South Park Discussion Thread

[Leo656]

I think Wendy beating his ass was probably the best. Although in true Cartman fashion, he learned nothing and nothing changed.

That's the thing, though; if he ever learned anything or became a better person, he'd cease to be Eric Cartman.

[neatoman]

Not really so much a punishment but the implication that he's just going to freeze himself again, after being warned by his future self, is a pretty good example of his stubborness getting to him.

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by Leo656

No, Cartman was always pretty much a worthless human being, right from the jump. If anything he's just gotten more devious.

I think Trey and Matt were trying to make a point about how some people are just born rotten and that you can tell from the beginning that they're awful and predict how their life is gonna go from there.

I mean, Cartman's mom is literally a crack whore, but he doesn't KNOW that and she goes out of her way to spoil him rotten so he has no angst in his life from that. He doesn't have a father figure, but again, his mother overcompensates and so it's not like his life is any worse off than it would be if he had two parents. He's given everything, the only strife he gets is when people pick on him for either being fat or being mean, two things he himself is 100% in control of and could change anytime he felt like. He chooses to be the way he is, because he thinks it's funny. He has a "perfect" life and everything he wants, and yet he still chooses to be an insufferable piece of sh*t for no reason outside of his own amusement.

People will tell you, "There are no Bad People, just people who turn out bad because life has given them a raw deal" or whatever, but that's horse sh*t. I knew kids in Kindergarten who just a few years later turned out to be drug dealers who were in and out of jail, and you could totally predict their entire life's track by the time they were 6. Some people are just Born Rotten and don't give a sh*t, they're bad people because they prefer to be that way.

I think ultimately, that's always been Trey and Matt's goal with Cartman, is to reinforce that. The idea that sometimes, people are just f*cking terrible and they don't need a reason. Makes perfect sense to me given their standard M.O.

Baring in mind that I don't think Matt and Trey have a consistent philosophy on much (think their changing stance on gay and transgender people or even global warming over the years) my read of Cartman is that he partly such a ****** person because of all those things.

The more Liane spoils her son the more he realises he can do what he wants, the more she overcompensates for the lack of a father figure in his life the more he regresses into a cranky child he still plays with his dolls.

You can see this in the episode with Caesar Milan. When Cartman is actually disciplined he actually starts to legitimately change until Liane reverts to her old self and enables his bad behavior.

Also we saw Cartman sincerely fall for Wendy in a non-selfish way early on and as previously mentioned in this thread we saw a future version were he had turned his life around suggesting that Cartman isn't inherently evil it's as a result of his life he's leads.

[Leo656]

I was thinking about extrapolating on the Caesar Milan episode in an earlier post but in the end I didn't really go into it because in my experience with people in Real Life, any change would have been temporary. People generally don't change their behavior so drastically, and if they do it never lasts. People always revert to type. "Nobody ever quits heroin", etc. etc. I think the point was ultimately that like anyone else, he has the potential to be a better person, but that for one reason or other he's just always going to revert to type.

I do think his mom enabling him is a factor, but only in part. He would still be a rotten person because that's what's in his heart. I mean, who is it that teaches him to be a racist and a raging anti-Semite? Literally nobody, he's that way because he feels like it, no other reason. It's not something that can be blamed on "enabling' or bad role models, it's his own personal choice. You can see it in how he insists that he's not fat, for example, or lashes out at people for giving him a hard time about it. He gets mad when people pick on him for being fat, and uses their teasing as a justification for his vicious behavior in turn, but really, he can make it ll go away anytime he feels like by simply NOT being fat, which is very easy to do. But he likes being the victim because it in turn justifies his sh*tty behavior. People who choose to be sh*tty will always find a reason, and I think that's very much of what Trey and Matt have suggested not just with Cartman, but with many other characters like Randy and others. The entire show is full of characters that are really huge pieces of sh*t for no reason other than they feel like it. And to be honest, I appreciate that because that's Real Life.
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I confess that I'm a little confused by your comment about their "changing stance" on things like transgender people. All I've ever seen them do is make fun of that. I've never spoken to them about it personally but it seems pretty clear to me how they feel about it. Whether it was Garrison back in the day or the more recent Macho man parody episode, their personal feelings on that specific topic have always seemed very clear. Unless I missed something.

