TMNT - The John Byrne Thread

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I do! I do have that! Although I have to re-read it, it's been far too long. Good pull!

Totally off-topic, but y'know what else was kinda neat, was that arc in "'Tec" around that time, or shortly after, with the serial killer who said he was "Batman" and was inspired by the in-universe comic book where Batman was some kind of Vengeance Demon. That late-80s/early-90s Batman stuff was off the chain, man.

But back to Byrne, y'know what I loved as a kid? That Superman issue where Joker showed up in Metroplis, Just Because. That was one'a my favorites back then. You almost never got a Superman Vs. Joker story, and it's like "Why not?" That was a good'n.

ONE OF THE GREATEST COMICS IN THE HISTORY OF THE MEDIUM!

[Galactus]

Sure Eastman and Laird are two guys who got lucky and a lot of the appeal of those early comics was it's haphazard home made nature however the two of them did improve quite a lot - you could even make an argument that the more polished they became as creators the more series lost some of it's initial quirky charm - but I do think they made some objectively good stuff.

Most of the big names in comic books only work for the big 2 until they get disillusioned with it. Still Murphy was critically lauded for his work on The Puma Blues when he went to work on turtles (granted he probably did it for he money and teach the kids about environmentalism, labour unions, the occupation of Tibet and spirituality) he also got Michael Zulli to work on property and Rick Remender. We know many big name writers have a soft spot for the property they just don't want to slum it on an indie book.

Sure, TMNT made a bigger name for themselves in animation and movies and toys and so on but that is true of all comic characters. Sure, TMNT is notable by how different the version that launched the franchise into the stratosphere is to the original but it's still at it's core the very same basic ideas and characters.

This isn't really disparage Byrne's record but it's not exactly a huge suprise that he doesn't 'get' TMNT. The vast majority of his career is taking other peoples works and making his own head canon reality. Since he didn't grow up with he simply dismisses it. Not a simple 'this isn't for me' but he seems to have zero interest in it unless he has a nostalgic fondness for it.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by PizzaPower1985

ONE OF THE GREATEST COMICS IN THE HISTORY OF THE MEDIUM!

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20060115163131

Sigh. That cover just jumped right off the rack. What a classic. So mind-blowing to a 5-year old.

What a clever story, too, with Joker using a very common misunderstanding of Superman's powers and essentially outsmarting himself into failing. Good sh*t, pal.

And the reasoning for why bother going to Metropolis and pestering Superman in the first place? "Ohhhhh, Superman... Why NOT?" Direct and to the point.

Y'know what else gets me hard, is all'a that early Silver Banshee stuff. SO GOOD, man. That one issue where they had Martian Manhunter help him out was keen.

People always comment on how incredible it is that Byrne's Superman run was so memorable despite being, ultimately, very short. But I mean, he did nothing BUT gold on the book(s) when he was on them, that's why. About a two-year run, not very long for Byrne, but long enough to make serious, serious impact and everything's a winner. It felt like he did five years of work instead of two because he was just so completely on fire with it.

Passing the torch to Jurgens was a very wise decision, even though I hated to see Byrne leave. But really, the fact that there didn't even seem to be much disruption, and all of Byrne's work still showed up in the book for the next 15+ years, speaks incredibly highly to just how impactful it was. He worked on Superman for two years, but they were still referencing his stuff for the next 20. That's incredible! Like even Dan was just playing in the sandbox Byrne built, and was obviously very reverent towards what Byrne had done. He didn't come in and try to overwrite it, he just kept it going.

Siiiiigh, those were the days, man. You went and got me all misty.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Galactus

This isn't really disparage Byrne's record but it's not exactly a huge suprise that he doesn't 'get' TMNT. The vast majority of his career is taking other peoples works and making his own head canon reality. Since he didn't grow up with he simply dismisses it. Not a simple 'this isn't for me' but he seems to have zero interest in it unless he has a nostalgic fondness for it.

Or, another way of looking at it is, when you're up high in the Penthouse, you're less inclined to concern yourself with what's going on down in The Slums. Harsh, but truthful.

