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Old 08-03-2018, 03:35 AM   #141
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I'm glad the creators didn't care about that though or no T2
I don't know, I enjoy time loops and generally get them but if I think too much sometimes I can get into knots, Skynet failing and then trying again was good enough for me.

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Old 08-03-2018, 09:11 AM   #142
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I just realized that the actress in the center of that promo pic is Mackenzie Davis, who was also in an episode of Black Mirror and had a part in Blade Runner 2049.

She's so unrecognizably buff that I honestly thought it was a dude at first.

I think the lines on her arms might be a visual reference to the Cyberdyne logo:

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Mirage [is]...a comic about life and how life and the people closest to you just absolutely suck sometimes. It's "adult" in a very real sense, in that it deals with heavy themes that resonate more with adults, not that it's full of blood and titties or whatever.
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[TMNT 1990 director Steve] Barron recognized the early Mirage issues as perfect storyboards. It's a shame no other filmmaker has.
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Old 08-03-2018, 09:44 AM   #143
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Sure, Terminator 2 is still a good movie, I'm not denying that. I'm just saying it doesn't make sense as a sequel.

If Sarah raised John to be a soldier in the first movie, that implies it's set in a stable time loop, the photo just clinched it. This means that the mission to destroy Cyberdyne in the second one makes no sense, because we already know they can't change anything.
We don't know that they can't change anything. Even despite the "closed loop" of the first movie, we know there had to be an original timeline where there was no loop. A timeline where John's dad was someone other than Reese, before Reese took that first travel back in time to step in and supplant that dad ad nauseum in the loop that was formed.

And even in a closed loop, repeated loops of it can introduce variables. Think the (highly underrated) "Predestination" movie.
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Old 08-03-2018, 09:53 AM   #144
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We don't know that they can't change anything. Even despite the "closed loop" of the first movie, we know there had to be an original timeline where there was no loop. A timeline where John's dad was someone other than Reese, before Reese took that first travel back in time to step in and supplant that dad ad nauseum in the loop that was formed.

And even in a closed loop, repeated loops of it can introduce variables. Think the (highly underrated) "Predestination" movie.
How exactly do we know there had to be a timeline where Kyle wasn't John's father? Based entirely on the first movie of course.
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Old 08-03-2018, 09:58 AM   #145
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How exactly do we know there had to be a timeline where Kyle wasn't John's father? Based entirely on the first movie of course.
Because someone can't always have time-traveled from the future to the past before said future even existed.

It'd be like, starting Star Trek in 1966 with the Abrams movie, with Nero time-travelling back to blow up Vulcan and that's the first Trek we ever got or saw. Does that mean there wasn't an original timeline where Vulcan was still around for centuries and Nero didn't do that (yet?)?
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Old 08-03-2018, 10:43 AM   #146
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Because someone can't always have time-traveled from the future to the past before said future even existed.

It'd be like, starting Star Trek in 1966 with the Abrams movie, with Nero time-travelling back to blow up Vulcan and that's the first Trek we ever got or saw. Does that mean there wasn't an original timeline where Vulcan was still around for centuries and Nero didn't do that (yet?)?
Or starting the Back to the Future trilogy with Marty's richer, better looking parents in the "Lone Pine" reality as the default setting.
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Mirage [is]...a comic about life and how life and the people closest to you just absolutely suck sometimes. It's "adult" in a very real sense, in that it deals with heavy themes that resonate more with adults, not that it's full of blood and titties or whatever.
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[TMNT 1990 director Steve] Barron recognized the early Mirage issues as perfect storyboards. It's a shame no other filmmaker has.
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Old 08-06-2018, 03:01 AM   #147
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Come to think of it... it almost seems certain that Arnold is playing an evil Terminator in this. They showed their "heroes" picture in EW with the middle chick who is clearly a Terminator... how likely is it they have TWO friendly Terminators in their ranks?
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Old 02-03-2019, 06:27 PM   #148
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Buried on Page 12, so I assume that, like me, most of us have moved on from the franchise and think it was better left alone after Part 2.

That said, has anyone else seen this being discussed anywhere?
https://screenrant.com/terminator-6-...-judgment-day/

Spoiler:
- The ending of T2 "never happened" now? As in the most emotional part of the entire film, the part that elevates it from "decent action movie" to "Actually just a damn great MOVIE"-movie?
- Flashback scenes with a stand-in for Ed Furlong as John, retconning the finish of T2?
- John Connor either dead or not involved to any significant degree?
- Borrowing anything at all from "Genysis", specifically, "Arnold's Terminator has just been hanging around getting old since 1992"?