I agree that their stance on some things seems to be fluid, OR if nothing else they like to play both sides of the fence sometimes for the sake of comedy. But on some topics I think they've been very consistent.

[drgon78]

If you want to talk about sh*tty people look at Kyle's dad. Even before the internet troll thing, he was a crappy person but then again he is a lawyer.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by drgon78

If you want to talk about sh*tty people look at Kyle's dad. Even before the internet troll thing, he was a crappy person but then again he is a lawyer.

[cammy85]

Ah, that makes sense about Cartman's mom. That's been bugging me for years. Even in the early episodes, she's like "Don't be difficult, Eric!!" and no consequences stem from that. She even quickly dismisses the claims about Terrance and Philip. But I was happy when she grounded him in the movie and flipped out when he, as the Coon, flipped out and attacked his friends. About damned time!!

[Storm Eagle]

Originally Posted by cammy85

Ah, that makes sense about Cartman's mom. That's been bugging me for years. Even in the early episodes, she's like "Don't be difficult, Eric!!" and no consequences stem from that.

He did stop talking after that though. What else do you think should have happened?

[Leo656]

Any parent with any backbone would've taken the belt to him at the absolute least, for most of the stuff he's done or even said. You don't act out like that if you're well aware that there's consequences.

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I was thinking about extrapolating on the Caesar Milan episode in an earlier post but in the end I didn't really go into it because in my experience with people in Real Life, any change would have been temporary. People generally don't change their behavior so drastically, and if they do it never lasts. People always revert to type. "Nobody ever quits heroin", etc. etc. I think the point was ultimately that like anyone else, he has the potential to be a better person, but that for one reason or other he's just always going to revert to type.

I do think his mom enabling him is a factor, but only in part. He would still be a rotten person because that's what's in his heart. I mean, who is it that teaches him to be a racist and a raging anti-Semite? Literally nobody, he's that way because he feels like it, no other reason. It's not something that can be blamed on "enabling' or bad role models, it's his own personal choice. You can see it in how he insists that he's not fat, for example, or lashes out at people for giving him a hard time about it. He gets mad when people pick on him for being fat, and uses their teasing as a justification for his vicious behavior in turn, but really, he can make it ll go away anytime he feels like by simply NOT being fat, which is very easy to do. But he likes being the victim because it in turn justifies his sh*tty behavior. People who choose to be sh*tty will always find a reason, and I think that's very much of what Trey and Matt have suggested not just with Cartman, but with many other characters like Randy and others. The entire show is full of characters that are really huge pieces of sh*t for no reason other than they feel like it. And to be honest, I appreciate that because that's Real Life.

Cartman is a fictional character. His capacity for change is as much as Matt and Trey want it to be. While there are a few signs that Cartman is just born evil it's much more consistently shown that Cartman is capable of change but something always happens to prevent it or trigger him back to how he was.

He is also very aware that he's fat he just doesn't like to admit it. The end of the Fat Camp episode he once again seems sincerely willing to change in this case going on a diet and exercising but because he is rejected by the group he starts comfort eating. In the aforementioned episode were the kids are tricked by people pretending to be their future selves we see Cartman's actual future self who has changed. Of course because Cartman thinks he's being duped he rejects change and stays as he is.

I confess that I'm a little confused by your comment about their "changing stance" on things like transgender people. All I've ever seen them do is make fun of that. I've never spoken to them about it personally but it seems pretty clear to me how they feel about it. Whether it was Garrison back in the day or the more recent Macho man parody episode, their personal feelings on that specific topic have always seemed very clear. Unless I missed something.

I agree that their stance on some things seems to be fluid, OR if nothing else they like to play both sides of the fence sometimes for the sake of comedy. But on some topics I think they've been very consistent.

I'm thinking specifically of the episode were Herbert Garrison transitions into a woman. Granted my impression of this could be coloured somewhat due to the fact that views on trans people are somewhat different in the UK than the UK. It 's one of the few things you guys are (marginally) less trash than us but even though that episode stops short of saying that Mrs Garrison is actually a woman it absolutely defends her right to live as one.

Contrast this to the episode were she transitions back into being a man and the message seems to be that he was wrong for ever thinking he should be a woman.

