DC Relaunching AGAIN

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Flipping through it, the art for Three Jokers definitely looks very good. That dude's always got a lot on the ball, though, so no surprise there. "Great job doing what you're supposed to do" and all'a that.

Spoiler:

For anyone interested for whatever reason, here's everything I picked up, as posted elsewhere:

Death To The Army Of Darkness #4 and 5
Batman: Three Jokers #1, 2 and 3
Dark Nights: Death Metal #2 and 4
Death: The High Cost of Living #1, 2 and 3 (of 3)
He-Man: The Eternity War #3
He-Man and the Masters of the Multiverse #4
History of the DC Universe TPB
My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic #89 and 90
Rorschach #1
The Shadow (1986 mini-series) #1, 2, 3 and 4 (of 4)
Superman: Action Comics #1025 and 1026
Superman #24 and 25
The Man of Steel (2018 mini-series) #1-6 (of 6)
Superman Adventures #11 and 38
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles #110
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: The Last Ronin #1
Wonder Woman (1982) #295
World's Finest (1982) #279

So yeah, plenty of reading to do. I have Chinese food right now, though, so that's gonna have to wait a while.

Love it. But what the fvck are you doing, giving IDW's main TMNT series money?

Also, Scott Snyder on Justice League Metal or whatever is really far removed from Scott Snyder's Batman of the New 52. I miss that.

[Leo656]

I'm just a nice guy. Also the only issue they had in stock.

[Autbot_Benz]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Flipping through it, the art for Three Jokers definitely looks very good. That dude's always got a lot on the ball, though, so no surprise there. "Great job doing what you're supposed to do" and all'a that.

For anyone interested for whatever reason, here's everything I picked up, as posted elsewhere:

Death To The Army Of Darkness #4 and 5
Batman: Three Jokers #1, 2 and 3
Dark Nights: Death Metal #2 and 4
Death: The High Cost of Living #1, 2 and 3 (of 3)
He-Man: The Eternity War #3
He-Man and the Masters of the Multiverse #4
History of the DC Universe TPB
My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic #89 and 90
Rorschach #1
The Shadow (1986 mini-series) #1, 2, 3 and 4 (of 4)
Superman: Action Comics #1025 and 1026
Superman #24 and 25
The Man of Steel (2018 mini-series) #1-6 (of 6)
Superman Adventures #11 and 38
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles #110
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: The Last Ronin #1
Wonder Woman (1982) #295
World's Finest (1982) #279

So yeah, plenty of reading to do. I have Chinese food right now, though, so that's gonna have to wait a while.

I got BTTF/Transformers #1
Justice League Dark #27(Variant Cover)
Hellblazer John Constantine #11(Second to last issue since DC Canned it)
Thor #8
soon to be shipped
Kind of surprised Dynamite comics hasn't done an Ash VS Evil Dead comic since they seem to have the whole Evil Dead license

[Leo656]

So I read all three issues of "Three Jokers", and it altogether wasn't as bad as it seemed it might be, but I still have mixed feelings about it. And I'm probably not gonna accept it as "canon", although parts of it were definitely intriguing and it picked up some steam near the end.

As has been oft-stated, the art is absolutely beautiful, so no problems there. Man, Batgirl is so hawt. And it was easy enough to tell the three titular Jokers apart most of the time, so that was good.

The story itself kinda sucks, though, although I can't really decide if that's because it was built up too much for too long OR if the entire premise just doesn't work, a combination of those things, or what. Everything about the Joe Chill storyline was really intriguing, but also felt like it came out of left field. I did like that stuff, though.

Past that, though, I'm still just not sold on this idea that it's always been multiple guys acting as "The Joker" and playing a long con. Or HAS it always been three, or was it really just one until recently? They seem to kind of go back and forth on it, like even the editors weren't sure how far to go into it. They imply that the two "imposters" were the only successful "experiments" in trying to create a copycat Joker, BUT they also seem to have been around for a fairly long while, so if that's true, why were they successful early on and yet all the more recent experiments failed? They also seemed afraid to commit to which one was "the real Joker"; the Criminal being so much older-looking implies that he was the original, but The Comedian at times also seems to be implied as "the real one", especially with the ending. They try to handwave it all away in the end by literally saying "None of that matters", but let's be honest, that's nonsense.

