with someone who had a conflicting idea. Peter Laird could tell those sorts of stories. J Michael Stracynski has plenty of them to share about his time running The Real Ghostbusters. Lauren Faust and Bonnie Zacharle have both told them about how they had trouble wrestling and compromising with rivals over the direction of My Little Pony. I don't remember any of such stories in Eastman's statements, and this just earns him more skepticism, because quite self-evidently, the ability to tell a good story is necessary for someone who's creating and/or approving (it still isn't really clear which) works of fiction, and they should understand that good stories have conflict. They should understand that conflicting ideas and goals cause conflict. I'm not implying Eastman doesn't actually understand these things, but he comes off so constantly like he's trying to walk through a minefield that listening to his thoughts on things feels like a big waste of time. I'm not about to denigrate him overwhelmingly for being an optimist when no less a figure than Peter Laird has candidly blamed his decade of obsessing over quality control for making him a more bitter man, but nor will I denigrate his skeptics or stand idly by while others denigrate them, because those skeptics have a point.

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

I think it's Eastman's particular circumstances that earn him a lot of the criticism he gets. Usually when people talk about the advantages of being an optimist, they're talking about scenarios where the cards people are dealt are largely beyond their control, and their only choice is between making the best of them or resenting them. Chances are that these are, in fact, Eastman's circumstances nowadays, but when he not only acts like he's in high positions of authority but other people in high positions of authority act like he is, inevitably people are going to conclude that he's just a gratuitous yes-man. That is, gratuitous on the assumption he has any real influence. If he doesn't, well, he should at least stop pretending, but if he does, then it's perfectly reasonable to wish he had more of an apparent vision for his series.

I think the point the user you were responding to was making is that you can't go through life being cynical about everything. Sure I agree there's room for improvement but every iteration of the Turtles has something interesting to recommend it.

[ssjup81]

Originally Posted by pferreira

I think the point the user you were responding to was making is that you can't go through life being cynical about everything. Sure I agree there's room for improvement but every iteration of the Turtles has something interesting to recommend it.

Yeah, this pretty much. This is what I meant.

[Vegita-San]

Originally Posted by pferreira

I think the point the user you were responding to was making is that you can't go through life being cynical about everything. Sure I agree there's room for improvement but every iteration of the Turtles has something interesting to recommend it.

I find that if more people where cynical, we'd get less platinum dunes and next mutations, and more 4 kids ;o).

Is there really one likeable thing about bay turtles you can recommend with a straight face?

Or the Sing along Videos with turtles that had Bahamian accents IIRC?

Face it.. some things are best left not tried. while others, have enough merit that the few things wrong with it can either be over looked or given time to improve.

[Utrommaniac]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

I share that sentiment, but for me the 4Kids show (not just limiting it to Ch'rel) had another big problem; it spun the Shredder as a concept into flat-out Mary-Sue territory. Worse even than Venus De Milo, I'd argue, because at least the damage she caused was fixed, but we're still living with what 4Kids Shredder inflicted. The problem wasn't just Alien Shredder; it was Karai Shredder, Demon Shredder, Cyber Shredder (Barf!) and they'd have probably kept adding more if the show kept going. Ch'rel was ultimately a Deus Ex machinca to make it so Shredder could keep coming back, and even when he was finally defeated, some other version of Shredder came in to take his place. A more Mirage-accurate cartoon with wide distribution should have been the perfect place to prove (or at least, try to prove) that a TMNT series can sustain itself without Shredder as the perpetual Big Bad, and they failed to do so, which means by extension, probably every new incarnation to come after, short of a highly unlikely one that tries to be even more Mirage-accurate, will remain haunted by that failure.

There are a lot of things that could have made Ch'rell a better antagonist. The idea of him works in theory, but not in practice, especially when we didn't learn his origin story. An Utrom who took on the role of Shredder could work, but it went about all wrong.

Heck, a non-Krang Utrom as a "major antagonist" could work beautifully considering how intimately tied the Utroms are to the turtles origin.
Maybe Ch'rell was driving the truck with the mutagen was trying to create a PR Nightmare by causing major injuries and expose TCRI for what it really was. Likely out of spite, and having a thought as to how humans would respond to aliens in their midst - and in a post-9/11 world at that. And when that didn't work out, he zips off away from the other Utroms, assassinates Oroku Saki and takes his place...for reasons???
Following that, he goes after Hamato Yoshi, as he had been the leader of the Utrom Guardians and thought there would be vulnerable with his absence, and ends up in such a great heat of the moment that he forgets he'd have a successor. He might be smart, but his hastiness would drag him down.
Afterwards, he discovers Karai and empathizes with her being abandoned at a young age, as had been his fate.
My thinking cap isn't totally on, so some of those ideas might be rusty.

There's a lot of things in there that could be fixed.

[Konchadunga]

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

I find that if more people where cynical, we'd get less platinum dunes and next mutations, and more 4 kids ;o).

Is there really one likeable thing about bay turtles you can recommend with a straight face?

There is, actually: The combat. Or, likable isn't exactly the best word since not only is that subjective, but what I brought up is also unpleasant, but stll, if what you were asking about is wht solid and warranted innovation it brings to the brand, I still say PD's combat is because it's probably the most painful and lethal-looking TMNT fighting gets outside of Mirage.

The choreography in the Jim Henson films is very impressive from an athletic standpoint, but if I'm going to be perfectly honest it's a bit too pretty and fluid for me to take seriously the notion that there's a high-stakes good-vs-evil battle going on; instead of a gymnastics exhibition. It doesn't help that the Turtles are constantly grinning and quipping while they do it; as if they never think there's any chance they'll lose. By contrast, I find PD's combat to be ugly, but in a compelling way. The actual guns, the probable bone-breaking, the characters slamming each other against things, and finally, the Turtles' ability to recognize that all actually means something bad.