Should the Franchise Be Going In the Opposite Direction?

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

edit: And they did surprise us by actually airing that Batman vs TMNT movie, with surprisingly minimal clean up if any. Me thinks Nick might not mind being just a little daring(?) but doesn't want to piss off the parents and censors.

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I think there may be some truth to this. It would be interesting to hear their thought process behind Batman Vs TMNT. Obviously the exposure to Batman fans is good for the brand, but they had to agree to that level of violence and that wasn't an accident.

I think you are right that they could be tiptoeing into slightly more mature territory after seeing the diminishing returns that aiming extremely low and wide with "Rise..." and "Out of the Shadows" brought them. At this point, even maintaining the franchise as something strictly for children may be looking like a risk. I mean, where do they go next, after the "failure" of "Rise..." and the recent movie but up? Hopefully this is a "do or die" moment for them. Take a risk and reap the rewards.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by PizzaPower1985

You sound like a man after my own heart. I take it you're a big DC and or Marvel guy/comics reader. If you have as much love and respect for the Big 2 and their history as I do, we should probably get together and go bowling or something, LoL. I've honestly not read modern Marvel or DC consistently since the early 2000s with few exceptions (I'm more of a golden/bronze age/immediate post crisis 90's reader) but I agree with everything you say here since I forgot about DC's tendency to skew darker, especially these days.

Marvel of decades ago, let's say hypothetically, they bought TMNT directly from Eastman/Laird in like 1986, I think they COULD HAVE done wonders with the franchise. These days, probably not. DC, if they bought it tomorrow, might end up treating TMNT the way Image did. I'd be happy with TMNT being given the same tone that Swamp Thing had in the 70's, 80's and 90's. And Vertigo would be the perfect imprint. So yeah, can it be done? Sure. But as you say, it's a pipedream full of wishful thinking at this point.

I agree with a lot of this. TMNT under Marvel circa 1988 or so might have been very, very interesting. But I don't think their current model would be a great fit. We've seen how they treat things they can't make huge movie money on, like Fantastic 4 and so on. And they even treated X-Man rather shabbily in print and video games until they got the movie rights back in-house. They're too tied into their film division and TMNT has only worked as a movie One Time so far (I'll be generous and say that "Secret of the Ooze" kinda worked as well), so in 2020, I'd want Disney/Marvel to stay far, far away from TMNT. Too many things could go wrong even though they could also go right, but the risk of failure would be very high and the repercussions disastrous.

As for me, always a DC hardcore but "casual at best" for Marvel. They've had a ton of great video games, though; between that, trading cards, the old Fox cartoons from the 90s, some pre-Clone Spider-Man and the occasional trade paperback, that's the limit of my Marvel "expertise". I've probably got about 9,000 or so DC comics but I've only been checking in from afar now and then ever since the New 52 disaster.

[PizzaPower1985]

Yeah, for me, as far as superheroes and comics go, the ones I grew up on were the ones that had cartoons in the 90's. Bats and Supes are my big ones @ DC. My Marvel guys are The X-men, Spidey and Daredevil but I've read and own many stories by most of the DC/Marvel stable with the exception of Thor/Black Panther/Wonder Woman and Hawkman. I've got a soft spot for anything written by Denny O'neil, Roger Stern, Len Wein, Paul Dini and I love John Byrne's 80s and early 90s work. I adored Dini's 'Tec run but simultaneously disliked Morrison's Batman. Alan Moore is prob. my comics god too.

But yeah, Marvel did a RoboCop cartoon in 1988 that was pretty damn good for being an excuse to sell toys based on a violent 80's action movie. That toon got turned into a failed X-men pilot in 1989 that I also like. I think Marvel could have done great things with our boys in green BACK THEN. Today? Well, you've already said it.

[Leo656]

Yeah, we should definitely grab that beer.

My personal "Comics Creators Mount Rushmore" would need like 25 people on it, but those you named are some of the all-time greats. O'Neil understood the Batman character like nobody else before or since. Roger Stern's "Death and Life of Superman" prose novel was absolutely fantastic (even though the ending deviated from the comics just a little bit). Moore is on an altogether different level than almost everyone else. Byrne's DC stuff in '86-'88 is still some of my favorite ever, especially of course his Superman. The "Man of Steel" mini is probably the only Superman origin anyone ever needs.