That's maybe the biggest problem with it, is that in the end it raises a LOT more questions than it answers. And sure, that's par for the course with Joker stories, but at the same time, the book was promoted, marketed and sold as being the answer to some mystery (one that never even existed until DC themselves created it out of thin air to sell more books), and in the end, nothing of substance is resolved other than Bruce putting his Joe Chill demon to rest (which could just as well have been done in another book as its own story). We don't know who the "real" Joker was, we don't know his name, we don't know how or when or why the Jokers' master plan started in the first place or how long this game's been going on... if we really wanna speak it plain, the book didn't deliver on ANYTHING it more or less promised, or at least teased that it was going to resolve. And after ALL of that build-up over the last few YEARS... I'm sorry, it feels like a cheat. "It's a Joker story, of course nothing's resolved" isn't good enough after All That. The entire "Three Jokers" premise was half-baked in its conception and the execution didn't do much to merit its existence. It's not a "bad" book necessarily, but it's literally all build-up and almost no follow-through. Two of the Jokers die and we don't know any more about them - OR the surviving one - than we did beforehand. It's all smoke and mirrors. For over twenty bucks, that feels pretty much like a con-job. There's over-hype, and then there's plain misdirection. NOTHING that was presented was resolved except for the Joe Chill stuff, and again, that felt like it came out of a completely different story altogether. And the mini-series wasn't called "Batman Makes Nice With Joe Chill", now was it?

Even the stuff with Jason was just a red herring in the end, apparently; it's like one minute, "We wanted to turn the 'failed' Robin into The Joker to screw with Batman", and then it's "Nah, that was just another twist, it was REALLY about Joe Chill all along... OR WAS IT?!" And like any wrestling fan will tell you, adding swerves on top of swerves doesn't make your story any better, it just makes it more convoluted. And in the end, all the set-up with Jason and Barbara is ALSO just set-up for future writers to touch upon if they feel like... or not. I really hope they don't, frankly, as many jokes have already been made about Babs being the town Bat-cycle, but aside from that it's just One More Thing that this book spent time on and didn't really resolve in any satisfying way.

Not sure where I stand on the "Killing Joke" retcon at the end, and what really happened to The Comedian's wife and kid. On the one hand, I can kinda see that. On the other hand, if he didn't think his wife had died, maaaaybe he never would've fully snapped and become the Joker in the first place, right? It's implied here that he was a bigger asshole than we'd seen beforehand (in Killing Joke he was more just a loser than an abuser, but then we were seeing it from his point of view and he's an unreliable narrator), but as retcons go, it's not the worst I've ever seen. Retcons always just kinda rub me wrong as a general rule, in that there's a type of arrogant narcissism to them - "I'm gonna 'fix' what this other writer did wrong" is how they always come off, to me, and that just can't be helped - but again, this one wasn't TOO bad.

On the flip side, Batman's reveal at the end that he ALWAYS knew who the Joker really was seems a bit more suspect, and once again, throws a TON of established stories into question. We've seen Bruce Wayne's thought balloons a THOUSAND times over the years, including in "The Killing Joke" itself - he did NOT ever know who The Joker really was and he's admitted that a thousand times. Was he lying to HIMSELF in all those thought balloons where he agonized over who Joker might be, what might have caused him to be like this, etc. etc.? When he asked the Mobius Chair, there sure seemed to be some sort of urgency in his voice, and that's the event that kicked off this whole ordeal in the first place. It just feels like such a blatant retcon/cheat.

