07-11-2014, 06:40 PM | #101 |
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07-11-2014, 07:33 PM | #102 |
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those are really good points that do make a lot of sense, tho i still personally don't think its such a big deal to do a pallete swap. maybe it IS just to be controversial or whatever, but as long as the execution is done well, the work itself will speak over the controversy and level out the waves caused by the change. one thing i'm curious about is how you feel about movies and tv in this sitch. what if the best actress they found for april in this flick happened to be black or hispanic? what if the work ethic, chemistry and overall personality of an ethnic actress fit the actual movie-making process for this film better. in this case there is an organic reason to make the change, but its not one that has to do with plot or story. the controversy is sure to come along, the same as it would for any other reason in this situation, but the justification is "well, this actress has better chops and fits the cast and crew better than any of these other actresses." would it be better to not rock the boat or keep everything as its always been?
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07-11-2014, 07:43 PM | #103 |
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I agree that it shouldn't matter if a character is black or white. Truly I do. But the problem with this kind of discussion is that in changing an established character, the people arguing for the change tend to disregard that if it doesn't matter that a character is black or white, then there should be no reason to change the character in the first place.
And so, there are two truths here: Truth #1, it shouldn't matter what race a character is unless that race is somehow pivotal to the character's depiction or struggles in the story. Truth #2, characters are changed seemingly with disregard to the fact that just as other races want representation, so do white people. However, the modern trend is to make white people villains if they disagree with a change, which in of itself is actually racist against white people. The reality is simple: stop usurping characters when some people feel have an established heritage, and instead be creative and create new, important characters of diverse backgrounds. Again, it's not one or the other. Both things can be true. This country needs a smart, well rounded generation of young people - not a generation of manipulators. |
07-11-2014, 08:13 PM | #104 | |||
trash
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There's absolutely nothing wrong with changing an established character to be non-white, or to be more inclusive in general. I woke up this morning to the usual round of "BAWWW, GAY AGENDA" re what they're doing with upping the quota of LGBT characters in the Batgirl series. It's ridiculous, this attitude that "oh, I can't relate to a character if they're black, or gay, or a woman - I don't want to read about that... PC gone mad grumble grumble grumble". People of color are woefully underrepresented in pop culture, and I'm personally sick of it. The entire world isn't made up of straight, white people. Entertainment should be diversified to reflect the world that we live in, not to maintain an outdated status quo. White people dominate the majority of entertainment out there. White people have enough privilege as it is. We're not a disenfranchised race, we're not somehow being discriminated against if a previously white character is now being written as black.
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07-11-2014, 08:48 PM | #105 |
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To what ends, though? People can rightly argue, "well, a majority of characters were created in less-enlightened times," but does that give another creator license to go back and tinker with someone else's work? Do we go back and remove every single offensive word from, say, Huck Finn, because we want the character to seem more progressive or enlightened? Why not go all the way, make Huck himself black, and take all the heat off of him entirely? Just make him black so that he can in no way be portrayed as a bigot, despite how often he uses That Word. Seems to make sense on the surface, right? Or, would that be completely undoing the original spirit of the work? Granted, that's an extreme example, but frankly, I'm not comfortable with taking someone else's work and changing it outright, even if it's done with good intentions.
I also don't think you can move forward by looking or reaching backwards. I genuinely think it's more earnest and effective when people come up with new characters. For one thing, it requires a lot more effort and thought on the part of the writer/creator, and shows they're actually trying. I find the New Paint Job "solution" to be pandering. I think it comes from the right place in the heart, but it's a very shallow and cynical approach to solving a much deeper problem. You know who else I really liked? Ron Troupe, the guy who replaced Clark at the Daily Planet when Clark/Superman was dead. There was another really solid black character that got totally swept under the rug a few years later, after a ton of build-up and execution. Why can't we have more of that instead? They actually did the work! Every time someone suggests color-swapping an existing character, we lose a character like that, it seems. I actually find that less progressive, personally. I mean, I get what people are getting at, I just think there's a natural way to handle it and a forced way to handle it. I mean, there was a time when almost any new racially-specific character was also a blatant stereotype, so even that wasn't the greatest idea itself, but we're way past that by a few decades. I'd just generally rather see more, better new stuff than tweaks to old stuff. I'm not a huge fan of retcons in general.
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07-11-2014, 09:21 PM | #106 |
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Laird says that April was never intended to be black and although his memory is kind of bad I think he'd remember something like that. So there. I think it would be odd to change her race entirely at this point. TMNT can do way better with having a more racialized cast; however Hamato Yoshi, Oroku Saki and Karai are Japanese, Baxter Stockman is usually black (not that that's particularly good, since he's usually a joke), and Angel is sort of mixed race in some way. It would be nice if she didn't come from the rough side of town, though. Kind of stereotypical.
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07-11-2014, 09:42 PM | #107 |
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I don't think he would -- I don't think Laird cared that much about April's race.
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07-11-2014, 10:20 PM | #108 | ||||
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1) Huck Finn is a particularly terrible example because his racial ignorance is actually part of that story, as opposed to, say, too-white comic-book casts which just handwave diversity because of the era they were written in, no other agenda. But, more saliently, 2) Huck Finn isn't a franchise character. He hasn't changed. He wasn't made to change hands between authors. There aren't new versions of him every year. He isn't an evergreen, in-print-every-month, endlessly re-imagined character. Comic-book properties, including Turtles, are. They change all the time for any number of reasons, have multiple versions running at once, etc. They stay updated. Which brings me to the question I brought up last page: Quote:
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There's zero reason the next version of TMNT couldn't have Angel and a non-white April. Quote:
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07-11-2014, 10:41 PM | #109 | |
trash
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I dunno, I could just be talking out of my butt here - I'm not in the world's best mood today so feel free to take what I've said with a grain of salt.