I personally loved a lot of Morrison's Batman (although it reads better in big chunks, month-by-month it was very confusing), and I'd probably go so far as to literally bend the knee for Dan Jurgens as well. But otherwise I pretty much feel the same.

[PizzaPower1985]

Jurgens definitely was a gift to Superman there for a while in the 90's. I loved the Death and Return Saga (and conversely didn't really care for Knightfall once Bruce's back was broken -- Part 1 had some great moments tho).

It was Batman 89' and TMNT 1990 that cemented my destiny as superhero nerd/comics geek, tho I fell out of comics/superheroes by middle school, I rediscovered it in my 20's and haven't looked back. Now, 34 and a proud owner of 312 trades, a collection of figures, videogames and a lot of superhero movies.

It is specifically the 1990 TMNT that ruined me I guess. I mean that led me to Mirage and that led me to 2K3 and that led me to IDW. I can't figure out why these other modern incarnations are even accepted. I mean a lot of us started with Murakami/Wolf... once you've had the 1990 movie and 2K3 it just seems like it should go up from there. Not down. Alas, Mr. Laird has left the building, I guess.

[Leo656]

Yeah, the 1990 film hit all the right notes for me at that point in my life, and anything less than that felt like a huge step backwards ever since. For a brief moment there in the early-90s it felt like the brand might be willing to grow with its audience, but instead all anyone wants to do is keep dragging things back to 1988, along with only being interested in pleasing an audience that's mostly 6 and 7 years old.

Around 1991, TMNT could legitimately make the case for being an "all-ages" property, because between all the different cartoons, comics, prose novellas and video games, you were bound to connect with SOMEthing no matter how old you were or how long you'd been a fan of the property. Now, it's not only "just for kids", but when older fans ask for more content aimed at them, or take issue with any of what presently exists and dare to say so out loud, they are openly told to get lost and f*ck off. "We don't want or need you as fans, anyway." Which is like... WHAT?

So, so many steps backwards since 1991-ish. Those were the good ol' days. Truly "Something for everyone", not "Like what we give you or cram it."

[MsMarvelDuckie]

As a Marvel fan, I just want to chime in and say that yes, they COULD do TMNT justice even now, though it would 1) be a tough sell, and 2) it would have to be done by the right PEOPLE. Strazynski, if he is/was still with them, would be my prime candidate, since he not only wrote some of the deepest and DARKEST Spidey stories I've ever read, but he also worked on Babylon 5 AND has at least one horror novel under his belt (that I know of)! So I know he could pull it off. As a second, Peter David might be able to do it, provided someone can rein in his quirky sense of humor, but he's both good, and knows angst and existential crisis, given his long tenure on Hulk. Heck, a tag team of those two would be my dream team for a Marvel-done TMNT movie script.

My only stipulation would be to keep Slott and Quesada FAAAR away. Slott may have some cool ideas at times, but he has been prone to run them to death or just oversell them, imo. Not sure of any other current talent who would be good, but I would happily pull Bendis back as well, for such a project. (Can't believe he ever jumped to the opposition in the first place. Yeesh....)

[Leo656]

If they tried to actually make TMNT part of the "Marvel Universe" it would be bad no matter who was writing it. I just don't think they'd belong in a "super-hero universe" and Marvel has a habit of doing that with everything they acquire.

Like in theory, sure, guys like David might write a good TMNT book IF it wasn't a case where they would be teaming up with Wolverine every few weeks. But there's really no evidence to support that theory would be reality. Their track record says that would be the rule and not the exception. Everything from New Universe to Squadron Supreme says that they'd probably fold a TMNT book into the Marvel Universe and have them crossing over with everyone else the minute sales slipped. And that just wouldn't work. It would be bad for the TMNT brand even if it sold a ton of copies. They shouldn't be in "regular" super-hero stories, it totally dilutes who they are.

I don't think it has anything to do with who'd be writing it or which brand anyone is a fan of. Both publishers operate very differently; DC has a longstanding track record of being able to print books that don't fit their super-hero line while Marvel pretty much can't or won't do that.