And that ending really kinda sums up the entire series. "Batman always knew the Joker's true identity. And the "Comedian" from "The Killing Joke" was the real Joker (apparently). And that guy always knew Bruce Wayne was Batman. Except MAYBE not! Maybe none of this is true because all these plot twists and retcons involves everyone being an unreliable narrator, and that's okay, too, because Joker's just an idea and the personification of chaos and if you give him a name it erases what he stands for and blah blah more Freshman Psych babble blah blah blah this book hates answering questions but loves presenting more of them."

It really sounds like I'm trashing it, but really I'm just picking apart how it simply fails to deliver on anything it promised. It's very pretty and it has some neat ideas, but it doesn't follow through on ANYTHING it more or less promised that it would, and after three years of build-up and $7 an issue, adding MORE mysteries and barely addressing the ones they'd already set up in the first place just feels incredibly manipulative. "It's a Joker story; you wanted answers?" just feels like twisting the knife.

I can see some people really digging it. For me, it was just all build and no payoff. The Joe Chill stuff was the only parts that really resonated with me, and that could EASILY have been a single issue story done in just about any other setting, it didn't really need to be part of this one. After all the hype, this was just a letdown in a lot of ways, and I wish I could say that it was just because it was over-hyped, but that's not really it. It WAS over-hyped, but it also felt like they didn't write a good story because they knew they didn't have to; they KNEW they could just spout off some meandering "Joker = Chaos" babble and get out the back door without having to explain a single damn thing.

At the very least, it was very, very well-drawn. And it had a couple of interesting ideas. But that's really all I can say about it. It probably sounds like I hated it, but the truth is there's just a lot more negative to say than positive. It's not necessarily that bad in a vacuum, it's just... it very much feels like filler. And it was framed as being this Big Iconic Thing, and it simply isn't that. It falls very short of that.

I've read way worse... but also way better. Frankly, I'm not sure they even needed to bother doing this.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Leo656

So I read all three issues of "Three Jokers", and it altogether wasn't as bad as it seemed it might be, but I still have mixed feelings about it. And I'm probably not gonna accept it as "canon", although parts of it were definitely intriguing and it picked up some steam near the end.

Spoiler:

As has been oft-stated, the art is absolutely beautiful, so no problems there. Man, Batgirl is so hawt. And it was easy enough to tell the three titular Jokers apart most of the time, so that was good.

The story itself kinda sucks, though, although I can't really decide if that's because it was built up too much for too long OR if the entire premise just doesn't work, a combination of those things, or what. Everything about the Joe Chill storyline was really intriguing, but also felt like it came out of left field. I did like that stuff, though.

Past that, though, I'm still just not sold on this idea that it's always been multiple guys acting as "The Joker" and playing a long con. Or HAS it always been three, or was it really just one until recently? They seem to kind of go back and forth on it, like even the editors weren't sure how far to go into it. They imply that the two "imposters" were the only successful "experiments" in trying to create a copycat Joker, BUT they also seem to have been around for a fairly long while, so if that's true, why were they successful early on and yet all the more recent experiments failed? They also seemed afraid to commit to which one was "the real Joker"; the Criminal being so much older-looking implies that he was the original, but The Comedian at times also seems to be implied as "the real one", especially with the ending. They try to handwave it all away in the end by literally saying "None of that matters", but let's be honest, that's nonsense.