It's like why guys who work for WWE don't watch indy wrestling in high school gyms. Why would they? Sure, some of those guys are "better", but they're not on the radar of anyone making a million dollars a year, nor should they be. They're barely even in the same business. Likewise, guys who work "Up Top" are often dismissive of the guys "Down Below". That's only natural, it doesn't make 'em bad people or anything.

Byrne never cared about TMNT because he was never inclined to care, he had no reason to. He was a millionaire juggling multiple "big" comics when the Mirage book came out, he probably never even heard of it. Did his kids watch the cartoon? I don't know, but that might be the only reason he ever heard of it in the first place, if so. MOST creators working in the industry back then only heard of TMNT when the cartoon hit, because they weren't in the business of being "fans" and they weren't following the independent scene, they were busy. Just like Seth Rollins has no idea who Joey Janela is. Why would he? Why would a guy who headlines PPVs know anything about a guy who works in front of 200 people in a gymnasium? Again, it's not all equal.

Maybe Byrne's a bit "snooty" about it, but so what? I've said this many times, and I know it irks some people here, but it's true nonetheless: If you weren't about 6 when you first saw TMNT, then TMNT just isn't a big deal. That was true to the generation that saw them in 1988, and it's true of people just discovering them now. It's Kids' Stuff, you need to be a kid when you first see it to really think it's cool. Otherwise, it's silly. Byrne was already an older guy when he would have first heard of TMNT, so it wouldn't even have any appeal for him in the first place.

I'm not saying that TMNT isn't a thing a person can encounter as kids and then still appreciate for their entire lives, because we all know better than that; what I AM saying, is that the things that make TMNT appealing are things that predominantly target The Very Young, and that's why older people who see it for the first time almost unanimously think it's stupid. It's like Star Wars or pro wrestling; nobody gets into either of those things for the very first time as adults, because they're stupid things! 99.9% of adults who care about either of those things, were like 5 the first time they saw them. That's just how these things go, and opinions on Other Peoples' Opinions should be adjusted accordingly. No grown-up (as Byrne was when TMNT was created) is gonna look at something like TMNT and think it's anything but junk. That's forgivable, in my opinion. They're not the audience.

Expecting John Byrne to have any appreciation for a brand that he was never in any way the audience for, is like asking a second grader who their favorite porn star is. They might have an opinion, but they're not the audience anyway, so nothing they say should have much of an effect.

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by Galactus

Sure Eastman and Laird are two guys who got lucky and a lot of the appeal of those early comics was it's haphazard home made nature however the two of them did improve quite a lot - you could even make an argument that the more polished they became as creators the more series lost some of it's initial quirky charm - but I do think they made some objectively good stuff.

Most of the big names in comic books only work for the big 2 until they get disillusioned with it. Still Murphy was critically lauded for his work on The Puma Blues when he went to work on turtles (granted he probably did it for he money and teach the kids about environmentalism, labour unions, the occupation of Tibet and spirituality) he also got Michael Zulli to work on property and Rick Remender. We know many big name writers have a soft spot for the property they just don't want to slum it on an indie book.

Sure, TMNT made a bigger name for themselves in animation and movies and toys and so on but that is true of all comic characters. Sure, TMNT is notable by how different the version that launched the franchise into the stratosphere is to the original but it's still at it's core the very same basic ideas and characters.

This isn't really disparage Byrne's record but it's not exactly a huge suprise that he doesn't 'get' TMNT. The vast majority of his career is taking other peoples works and making his own head canon reality. Since he didn't grow up with he simply dismisses it. Not a simple 'this isn't for me' but he seems to have zero interest in it unless he has a nostalgic fondness for it.