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07-11-2014, 10:44 PM | #110 |
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Cipher: Admittedly, sometimes I use broad strokes to make a point. The point was: Franchise character or one-off, is it either necessary or proper to take an existing fictional work, make a judgment of it, say "We know better now than we did then," and then alter and re-present it? In either case, I'd argue that it's not, in fact, necessary. It was a broad example on purpose, because if you can do that with one type of fiction, it may as well be "allowed" to "re-imagine" everything.
And that's where it goes away from specifically being about race (or religion, or sexual orientation), and becomes about, "I don't think retcons are a good idea, in general, and people would be better served to create their own original ideas rather than tinker with what others have done." Not trying to shut down any conversation, just a personal point of view that retconning in general is lazy storytelling and that color-swapping is a flimsy example of progression, one that often rings false. Pennydreadful: I get it, I just think race-swapping pre-existing characters is more an illusion or progress than any actual progress. The creators get to have it both ways, playing the role of forward-thinkers without having to do any actual work or actually address any issues. I get the "any progress is an improvement" point of view, I just don't embrace it, and feel that, in some cases, it stifles real change. But I totally get where it comes from: Usually, a genuine desire to see some more diversity in fiction. Which is great, just do it the right way. Put a little more thought into it than, "Well, it's the same character you always knew, just a different tone of ink." I think it over-simplifies a complex issue.
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07-11-2014, 10:45 PM | #111 |
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Leo656 is pretty much saying what I'm thinking. What I don't like is when they change a characters race when they easily could have just used an existing character. Like why did Marlon Wayans have to be Ripcord in G.I. Joe? Couldn't he just have been Stalker, Alpine, Doc, Iceberg or any of the other black characters? Or why couldn't Laurence Fishburne have played Franklin Stern in Man of Steel? Would that have ruined the movie?
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07-11-2014, 10:57 PM | #112 | |
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Splinter was a rat and now sometimes he's a former-human. Sometimes he's an asshole and other times he's father of the year. Karai went from an honorable, middle-aged ninja executive to Shredder's sycophant evil granddaughter. Sometimes the Turtles are reincarnated Japanese children. Which is all fine, because, hey, different versions. Baxter Stockman is Baxter Stockman whether he's black, white or purple (and he's actually on the consistent side of this franchise, character-wise). We've already seen changes so extreme the characters only resemble other versions in name and general concept. How would it be any different if, next Turtles incarnation, April wasn't a white redhead? Last edited by Cipher; 07-11-2014 at 11:06 PM. |
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07-11-2014, 10:57 PM | #113 | |
Foot Elite
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though I'd just know people would rage saying "where's April??, why couldn't they just have April instead??" XD
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07-11-2014, 11:11 PM | #114 | |
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...Franklin Stern, I should note, who's been erased from recent continuity entirely. There's another strong and above all originally created black character, that editors in more recent, "more progressive" times have swept under the rug. What, a black guy can't be the owner/publisher of the freakin' Daily Planet in the New 52? BAH. Come to think of it, though, but Superman comics sure did have a lot of people of color in positions of power and/or taking up prime storytelling real estate in the years since 1986. I mean, it's usually pretty subtle, but it's always been there. Steel. Franklin Stern. Keith. All original characters who were presented on equal ground with the established cast. See, I like that. Put the message out there without clubbing anyone over the head with it. And, unlike what would inevitably have happened if the editors had, say, changed Jimmy Olsen, I don't recall anyone raising any objection to those new characters at all based on race, and in fact, they were all very well-received, Steel in particular. I just feel it works better that way. When people aren't so distracted by Change, they can more fully embrace the actual character. Cipher: I do get what you're saying, and all I can offer is, I've also argued often that I wish the various TMNT interpretations weren't SO disparate so that people could occasionally be more on the same page with things. Lots of differing points of view on that, obviously. I do think it's a flaw in any franchise, frankly, when there's 6 or 7 wildly different versions of the same "basic origin story". I think it limits inclusion and accessibility whenever the answer to a question as simple as, "What is this character's origin?" is to say, "Which one? In THIS version..." I think it's a huge reason why a lot of people dismiss comics and cartoons outright. But again, that's opening up an entirely new and different can of worms.
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07-12-2014, 02:20 AM | #115 |
Sewerhead
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April is most recognizable as a redhead white girl like Barbara Gordon, but if they changed her up to be some other race I really wouldn't care too much. As long as they're not like "NEW BLACK APRIL WITH FRIED CHICKEN AND GRAPE SODA ACCESSORIES" and describe her as "THE TURTLES' WELFARE MOM FRIEND" I'm down with it.
They already played with her age and it turned out well. No reason they couldn't change her race, too. |
07-12-2014, 04:09 AM | #116 |
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SHE IS NOT WHITE, SHE IS GINGER
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07-12-2014, 06:41 AM | #117 | |
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07-12-2014, 07:23 AM | #118 |
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I like your design! Strangely enough, it doesn't look all that different to me from what I've come to expect April to look like... reminds me quite a bit of some of Ross Campbell's April drawings.
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07-12-2014, 08:13 AM | #119 |
Thug
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Thank you! Ross is a cutie pie and he's going to get an ego boost from this when I tell him XD
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07-12-2014, 08:19 AM | #120 |
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Why is this so controversial? Yes, it's a little jarring that she's black, but as long as she acts like April O'Neil, it shouldn't matter.
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Tags |
april, april o'neil, curious (black), cybercubedtheracist, dc comics, everything is racist, im offended, mirage, plastroncuckold, racist |
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