That's maybe the biggest problem with it, is that in the end it raises a LOT more questions than it answers. And sure, that's par for the course with Joker stories, but at the same time, the book was promoted, marketed and sold as being the answer to some mystery (one that never even existed until DC themselves created it out of thin air to sell more books), and in the end, nothing of substance is resolved other than Bruce putting his Joe Chill demon to rest (which could just as well have been done in another book as its own story). We don't know who the "real" Joker was, we don't know his name, we don't know how or when or why the Jokers' master plan started in the first place or how long this game's been going on... if we really wanna speak it plain, the book didn't deliver on ANYTHING it more or less promised, or at least teased that it was going to resolve. And after ALL of that build-up over the last few YEARS... I'm sorry, it feels like a cheat. "It's a Joker story, of course nothing's resolved" isn't good enough after All That. The entire "Three Jokers" premise was half-baked in its conception and the execution didn't do much to merit its existence. It's not a "bad" book necessarily, but it's literally all build-up and almost no follow-through. Two of the Jokers die and we don't know any more about them - OR the surviving one - than we did beforehand. It's all smoke and mirrors. For over twenty bucks, that feels pretty much like a con-job. There's over-hype, and then there's plain misdirection. NOTHING that was presented was resolved except for the Joe Chill stuff, and again, that felt like it came out of a completely different story altogether. And the mini-series wasn't called "Batman Makes Nice With Joe Chill", now was it?

Even the stuff with Jason was just a red herring in the end, apparently; it's like one minute, "We wanted to turn the 'failed' Robin into The Joker to screw with Batman", and then it's "Nah, that was just another twist, it was REALLY about Joe Chill all along... OR WAS IT?!" And like any wrestling fan will tell you, adding swerves on top of swerves doesn't make your story any better, it just makes it more convoluted. And in the end, all the set-up with Jason and Barbara is ALSO just set-up for future writers to touch upon if they feel like... or not. I really hope they don't, frankly, as many jokes have already been made about Babs being the town Bat-cycle, but aside from that it's just One More Thing that this book spent time on and didn't really resolve in any satisfying way.

Not sure where I stand on the "Killing Joke" retcon at the end, and what really happened to The Comedian's wife and kid. On the one hand, I can kinda see that. On the other hand, if he didn't think his wife had died, maaaaybe he never would've fully snapped and become the Joker in the first place, right? It's implied here that he was a bigger asshole than we'd seen beforehand (in Killing Joke he was more just a loser than an abuser, but then we were seeing it from his point of view and he's an unreliable narrator), but as retcons go, it's not the worst I've ever seen. Retcons always just kinda rub me wrong as a general rule, in that there's a type of arrogant narcissism to them - "I'm gonna 'fix' what this other writer did wrong" is how they always come off, to me, and that just can't be helped - but again, this one wasn't TOO bad.

On the flip side, Batman's reveal at the end that he ALWAYS knew who the Joker really was seems a bit more suspect, and once again, throws a TON of established stories into question. We've seen Bruce Wayne's thought balloons a THOUSAND times over the years, including in "The Killing Joke" itself - he did NOT ever know who The Joker really was and he's admitted that a thousand times. Was he lying to HIMSELF in all those thought balloons where he agonized over who Joker might be, what might have caused him to be like this, etc. etc.? When he asked the Mobius Chair, there sure seemed to be some sort of urgency in his voice, and that's the event that kicked off this whole ordeal in the first place. It just feels like such a blatant retcon/cheat.

And that ending really kinda sums up the entire series. "Batman always knew the Joker's true identity. And the "Comedian" from "The Killing Joke" was the real Joker (apparently). And that guy always knew Bruce Wayne was Batman. Except MAYBE not! Maybe none of this is true because all these plot twists and retcons involves everyone being an unreliable narrator, and that's okay, too, because Joker's just an idea and the personification of chaos and if you give him a name it erases what he stands for and blah blah more Freshman Psych babble blah blah blah this book hates answering questions but loves presenting more of them."

It really sounds like I'm trashing it, but really I'm just picking apart how it simply fails to deliver on anything it promised. It's very pretty and it has some neat ideas, but it doesn't follow through on ANYTHING it more or less promised that it would, and after three years of build-up and $7 an issue, adding MORE mysteries and barely addressing the ones they'd already set up in the first place just feels incredibly manipulative. "It's a Joker story; you wanted answers?" just feels like twisting the knife.