That last point is incredibly accurate. Byrne only enjoys books and is fond of them if he either created/worked on their characters OR grew up reading them. Kudos. You win the golden cupie doll. The rest of your argument about the Mirage stuff... is more just observational. Steve Murphy, not a big name compared to JB. Remender? The guys you mention are not even comparable to Byrne or Eastman and Laird for that matter. They are work for hire guys. They've rarely if ever done anything of note. Eastman and Laird are comics legends because of their creations. They might be underground guys but they're legends. Byrne, largely because of his 1980s meteoric rise and success is in a completely different class.

Originally Posted by Leo656

Sigh. That cover just jumped right off the rack. What a classic. So mind-blowing to a 5-year old.

What a clever story, too, with Joker using a very common misunderstanding of Superman's powers and essentially outsmarting himself into failing. Good sh*t, pal.

And the reasoning for why bother going to Metropolis and pestering Superman in the first place? "Ohhhhh, Superman... Why NOT?" Direct and to the point.

Y'know what else gets me hard, is all'a that early Silver Banshee stuff. SO GOOD, man. That one issue where they had Martian Manhunter help him out was keen.

People always comment on how incredible it is that Byrne's Superman run was so memorable despite being, ultimately, very short. But I mean, he did nothing BUT gold on the book(s) when he was on them, that's why. About a two-year run, not very long for Byrne, but long enough to make serious, serious impact and everything's a winner. It felt like he did five years of work instead of two because he was just so completely on fire with it.

Passing the torch to Jurgens was a very wise decision, even though I hated to see Byrne leave. But really, the fact that there didn't even seem to be much disruption, and all of Byrne's work still showed up in the book for the next 15+ years, speaks incredibly highly to just how impactful it was. He worked on Superman for two years, but they were still referencing his stuff for the next 20. That's incredible! Like even Dan was just playing in the sandbox Byrne built, and was obviously very reverent towards what Byrne had done. He didn't come in and try to overwrite it, he just kept it going.

Siiiiigh, those were the days, man. You went and got me all misty.

All this Superman talk is making my geek radar light up. But Byrne left the \S/ books for the largely same reason he left the F.F. books at Marvel. He was growing impatient and tired of editorial and apparently, according to him, the Superman he was writing started to become a different character than the Superman that DC was marketing on the lunchboxes and bedsheets and Pez dispensers. So, apparently it stopped being fun and he quit...

Watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjNIQk03AmE

[Leo656]

But man, that hand-off to Jurgens was so seamless that as a kid I frankly barely noticed. It was such a smooth transition. And Jurgens did PHENOMENAL stuff with the ideas that Byrne had built, it was just masterful.

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by Leo656

But man, that hand-off to Jurgens was so seamless that as a kid I frankly barely noticed. It was such a smooth transition. And Jurgens did PHENOMENAL stuff with the ideas that Byrne had built, it was just masterful.

Oh I'll definitely agree. The Stern/Jurgens/Carlin era after Byrne left was incredible. Jurgens' Superman art (maybe after Byrne???) is the best Superman art since Swan and has never been topped since.

That hand-off was a masterstroke!

[Dejablue]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Jesus Christ, there ought to be a hefty fine for saying such ignorant things out loud.

John Byrne has contributed more to the comic book industry every time he scratches his ass than Eastman and Laird have in their entire f*cking lives. C'mon. Don't be ridiculous.

I just don't give a f-uck about most super hero comic IPs. In fact I think Xmen is kind of stupid...

I'll watch their cartoon counterparts if I have nothing better to do. But I don't have enough disposable cash, to buy a bunch of comics or a place to put them.

I care about the TMNT. I don't care about Superman, X-Men or the Fantastic Four. That's all I can really say for myself.

[Leo656]

That's fine if it's the truth; it's just not something to be worn proudly like a badge of honor, that's all.

Some things are worth bragging about. Getting laid Freshman year, making the play that wins the Big Game, solving a Rubik's Cube with one hand, nailing the Bridesmaid at your sister's wedding while her boyfriend's at the bar... these are all brag-worthy accomplishments, certainly.

Saying, "I ignore Good Comics because I strongly prefer Mediocre-To-Bad ones as a matter of personal taste" isn't something to be shouted defiantly from the rooftops, though. Not by anyone.