I wouldn't want to see the Turtles having recurring adventures with Spider-Man any more than I'd want them to team up with the Teen Titans every few weeks. Thus, I'd have to lean towards the publisher that has actually proven that they don't HAVE to do things like that, or at least has historically been much better about resisting the temptation.
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Also, Bendis is not good. I'm baffled that guy gets work. I'm convinced he's never heard two human beings have a conversation before, his dialog is just... well, it's something.

[PizzaPower1985]

No. No. No. No. Modern mainstream comics writers have TOO BIG EGOS if they have worked for Marvel in the 21st century. Bendis is a great writer of dark, decompressed superhero storyelling (as long as it was Daredevil in the early 2000's), but his career has proven that he is too egotistical to handle something as precious as Leo, Raph, Mikey and Don... He would be a disaster for TMNT. JMS' Spider-man WAS NOT Spider-man. Peter Parker was a different character from 1962 to 2000. When JMS took over and gave us the god awful 9/11 issue and Sin's Past and the Gwen/Norman affair, he officially declared to the world that HIS Spider-man was not the same guy that fans knew and adored for 38 years. JMS could probably handle TMNT... if he reinvented them beyond all recognition.

Peter David DID work on the TMNT in the form of the 4Kids comic and he just wrote family dynamics and treated the TMNT like the Fantastic Four. Why? Because Peter David DOES NOT understand the TMNT. It was just a paycheck to him.

Marvel, back when Roy Thomas was in charge or when Archie Goodwin (RIP) was top banana... that environment... that sort of corporate atmosphere would have been a good fit for TMNT. Today? too many cooks in the corporate kitchen and a Marvel TMNT would be a cross between 2012, 2K3 and Bay TMNT... it would STILL be aimed at your kids and grandkids and their unborn unborn kids.

Leo656 I think implied it best when he suggested that Vertigo could probably handle it, but DC could not. Everytime DC gets the license to Doc Savage, The Spirit, (insert licensed character here) THESE DAYS, Batman always shows up. Hell, DC doesnt even have the license and IDW is half-ruining a great comic run by making stories about Batman and TMNT or Ghostbusters and TMNT. Because they can't resist a fan-wank. Even IDW can't help themselves.

Marvel licensed ROM Spaceknight way back in the 80's and guess what... Spidey and The Hulk showed up in his book AND he showed up in theirs. Now in our current time when those stories get reprinted ROM has to be deleted from whole stories and panels because guess who no longer has the rights to the Spaceknight.

Facts is facts and corporate culture today WILL NOT allow TMNT to be successfully adopted by DC or Marvel because fan-wanking will happen and Clark Kent will fall into a sewer and OMG. CROSSOVER... Or... Peter Parker will chase a rogue Hulk into Midtown Manhattan and Foot Ninja will be heisting a bank or something. IT JUST WON'T WORK.

EDIT: Everything in this post that was directed negatively toward DC Comics STRICTLY APPLIES TO THE MODERN ERA. It's ALL pretty much Dan DiDio's fault with the backing of Geoff Johns.

[Leo656]

Also, Vertigo is dead, I think, so if TMNT were acquired by DC it would have to be under their "Black Label" imprint or something, I guess.

Although, come to think of it, the He-Man books are still published under the plain ol' "DC" imprint and they've stayed in their own sandbox, to the point where the Masters of the Universe has its own "Multiverse" which isn't necessarily the same as the "DC Multiverse". Or at least it hasn't been utilized as part of it, yet.

So yeah, it's weird, but there's all kinds of examples of DC publishing stuff and not needing to force it into the main line. I mean they sat on "Watchmen" for 30 years, more or less, before they caved into temptation and crossed them over with Superman and Batman and the rest (and even that was only possible due to Parallel Universe Shenanigans and as a one-time deal). And that's the highest-selling graphic novel of all time; more people have read Watchmen than have ever read a TMNT comic. The temptation to have Superman fight Doctor Manhattan or Batman team up with Rorschach must have been tremendous, just from a sales and marketing perspective, but they held off on doing it for a very, very long time. That says a lot about their precedent of restraint. I'unno, I just think they'd handle it better.

Hypothetical Scenario Guesstimation:
- DC acquires TMNT license, odds of in-canon Batman cross-over: About 50-70%.
- Marvel acquires the TMNT license, odds of in-canon Wolverine cross-over: 80-90%.