I can see some people really digging it. For me, it was just all build and no payoff. The Joe Chill stuff was the only parts that really resonated with me, and that could EASILY have been a single issue story done in just about any other setting, it didn't really need to be part of this one. After all the hype, this was just a letdown in a lot of ways, and I wish I could say that it was just because it was over-hyped, but that's not really it. It WAS over-hyped, but it also felt like they didn't write a good story because they knew they didn't have to; they KNEW they could just spout off some meandering "Joker = Chaos" babble and get out the back door without having to explain a single damn thing.

At the very least, it was very, very well-drawn. And it had a couple of interesting ideas. But that's really all I can say about it. It probably sounds like I hated it, but the truth is there's just a lot more negative to say than positive. It's not necessarily that bad in a vacuum, it's just... it very much feels like filler. And it was framed as being this Big Iconic Thing, and it simply isn't that. It falls very short of that.

I've read way worse... but also way better. Frankly, I'm not sure they even needed to bother doing this.

Those were my thoughts as well, practically to a tee.

• The Joe Chill stuff was surprisingly good.
• The whole premise of Three Jokers was pretty much pointless, except to have some redudant Jokers for killing.
• The book introduces questions and plot points that were never a thing, and then drops them.
• And there's no character development; no lasting consequences. I have never seen a book swerve so hard so quickly to status quo.
• And bull$hit Batman always knew who the Joker was.

If Fabok hadn't been on art, we'd all be feeling a lot harsher towards this miniseries.

[Leo656]

Absolutely. The art rescues but does not redeem it. It's one of the best-drawn Batman books I've ever seen, for sure. But "great art and weak stories" has always been more of a Marvel thing than a DC thing, so whenever DC puts out a book that tries to skate by on every page being suitable for framing but nothing else of substance, it's very frustrating.

I don't feel dumber for having read it or anything, but this is definitely not one of Geoff Johns's better attempts. He's generally got much more on the ball than this. You can tell it's one'a his because it has retcons of various degrees of unimportance while also leaning on popular, iconic stories to try and make the story seem more important than it is. But the spark that was in his JSA and Flash and Teen Titans and Green Lantern stuff simply isn't here. Geoff usually does lean more into the shinier, brighter, more "hopeful" characters; maybe he just doesn't "get" Batman stuff? Wouldn't be the first time an otherwise-decent writer fell short on a character they didn't fully grasp. Mark Waid, for example, is one of the best ever on Flash, but his Superman stuff is mixed-to-awful. "Birthright" was plain terrible, while "Return Of Barry Allen" circa 1993 belongs in a museum. It happens.

I'unno. It wasn't AS dumb as it was described, but it definitely, definitely wasn't necessary. And the numerous bait-and-switch tactics just made it worse. "None of it even matters because Joker Is Chaos" was just a stupid, stupid way to try and handwave everything away. I mean, way to create a fake mystery, tease people with it for years, and then cheat people out of any sort of resolution, DC. YOU started this, dammit.

At least it looked great. For some, that and the Killing Joke references will be enough. For me, I don't feel "ripped off" exactly but there wasn't $20+ worth of good story here.

[AquaParade]

I still think the concept of there having been multiple Jokers is fascinating, but they did squat with it at the end of the day.
They took us back to square one by the end, and the playful comment by the remaining Joker, meant to make you question who was really the original Joker was a laughable attempt to maintain some sense of intrigue.

I don't think Geoff Johns ever had a good explanation for this story, which is why we ended up down the street with Joe Chill, which felt like it came out of nowhere, because it did. Good thing Geoff Johns had this other Joe Chill Batman story in his back pocket, I guess? It was an interesting take on a Batman & Joe Chill story, but felt shoehorned in here.

This story was better before it existed. I wondered for years what Batman learned of the Joker's identity in "Darkseid War", and I was even more interested when I heard the premise for this book.

[Leo656]

Aaaaaaand turns out he "learned" nothing of consequence anyway because he supposedly always knew who the Joker was from literally the beginning. Aaaaaaarrrrrrghh! "I always knew. I just pretended not to know, even in my own thought balloons and internal monologue, for years and years. But I literally always knew, since forever." Screw you, that doesn't work from so many different ways I'm not even gonna dignify it by picking it apart. "I always knew his real name." Uh huh. Sure.

And of course, after dangling it in front of us for so long, we get no bones at all, and then scolded for caring about that at all. "It was never important." Fair enough, DC, but... you kinda tricked us into thinking that it WAS important or you never would've brought it up in the first place!

The whole thing feels like a set-up to a "joke" with no punchline. And perhaps that's fitting.

"Knock-knock!"
"Who's there?"
"Nobody."
"..........Nobody who?"
"No, you don't get it. There's literally nobody there."
"......Then why did you even say 'knock-knock'...?"
"Ah, I'unno, just bored I guess."

That's basically the entire build-up and execution of "Three Jokers". A fake mystery with no resolution, and a story where very little of substance was gained or lost.
------------------

I got through a few more books, too. The "Dark Nights: Death Metal" stuff was interesting, but I am COMPLETELY lost on that whole thing as I never read any of the "Dark Nights: Metal" stuff, either, and of course I only have #2 and 4 of this one and none of the many tie-in books. So I'm completely lost but decided to check it out for fun, and it was intriguing enough to make me want to know more. The one thing I took away from it was that it's complete lunacy. But I don't necessarily say that in a bad way.

On the topic of more random issues lacking context, I also read the two He-Man books I picked up. "He-Man: The Eternity War" #3 was pretty good, although it seems oddly titled in that He-Man doesn't appear on a single page and this issue, at least, was 100% about She-Ra. I'm still VERY out of the loop on the DC He-Man canon and trying to find my way back little by little, but as far as I can tell this is part of DC's new She-Ra origin story. I do know that DC went completely their own way with the He-Man mythos, taking little bits of each version and making it its own new thing, to a very mixed reaction. Catra and Scorpia react like they're meeting She-Ra for the first time, here, so I'm guessing this was very early on in DC She-Ra's existence. It's quite a bit different from any of the versions of the story I'm used to, specifically as it's set in a timeline after which Teela has "died" and been reborn as the new Sorceress of Grayskull, and everyone referencing how Adora was known as "Despara" when she worked for Hordak, something that I know Mattel did as well but as far as I know is a relatively new addition to the He-Man and She-Ra canon. I'm pretty annoyed that the store was otherwise clean out of He-Man books; I'm a HUGE fan of the franchise but DC started putting out their line of books right as I was getting out of comics, so I missed pretty much all of it and now there's a lot to catch up on.

"He-Man and the Masters of the Multiverse" #4 was a bit of an easier read, as I do have issue #1 of that series so I at least know the basic set-up. Short version: It's the MOTU version of "Crisis On Infinite Earths", as an evil "Anti-He-Man" goes through every alternate universe, killing each one's He-Man and absorbing their power, and it's up to the surviving He-Man variants and a good alternate universe-version of Keldor (who hasn't turned into Skeletor... yet) to stop the madness and save everything. The first issue was awesome, and even though I'm missing #2 and 3 I could still follow this one for the most part, at least in the broad sense. We apparently lost a few more He-Mans along the way between issue #1 and here, and so that left Keldor and Dolph Lundgren He-Man from the 1987 movie (who I am SO thrilled to see in something like this) to try and team up with the He-Man of the Filmation cartoon series in this issue. The whole series is mostly fanservice stuff but in the best possible way, and it works great with all the different versions of the He-Man canon there are, now. At the end of this issue, the story takes us to "Eternia Prime", aka "The Very First Eternia" in the entire Multiverse, which appears to be the "savage" Eternia of the very first toys and mini-comics, before the Prince Adam stuff crept in. I really gotta get the rest of these now that it's all over with and all six issues are out.