Dude... I don't care that Cameron himself is involved. None of that sounds like a good idea.

Two movies and a few pretty good books published by NOW Comics in 1988-1992. That's literally all the Terminator stuff the world ever needed. Maaaaybe the "Superman/Terminator: Death to the Future" mini-series, but even that is seriously pushing it.
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Old 02-03-2019, 09:24 PM   #149
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Man, those sound like some odd choices.

Movie would have to be truly special for me to forgive those moves.
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Old 02-03-2019, 09:48 PM   #150
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Still to be confirmed, of course. But with what they described being based on stuff that's actually been seen being filmed... hm.

We'll see. As someone who thought T3 was alright (better than expected, really), "Salvation" wasn't quite treated fairly, opinion-wise (although the fact that it's not very memorable says a lot; I liked it more than most people, but I can't tell you much about it), and that "Genysis" was the single worst thing to carry the "Terminator" name since the NES games... my official position remains, "Two was all we needed, and frankly, the original wasn't all that great in the first place."

I mean, the original's a good movie, but T2 is a GREAT movie. People generally only describe the original as "great" because without it, the second one couldn't exist. But it's rather generic 80s action/sci-fi, taken completely as its own thing. A creative premise and a good-looking lead cast makes people forgive a lot. There's nothing "wrong" with it, but if the second one hadn't been such a knockout, we wouldn't revere the first one so much. That's just the way it is.

Likewise, "Genysis" was merely "Generic mid-2010s action/sci-fi", and I'm not sure they've figured out why it didn't work.

I'unno, we'll see. It'll take a lot to change my mind. Again, I like T3 and Salvation much more than any of you do, I'm sure... but I would never really be able to defend them in court, if you get me. I'm not convinced they deserve to exist, although I think they're Just Fine. At best, this new one might be more of the same.
---------

Also... anyone actually have or have read the NOW Comics "Terminator" books? I have a few. They're alright. Alex Ross's first major work was on some of the covers. Much of it came out before T2, so it was all the fans could get at that point, so they're an interesting curiosity if nothing else. A neat look at the franchise before it became a "Franchise".

They were fairly well-acclaimed when they were new, as I recall. I sadly don't own "The Burning Earth", which was apparently the most acclaimed. Maybe one day.
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Old 02-03-2019, 10:38 PM   #151
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Iíve enjoyed all the sequels. Genysis is the weakest since it does so much and the follow up to that never happened leaving it totally open.

I actually think T2 is too much of a redo of the first. It just sends back another supposedly more powerful terminator that chases them for the whole movie.

I would prefer they continue from Salvation or do another war movie keeping it in the future.

About the T2 ending being undone. I personally do not mind. I had a similar idea about the T800 staying alive and living among humans til Skynet takes over. I mentioned it pages ago on here.
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Old 02-03-2019, 10:57 PM   #152
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Well, that's certainly an opinion.

I think if you overdo any "good" idea, it turns to sludge, and thus, most good things shouldn't be franchised to death. They inevitably are, but they shouldn't be. I strongly believe that some things need to be kept pure. But I get it, that's not an opinion that's gonna fly around here. This forum only exists to worship the franchising of Good Things to death, after all.

But I do agree that I'd be far more interested in seeing more of the actual "Future War", a'la "Salvation", since that's the only part of the franchise that HASN'T been beaten into the ground. That's what I'd do. I'd be more curious about more of that; I'm very not interested in someone trying to convince me that they can reboot the "classic" films into something better. I'm sick of time travel and parallel dimensions and the plot holes and headaches they cause. T2 actually had a point of view, it was *about* something... if we can't get back to THAT, can we at least keep it simple and just have a bunch of ragtag soldiers fighting killer robots in the far future?

All the time travel nonsense... Do people generally not understand that "Terminator" is NOT about time travel, specifically? It's about Fate vs. Free Will; the time travel and killer robots just make it colorful. Just because those things are IN the plot, doesn't mean that's what the story is ABOUT. That's what "Genysis" completely didn't understand. That's why I feel you can't keep making these; you just get further and further away from the POINT of the story, which was simply, "The future isn't written, there's no fate but what we make for ourselves."

"Nah man. Robots. TIME TRAVEL ROBOTS. With machine guns." I get it, but that isn't the story's point.

There's two groups of Terminator Fans: The "As Long As We Get More Movies" camp, and the "Do We Need Any More Movies If They're Not Gonna Help Anything?" camp. