Inconsistencies with Mutants?

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

The Turtles and Splinter are skilled fighters because they are the reincarnated Hamato Clan, but how is it that mutants like Koya and Alopex are so skilled at fighting when they don't have the previous life experience to fall back on?

How do Herman the Hermit Crab and Mondo Gecko develop such radical personalities within what I'm assuming is no more than the span of a single week? Old Hob at least had the "benefit" of being Stockman's lab rat, so he could easily develop skills for weaponry, deceit, and manipulation... but where did Slash become so proficient at meditation and disabling security systems? From one little injection?

This seems to be one of those things where if you think about it critically, it falls apart. You just grin and accept it, so that you can enjoy the awesomeness. But this really bugs me when I allow myself to think about it...

[ChosenOne]

Personally, I figure that until we're told otherwise every mutant has a reincarnated soul. It's just that we don't know about that bit of their backstory because they're not our main characters, the Turtles and Splinter are.

But then again, who knows... Maybe the IDW team will delve into that, the Kitsune/Rat King/etc arc will likely be heavier on the mystical and metaphysical side of things than what we've seen so far.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by ChosenOne

Personally, I figure that until we're told otherwise every mutant has a reincarnated soul. It's just that we don't know about that bit of their backstory because they're not our main characters, the Turtles and Splinter are.

But then again, who knows... Maybe the IDW team will delve into that, the Kitsune/Rat King/etc arc will likely be heavier on the mystical and metaphysical side of things than what we've seen so far.

I can live with that explanation okay, but it seems to me that all of the non-heroes (Hob, Alopex, and Koya especially) all strongly identify with their former animal self. STRONGLY: Koya used to be Shredder's pet, Alopex goes into a murderous rage against Shredder when he kills her fox family and burns down the forest, and Hob still holding a grudge against the family that threw him out into the snow to die.

Whereas, the Turtles and Splinter NEVER reflect on their animal past; only ever on their past human lives.

[ChosenOne]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

I can live with that explanation okay, but it seems to me that all of the non-heroes (Hob, Alopex, and Koya especially) all strongly identify with their former animal self. STRONGLY: Koya used to be Shredder's pet, Alopex goes into a murderous rage against Shredder when he kills her fox family and burns down the forest, and Hob still holding a grudge against the family that threw him out into the snow to die.

Whereas, the Turtles and Splinter NEVER reflect on their animal past; only ever on their past human lives.

What caught my eye about your original post was the question of these other mutants' proficiency at various skills that they would have no way of knowing or learning as their animal selves. Well, maybe it's all subconscious, but it definitely doesn't mean they haven't been reincarnated.

It's not like the Turtles themselves only started ninja-ing and/or feeling like Splinter's sons when they were told they had been just that in a previous life... So the basics are there, but they won't know until they're told. Maybe Herman was around for the Civil War in his previous life. Maybe Hob used to be a Cold War or 40's double agent, he certainly has the noir look down in City Fall. Maybe Mondo was alive as a human back in the 90's. Maybe Koya was a Foot Clan lieutenant. Maybe Alopex was originally an Alaskan resident (and at least in her case, I'm pretty sure she had training post-mutation). A lot of maybes.

My point, in case I'm not being as clear as it sounds in my head because it's late here and I'm tired, is that the mutants only remember their lives as animals because they don't even know there was something else before that. Splinter did because of the serum. The Turtles do because he told them (and they had a hard time believing, too). The others haven't been around long enough, or we haven't had a sufficiently good look at their characters - not as good as we've had at the Turtles and Splinter at any rate - to know for sure.

Time will tell, I guess. Sorry for the rant.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by ChosenOne

What caught my eye about your original post was the question of these other mutants' proficiency at various skills that they would have no way of knowing or learning as their animal selves. Well, maybe it's all subconscious, but it definitely doesn't mean they haven't been reincarnated.

It's not like the Turtles themselves only started ninja-ing and/or feeling like Splinter's sons when they were told they had been just that in a previous life... So the basics are there, but they won't know until they're told. Maybe Herman was around for the Civil War in his previous life. Maybe Hob used to be a Cold War or 40's double agent, he certainly has the noir look down in City Fall. Maybe Mondo was alive as a human back in the 90's. Maybe Koya was a Foot Clan lieutenant. Maybe Alopex was originally an Alaskan resident (and at least in her case, I'm pretty sure she had training post-mutation). A lot of maybes.