[Leo656]

Garrison is generally portrayed as being entirely delusional no matter what his pursuits, so once again, I feel like it was pretty clear what Trey and Matt were trying to say with that storyline. Like, they didn't have one of the more "sane" or even-keeled characters transition, they purposely used the guy who's constantly out of his mind. Not only because it would be funny, but because they were trying to make a point about what kind of person, in their minds and opinion, does things like that.

It was all just a gag, even the "sincere" parts. I always felt that was pretty clear. Between that, the Caitlyn Jenner portayal, and having a person with a beard and visible testicles call themselves a woman just so they could beat other women in sporting events, I have never seen any inconsistency in what Trey and Matt think of trans people. Safe to say, they've never been big fans of it.

I doubt they'd ever admit to that at loud, especially not in the Here and Now. But I don't think their position on that topic has ever moved an inch. They've shifted on some things, but they've been very consistent on that one since the beginning.

[Storm Eagle]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Any parent with any backbone would've taken the belt to him at the absolute least, for most of the stuff he's done or even said. You don't act out like that if you're well aware that there's consequences.

I get that Cartman is a brat, but that time when he tried to argue with his mother and she says "don't be difficult, Eric". He clammed right up afterwards. That's one of the few times where he has ever been obedient. So I'm not sure any punishment is needed after that. Especially corporal punishment. Anyway, there were times where he has gotten hit. Still, Cartman gonna be Cartman.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

So Cartman's mom is named after Trey's ex-fiancee. That explains it.

[Galactus]

For a while there Mr Garrison was portrayed as relatively sane (in South Park terms) post coming out of the closet and all the weirdness like his hand puppets was because he was repressing the truth about his sexuality.

I kinda got the impression Matt and Trey struggled with what to do with Garrison post coming out because he just wasn't as funny. He had his moments like being down because he hadn't been molested as a child and being mad at straight men appropriating gay culture and trying to get fired but eventually after experimenting with him some more they went full circle and made him an abusive straight guy again.

I've always got the impression the message of the episode that the character transitions into a woman was that while Matt and Trey don't buy the science behind transgender people that they support peoples right to live how they feel just don't go nuts with it just like they largely support gay rights just don't shove a hamster up your ass. While Garrison was deliberately portrayed as still looking like a man after transitioning that was largely for the benefit of the audience all the characters saw and accepted her as a woman even the ones who knew her as Herbert.

It does seem their attitudes towards trans people changed over time. It's definitely clear what they think of them now and it certainly isn't positive thoughts.

[Leo656]

Interesting points, but I still don't think much has altogether changed. I think they still argue that people can live how they want, but that they're highly skeptical of both the science and sometimes the motives behind it all, depending on the situation. I don't think that's ever not been the case.

Like I don't think they hate trans people, although maybe they do. But it's obvious even if they don't that they look at situations like boys transitioning into girls, and then suddenly winning all the medals in Girls' Track or whatever, and they go "Hmm, yeah, that's maybe offsides." And to be frank, there's a lot of people who think that, which is why a lot of girls and their parents are suing the schools where such things have happened. I'm pretty sure most of them don't have any problem in theory with trans people's existence, but that they feel like a line has been crossed and they're not happy about it.

That's the message I took from the most recent episodes of South Park in which they've dealt with that particular subject. BUT, who knows, maybe they just flat-out hate trans people. I never asked 'em so I wouldn't know. I do feel like they're not unconditionally supportive but I don't know if that goes into outright hate.

[ABrown]

The entire covid pandemic is Randy Marsh's fault. Classic.

[neatoman]

So... Were the Bat and Pangolin better than Sharon?

[Leo656]

I'm over here wondering what nasty diseases Sharon has now, after her husband f*cked a bat and a pangolin.

Unless Randy just never has sex with his wife, which for some reason I could believe.

[neatoman]

Well there is an episode about her learning the value of giving him a handjob, and an episode about how he figured out that she would give him blowjobs everytime they went to musicals... And let's not forget about the episode about the One Porno To Rule Them All. So I would say they have a lot of sex based on previous episodes.

Then again... South Park isn't known for being perfectly consistant, this episode itself hinges on the idea that Randy can still produce semen, even though he was castred in the testicle cancer episode.

[cammy85]

Sheesh!!

Spoiler:

So, were the incidents with the bat referenced in the previous season at all? I know there's been a recent episode with Mickey in it.