It's like sure, lots of things are true. Some people really hate Guns N Roses while at the same time really, really, REALLY loving Limp Bizkit. It's a true fact, some people are just wired like that. But y'know what else is a true fact? Those People generally have enough sense to keep that sh*t entirely to themselves, because even they know they're lunatics.

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by Dejablue

I just don't give a f-uck about most super hero comic IPs. In fact I think Xmen is kind of stupid...

I'll watch their cartoon counterparts if I have nothing better to do. But I don't have enough disposable cash, to buy a bunch of comics or a place to put them.

I care about the TMNT. I don't care about Superman, X-Men or the Fantastic Four. That's all I can really say for myself.

That just means you're a TMNT fan. If you read only TMNT comics and don't like other superheroes or comics and GN's in general, you cannot ever be called a comics fan. Simple truth. It's just when you come into a thread about a comics creator and you see a couple of his fans conversing, why feel the need to comment at all? You're a TMNT fan... right? If you don't like Byrne, don't know his work and generally don't read or like other superheroes, why chime in?

Just curious, HONEY! Don't hate me. I'm not a jerk... just a curious, perhaps condescending, fan, sweetheart!

[Dejablue]

Because I can do and say whatever the f-uck I want and you're an idiot for thinking I don't have that right.

But seriously I don't owe you an explanation. You asked a question on a TMNT forum dumbass. I'm a member here. So I get to talk here.

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by Dejablue

Because I can do and say whatever the f-uck I want and you're an idiot for thinking I don't have that right.

But seriously I don't owe you an explanation. You asked a question on a TMNT forum dumbass. I'm a member here. So I get to talk here.

Ouch! Don't hurt yourself, there, buddy. I call you honey and sweetheart and you call me idiot and dumbass? Now, that's not very nice! I was asking a legitimate question in the "why feel the need to comment at all" thing. Did I condescend? Maybe a little bit, yeah, but that's just because my ass is smart. Sorry for the mix up. There, I apologized. Your turn. Please apologize to me and we'll move on!

[Dejablue]

Originally Posted by PizzaPower1985

Ouch! Don't hurt yourself, there, buddy. I call you honey and sweetheart and you call me idiot and dumbass? Now, that's not very nice! I was asking a legitimate question in the "why feel the need to comment at all" thing. Did I condescend? Maybe a little bit, yeah, but that's just because my ass is smart. Sorry for the mix up. There, I apologized. Your turn. Please apologize to me and we'll move on!

Don't ever question my decision to post anywhere in this forum.

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by Dejablue

Don't ever question my decision to post anywhere in this forum.

It wasn't exactly questioning your right per se to post here (you obviously always have that right), it was more just about asking why exactly you made the post you decided to make. Okay! Fair enough. Can we shake hands now? Friends?

[Leo656]

Deja's hyper-overreactions to even the tiniest bit of sass are both comical and tragic.

Self-awareness, Champ. P.P.85 and I might've been razzing you a little bit, but you invited it with your opening statement and it's all in fun, anyway. Not a good look to get all huffy when you say silly things and people in turn take umbrage to those things, and merely explain why those things are silly to say.

You are what we in the wrestling business call "un-coachable". As in, people often try and explain why you're offsides, and rather than say "Oh, I understand better now, thanks for the dialog", you get all "Screw you" this and "Don't ever tell me" that and calling people names. You take things personally when they're not. You take swings at people who aren't swinging at you. It's all very silly.

If you're not into the conversation, it's probably best to leave it alone. If you can't take a poke, then don't poke. No need to jump right to Attack Mode in what was previously a lighthearted exchange. I know that's generally your gimmick, but it's not a good look. You're obviously insightful in other threads, and that's awesome; More That, Less This.

That's my bit of good advice that I predict you're going to tell me to stick up my ass for no reason at all. But that's on you, I'unno. I just try and spread a little cheer and goodwill whenever the opportunity arises, people can like it or not, that's their prerogative. I'm only here to help.