The best thing I read all night was "Death: The High Cost of Living". It's one of those books I always meant to check out but just never got around to for whatever reason, mostly because I just never came across it and never bothered to go looking for it. Today it just kinda fell into my lap at the store and it was cheap, so I picked it up and I'm really glad I did. I confess that I've only seen a very small number of Gaiman's Sandman comics, so all of what I knew about the book and the character of Death came from old issues of Wizard magazine. But this was really good. I think a few of the secondary characters may have made more sense to me if I had read more Sandman, but as a self-contained story it still works really well. Definitely check this one out, if you haven't. I don't wanna say too much about it, because I think it speaks well enough for itself, but it was for sure the best thing I read today, easily.

And now I'm tired so I'm gonna have to get back to it tomorrow.

[Galactus]

I feel the same about The 3 Jokers now as I have throughout it's run; That it's very well written and illustrated story so it's hard to knock it but a lot of what it means in regards to how it fits into the the DCU leaves me shaking my head. If this was strictly an Elseworlds book it would be fine but it's quasi-canon status means that given it's positive reception it's almost a certainty writers wont be able to resist taking elements from this and folding them into canon proper.

On a positive note I really liked...

Spoiler:

the Joe Chill stuff. I rolled my eyes when the Joker kidnapped him and despaired at what big twist Johns was going to make with him but thankfully kept the origin that he was just a down on his luck criminal that happened to be around the Theater as the Waynes were there (I wouldn't have minded if they'd kept the Moxon stuff and it could still work) but thankfully no fanboy kewl stuff that he was a Joker too

As for the rest...

Spoiler:

again it's all well told but the idea that Bruce has known all along who The Joker is contradicts pretty much every Joker story that's ever been told not least of which The Killing Joke which this is supposed to be the spiritual sequel to. (Although you could argue that he's been putting an act of not knowing even in front of Alfred) also if he's known all along why did he ask the Moebius chair his name? Also the idea that he was able to figure out the Joker's true identity a week after they met and yet still couldn't tell there were multiple ones is stupid. I actually quite like the reason Bruce kept his identity secret but if he knew the Joker's real name since the beginning that that family would be The Criminal's, right? Except it clearly is The Comedians so does he know all their identities?

Also since this is supposed to explain the difference in the character;s personality over the decades the strange thing is that the Joker that crippled Babs is clearly the same vintage as the one that killed Jason and yet here they are presented as different.

I dunno. I did enjoy this but I have a feeling it's going to end up as more trouble than it is worth.

[Leo656]

I feel like it's one of those things that Geoff Johns will reference in his stories, and other writers will ignore or even poke playful fun at within their own stories. But I doubt it'll stick as far as being "hard canon".

Johns is kinda turning into another Grant Morrison, where it's simply much easier to pretend that EVERY DC story they've ever written takes place within its own self-contained, separate-but-parallel "DC universe". Both guys are so in love with their own ideas that despite their supposed reverence for "canon", their stories become a real pain in the ass to try and reconcile with other writers' stuff because of all the liberties they take which other writers generally won't ever touch again.

....Whereas guys like Dan Jurgens manage to repeatedly make lasting contributions to the mainline canon WITHOUT ever going totally into business for themselves. BUT, that's none of MY business... ((smugly sips tea))

[Galactus]

I'm not sure the comparisons to Grant Morrison is the best thing to illustrate your point when a lot of Morrison's contributions have stuck they even brought back jeans n' t-shirt Superman.

I get your wider point but I have a suspicion given how gaga everyone seems to have gone for this I'd bet money that at least some of this ends up being referenced in the main canon.

[Leo656]

Eh, it sold a lot of copies but I've seen way more "meh"-to-negative reviews than overwhelmingly positive ones. I guess it depends on who you pay attention to.

Frankly, anyone who's "gaga" over this book is way too easily amused because it simply ain't that good.
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And I often wonder how much of Grant Morrison's stuff would "stick" if they didn't keep going back to him specifically to write a bunch of their books in general. It's just suspicious how little of his stuff is ever touched upon again by other writers most of the time. Sometimes the more obscure stuff, like Super Young Team in the aftermath of Final Crisis; THAT was supposed to be a whole big thing, and the second that event was over everybody was like "Yeah, no, we've all had about enough'a THAT." That was awesome.