Note that I said "in-canon" as the TMNT/Batman stuff they've already done is most likely not even close.

But yeah, that's what my gut tells me. Even Image couldn't resist teaming them up with Savage Dragon about 5 minutes into the run, back in the day. If anyone was gonna acquire TMNT, I'd prefer it be a company that shows a little restraint in not trying to fit the square peg in the round hole. But that's me. I'm ONLY basing this opinion on each publisher's track record, not the fact that I have a preference in brands.
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A little harsh on Peter David, weren't ya? I'd totally forgotten he wrote for that Dreamwave TMNT book. And yeah, it wasn't a good example of his work, but to be fair the entire book simply wasn't done well at all. I agree, it was probably a "paycheck project" for him but it's also in no way an indicator on how he'd perform in writing a "real" TMNT book. He's inarguably one of the best, that project just wasn't a good situation.

Odds are good that with enough preparation he could do good work on a "real" TMNT book. Not my first pick, but then again I didn't have high hopes for his Supergirl run, either, and that's the only time the character's ever been the least bit interesting. So I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

[AquaParade]

I never imagined TMNT as a Veritgo book, but it could have been perfect.

I’ll love Marvel and their comics for the rest of my life, but I agree that it’s hard to imagine TMNT being a good fit there these days. I just imagine endless reboots and a lack of focus, unfortunately. Plus 616 New York is too crowded.

DC could still be a good fit, for sure. I’d actually like to see that. I imagine we’d get more attempts at “evergreen” stories. DKR, Watchmen, that sort of book that sells in collected form for decades. The Last Ronin may be a good example.

[PizzaPower1985]

P. David has a long history of doing movie tie-in novelizations and small projects for all kinds of licensed properties. Harsh on P. David? Maybe. Maybe not. I've always thought he was a good writer, just an ill fit for TMNT and his late Spidey work tying in to Civil War was all over the place... a mess. That was kind of a tangent there. Sorry, didn't mean to get so... passionate. The Irish in my blood, maybe? The last thing I want to do is offend.

As far as Watchmen being held back for 30 years... wasn't there some kind of deal where DC screwed Alan Moore because his initial agreement with them was that if the book ever went out of print, he would get full rights and ownership? I think DC just kept the book in print and therefore kept Watchmen out of the DCU so Moore wouldn't be able to find some legal loophole to sue or something.

I have a feeling that your "guesstimations" are probably very accurate. Crossovers can't be helped when huge properties are involved I suppose... People's eyeballs turn into dollar signs.

While we're on this thread... I really wish we could let the IDW book just come to an end... I love it. I think it's the 2nd or 3rd (if u count Mirage) best TMNT thing ever. But Mr. Waltz, Kevin and the IDW crew have written so many miniseries, alternate maxiseries (Universe?) and one-shots that go along with this main series that I think the thing as a whole has suffered. The occasional mini was fine as long as it didn't interfere very much with the MAIN, but now the MAIN has so many editor's notes and so many asides about events outside the MAIN that may not have been followed up by some fans that it is just starting to get a little... tedious. That said, Waltz and Eastman are writing a hell of a TMNT series.

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

DC could still be a good fit, for sure. I’d actually like to see that. I imagine we’d get more attempts at “evergreen” stories. DKR, Watchmen, that sort of book that sells in collected form for decades. The Last Ronin may be a good example.

And... isn't that what TMNT needs... standalone stories without much continuity where a reader can just pick up a story (3-6 issues) and just enjoy it without all of the overarching continuity. I think a "light" continuity is great, something to establish a particular incarnation, a world, a particular iteration that sets it apart from other TMNT outings, but we should get an entire run of standalone stories that offer a "day in the life" similar to a lot of what Mirage did in their later runs between all the guest era and City At War.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by PizzaPower1985

P. David has a long history of doing movie tie-in novelizations and small projects for all kinds of licensed properties. Harsh on P. David? Maybe. Maybe not. I've always thought he was a good writer, just an ill fit for TMNT and his late Spidey work tying in to Civil War was all over the place... a mess. That was kind of a tangent there. Sorry, didn't mean to get so... passionate. The Irish in my blood, maybe? The last thing I want to do is offend.