My point, in case I'm not being as clear as it sounds in my head because it's late here and I'm tired, is that the mutants only remember their lives as animals because they don't even know there was something else before that. Splinter did because of the serum. The Turtles do because he told them (and they had a hard time believing, too). The others haven't been around long enough, or we haven't had a sufficiently good look at their characters - not as good as we've had at the Turtles and Splinter at any rate - to know for sure.

Time will tell, I guess. Sorry for the rant.

Thanks for the reply, ChosenOne! You really thought this out well, and I think I'm sold on your POV now.

My main frustration (minor, but a frustration) was not that they learned things like operating heavy firearms and artillery, but how quickly it happened.

When you pointed out that only Splinter knew he was reincarnated, and he was the only one injected with the serum, that makes perfect sense. Nobody else knows that they're anything other than a mutated animal... but those skills and personalities didn't just randomly happen.

Thank you again! Now I'm hopeful that maybe at some point in the upcoming mystic battle, one of the Turtles or Splinter will get a glimpse behind the curtain and maybe we'll see who these other mutants were in their past lives--how cool would that be!?

[neatoman]

I think an explaination given was that the mutagen was intended as a form of super soldier serum, that's why Hun went from being drunken loser who can barely take of himself to not only just beefed up, but also clever enough to greatly expand the Dragons in such a short amount of time. The mutagen has a psychological boost, so it's not outside the realm of possibility that the mutagen itself made them easier to train in fighting.

Presumably this was originally written as a fail-safe in case the whole reincarnation thing turned out to be a massive turn-off for fans, but it's still there and can still be used to explain things.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by neatoman

I think an explaination given was that the mutagen was intended as a form of super soldier serum, that's why Hun went from being drunken loser who can barely take of himself to not only just beefed up, but also clever enough to greatly expand the Dragons in such a short amount of time. The mutagen has a psychological boost, so it's not outside the realm of possibility that the mutagen itself made them easier to train in fighting.

Presumably this was originally written as a fail-safe in case the whole reincarnation thing turned out to be a massive turn-off for fans, but it's still there and can still be used to explain things.

Yes, but a boost in raw intellect is not the same as forming personalities. I think reincarnation covers the bases much better, per ChosenOne.

[Duke Nukem]

I wondered the same thing about that, especially Herman. It's not as if he was in the army, unless he got on a wrong bus at some point like the Mirage Leonardo and Donatello. I find that to be unlikely, because these days someone at MEPS would probably notice the fact that he's a giant hermit crab with a dumpster instead of a person. The reincarnation theory makes as much sense as any for their personalities. Herman could have been killed in Mogadishu, and Mondo Gecko could have brained himself skateboarding before helmet laws were a major thing.

[miru]

Originally Posted by Duke Nukem

I wondered the same thing about that, especially Herman. It's not as if he was in the army, unless he got on a wrong bus at some point like the Mirage Leonardo and Donatello. I find that to be unlikely, because these days someone at MEPS would probably notice the fact that he's a giant hermit crab with a dumpster instead of a person. The reincarnation theory makes as much sense as any for their personalities. Herman could have been killed in Mogadishu, and Mondo Gecko could have brained himself skateboarding before helmet laws were a major thing.

This topic gets even more interesting with that mutant Leatherhead saved a seal from, which seemed to be even less sapient than Pete, if it were sapient at all. Maybe a reincarnated animal Mutation is a coincidence and stroke of luck to bring personalities back to the forefront? Alopex was a victim of Jack the Ripper (or maybe the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire), Bludgeon and Koya were two medieval Foot Ninja, Man Ray was a Native American defending his land...

I wonder who LH used to be...?

EDIT: Maybe Sally was a suffragette who died in prison?

[ChosenOne]

Originally Posted by miru

Man Ray was a Native American defending his land...

I understand this'll sound like I'm being an asshole but I'm actually genuinely curious, where do you get this interpretation of IDW Man Ray from?

Originally Posted by miru

I wonder who LH used to be...?

Literally Frankenstein's monster, probably. Or at least someone with tremendous deep-seated issues.

[Damo]

No-prizing this, because I think the "everyone's reincarnated" explanation opens more cans of worms than is a good idea.

Null-brand "Products": Some sort of advanced training regimen partially implanted subconsciously. They can't force a personality or obedience (yet), but they've had success implanting some "skills".

Foot Clan mutants: Kitsune used magic to give the mutants skills copied from existing Foot clan members, and may have shown someone else how to do it.

Everyone else: the mutagen brings things they observed as animals into sharp relief, so Herman and Mondo's old owners watching lots of war movies/skating videos translates into skills, especially with the extremely hardy bodies they've got now.