But it also happens with the more-hyped stuff, where he gets free reign to introduce a bunch of characters or concepts but then he's the only one who really messes with them a lot of the time. I mean they pretty much made him "captain of the ship" by giving him The Multiversity to write a few years ago, and letting him pretty much design their entire Multiverse. So of course a lot of the overall DCU depends on stuff that he's written. But it clashes SO heavily with the stuff other writers do that it barely feels consistent. A good example of what I mean would be when there was the build to "Final Crisis", and a lot of time was spent promoting "Countdown" as well as "Death of the New Gods", and then Grant publicly goes "Nah, f*ck those books, only my stuff counts." Now, "Countdown" was pretty much garbage, but I actually thought "Death of the New Gods" was much more in line with the mythos as had been presented in DC for years and years, compared to what Grant ended up doing. But Grant's the bigger name and more of a "superstar", so that whole series just got tossed aside as irrelevant literally AS it was hitting the shelves, and then "Final Crisis" comes out and gets what could very generously be called a "mixed reaction" anyway. It just felt like the most arrogant, narcissistic bullsh*t. And I like "Final Crisis" way more than most people do. That whole scenario was just a really crystal clear example of his tendency to be all, "F*ck those guys, only my stories count because I'm Grant Morrison, dammit!"

And sometimes Geoff Johns gets like that, too. And it'd be less annoying if every single thing they wrote was better than the Stuff Other Guys Wrote, but that's pretty much 50/50. Plus, it's pretty much confirmed by this point that they're a couple of narcissists. And that explains, like, SO much.

I like their work, generally. But so much of it absolutely REEKS of ego and self-importance.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Johns is kinda turning into another Grant Morrison

Never say that. Ever, ever again.

[Leo656]

They both get high on their own farts. Let's not pretend otherwise.

Which one is the better writer will be debated until the cows come home. But the one thing they both have in common is, their all-time favorite writer is the guy they see in the mirror every day.

The rumor that they BOTH spend hours before bed every night pressing pages of the "Watchmen" script against their naked skin hoping to absorb the power of Alan Moore so as to one day become him remain unconfirmed. BUT, I can absolutely believe it. Especially Grant.

[ZariusTwo]

[ZariusTwo]

2021 heralds DC's latest approach...omniversal storytelling. Fancier way of saying they're adhering to "Hypertime rules". Continuity will be thin and greater emphasis will be put on character and story regardless if it's cohesive. Greater creative freedom, and less restraint from editorial.

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/dc-c...-future-state/

[Autbot_Benz]

Whose ready for a non-binary Flash in Future State?


DC Comics recently announced its "Future State" event, which will take a bold look at where the future of the DC Universe, its heroes and villains are headed. Now we have a new character reveal from DC Future State: The Flash, who will be "Jess Chambers" also known as "Kid Quick," who will be a non-binary, genderfluid character, that will use they/them pronouns. According to Screen Rant's exclusive report, Jess Chambers will be introduced as Kid Quick of Earth-11's Teen Justice team, in DC's Very Merry Multiverse, by Ivan Cohen and Eleonora Carlini. Chambers will then inherit The Flash mantle in Future State: Justice League.

https://comicbook.com/comics/news/th...jess-chambers/

[ZariusTwo]

Comes from an alternate Earth, and becomes Flash in a timeline that won't happen.

Nothing headline, DC be playing it safe

[MikeandRaph87]

So this Nakano guy injured by Joker is taking on the mayor hat to remove vigilantism from Gotham. How many times has this happened now? Is this the fourth round? First and most notable there was Hamilton Hill and at least two others. Is there any chance he is not this new villain The Mirror?

[ZariusTwo]

Mark Waid is writing a Superman story for the Death Metal tie-ins, and Gail Simone is back too