Nah, didn't even come close to "offending", I just thought it was a bit harsh of an assessment. PAD's never been my favorite or anything but he's done some great stuff on Hulk and Supergirl, among others, two characters that have been historically very difficult to "get right".

I certainly haven't read most or even half of his entire catalog, but I've noticed that he has a good track record of taking concepts that sound bizarre or even awful on paper and making them work somehow. Like, absolutely everything about his Supergirl run sounds just dreadful on paper, from all the Heaven/Hell stuff to Supergirl literally being the Earth Angel Of Fire at one point, but if one actually reads the book A-to-Z it's fantastic. Like I'm about as agnostic as it gets but I'm a fan of well-written stories, and I really expected to hate that run but instead it's my favorite Supergirl series of all time. It's all about how the ideas are executed, in the end.

So yeah, I think Peter David might actually work really well on TMNT in the right context. I can see him not being afraid to dive deep into all the existential stuff that Mirage used to get into sometimes. "Freaks" and outcasts trying to find their place, the idea of being utterly unique and alone in the world, what it means to be "human", all that stuff. David's tackled those themes and similar to great effect in other books, so I have to believe that with the right situation, he could potentially do a really, really, really good TMNT book. He does three-dimensional characters really, really well, without sacrificing any action or plot. I'd actually like to see it happen, quite frankly.

That's a lot of "If's", though, I will grant you. As you said, the Dreamwave book is a perfect example of how even really good writers can "slum it" if the circumstances are poor. But I don't think it's a blanket statement on how well he'd do in a "real" TMNT book. He'd probably do better than most.

Hot Take: Peter David might not have anywhere near the same intimate knowledge and affection for the TMNT as Eastman and/or Laird, but he's certainly a much better writer than either of them. I don't see anyone arguing that point unless they were incredibly biased. So if he was given a TMNT project that wasn't simply there to hype a cartoon show or toy line, I think he could potentially do something awesome.

If.

[DarkFell]

Keep the TMNT diverse as it is.

Each incarnation of the franchise is always going to have it's own fans & critics, and gnashing at each other's throats about which version is better, is the equivalent of pushing Sisyphus' boulder up the hill.

Let the fans enjoy what they want to their own measure.

[Dejablue]

This question has been asked so many times in slightly different ways.

I think the TMNT could do with some grit in its next iteration. I really wish the people in charge would think about variety and how each version could be different instead of sticking to a popular trend and only going one way over the other.

It'd be cool if 2 different turtle shows could be running at the same time. One for kids, the other for older teens/adults.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Around 1991, TMNT could legitimately make the case for being an "all-ages" property, because between all the different cartoons, comics, prose novellas and video games, you were bound to connect with SOMEthing no matter how old you were or how long you'd been a fan of the property. Now, it's not only "just for kids", but when older fans ask for more content aimed at them, or take issue with any of what presently exists and dare to say so out loud, they are openly told to get lost and f*ck off. "We don't want or need you as fans, anyway." Which is like... WHAT?

Funny how that works.

Originally Posted by DarkFell

Keep the TMNT diverse as it is.

If by "diverse" you mean a slow and deliberate course toward only catering to 6 year-olds? Then no.

[DarkFell]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

If by "diverse" you mean a slow and deliberate course toward only catering to 6 year-olds? Then no.

Both the OT and 2K12 versions are similar to each other, but they are also different in some aspects.

2K3 is similar to Mirage and IDW Turtles in terms of atmosphere, but they also engage in their own thing and that keeps them separated despite being on the more serious side of the franchise.

That's what I meant by diverse.

The TMNT franchise is a multi-facet gem. There will be some edges that won't be appealing to everyone, but there are some things for people to enjoy from it.

[Dejablue]

When it comes to tmnt being more dark and aimed at adults. What does that entail actually. What counts as being for adults? I'm just curious because I have my own ideas for that but I want to hear what others think first.

Also is being more adult the desire or being more true to the idea of tmnt being for "all ages."

[ZariusTwo]

A lot of the time I feel modern adults are, in terms of mental maturity, no different than moody twelve-year olds. Kids are always thinking dark things even when they're watching cutesy stuff, and write just as much mindless edgy content as Didio-era DC.

In the very first fanfic I ever wrote, I killed off at least three people. I was eight and in Primary School, hooked on shows like The Shoe People and The Family Ness. I got a gold star for it.