I mean, the Foot wanted ninjas and Null wanted combat aces and pilots. If it was just reincarnation then, what, the universe just goes "oh hey, you want a ninja? Have a ninja's soul, sure, no problem, I'll give you exactly what you're asking for. On the house"?

Reincarnation is a dicey thing to bring into the mix to begin with, but throwing in that EXACTLY the right soul gets plucked for whatever the mutator wants? That seems to be pushing things way more.

[DrSpengler]

What I got out of it was that there were three components to "perfect" mutagen:

Ooze, the base component that regenerates or enhances.

Mutagen, the processed version that turns animals into anthropomorphs with limited intellects.

Mutagen + Psychotropic serum, the "perfect" version that mutates animals but also gives them human level intellects and personalities.


A big part of the "New Mutant Order" arc involved Hob needing the psychotropic serum to perfect the existing mutagen so his mutants would be intelligent and have personalities. Hence why Mondo and Herman are fully formed individuals upon creation, whereas Slash and Pete were simpletons upon creation.

The whole ooze/mutagen/psychotropic serum thing in IDW was one of its more confusing aspects, complicating something that before now was always pretty simple. I imagine there are some hitches in it (did Hob's mutagen have the psychotropic serum in it to give him the intellect and personality? I mean, it must have), but they've been pretty consistent with how it works so far.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

What I got out of it was that there were three components to "perfect" mutagen:

Ooze, the base component that regenerates or enhances.

Mutagen, the processed version that turns animals into anthropomorphs with limited intellects.

Mutagen + Psychotropic serum, the "perfect" version that mutates animals but also gives them human level intellects and personalities.


A big part of the "New Mutant Order" arc involved Hob needing the psychotropic serum to perfect the existing mutagen so his mutants would be intelligent and have personalities. Hence why Mondo and Herman are fully formed individuals upon creation, whereas Slash and Pete were simpletons upon creation.

The whole ooze/mutagen/psychotropic serum thing in IDW was one of its more confusing aspects, complicating something that before now was always pretty simple. I imagine there are some hitches in it (did Hob's mutagen have the psychotropic serum in it to give him the intellect and personality? I mean, it must have), but they've been pretty consistent with how it works so far.

But I thought Lindsey said the psychotropic serum sample would only work on Slash, not Pete. Did I misunderstand something?

[DrSpengler]

I might be the one misremembering, yeah. But that was the impression I got for the three stages of mutagen.

[Duke Nukem]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

But I thought Lindsey said the psychotropic serum sample would only work on Slash, not Pete. Did I misunderstand something?

I think that was because Slash had mutagen given to him by Stockman in carefully controlled amounts, and Pete was given his by Hob, who didn't know how to do that, and could have introduced impurities as well.

[Bobby Curnow]

Spengler and Duke have it right.

And yes, it is the most confusing and (to me at least) frustrating part of our mythos.

[Cryomancer]

Originally Posted by Bobby Curnow

Spengler and Duke have it right.

And yes, it is the most confusing and (to me at least) frustrating part of our mythos.

That's kind of good though. It makes things more variable and complex, and presents the "science" as something you have to actually put some time/thought/effort into and not just something that happens in 5 minutes.

[miru]

And I’m sure Hob’s bias against human-born Mutants will come back to bite him one day. Like maybe Dreadmon starts a group of formerly-human-Mutants to oppose Hob? That would be a great turn for Dreadmon, and keep up with a "cat vs dog" element to things.

Maybe Stryacodons could be introduced as reincarnated Neutrinos?

EDIT: Someone else suggested Mondo and Herman’s personalities were due to their owners.

[corvus]

Remember mutants in this continuity come from a combination of two sources. Mutagen and the Psychotropic compound. Slash was very animal like when he didn't have the psychotropic compound, once he got it he learned to read and developed a more human personality. Mondo and Herman appeared out of nowhere, All we know is Hob made them, we don't know when or how long they actually existed. Mutants also have memories of their animal lives and that shapes them, leatherhead and hob have both indicated this.
I think it's something like Mirage/4kids/movie splinter. He developed a sort of old ninja master personality by watching his owner. Maybe Mondo was exposed to a lot of punk music and skateboard videos and Herman saw a lot of war movies, or maybe the pet-shop employees are an old army vet and a skater dude.

[Ninjinister]

In the retrospective on the series in the most recent issue, they mentioned an idea of Mondo having been owned by a hippie pet shop owner, and Herman owned by an ex-military one, and they just absorbed the persona/ideas of their shop owners like Splinter did with Yoshi's movements back in Mirage.

Not sure if that's they way they'll go in the canon itself but that's what we got so far.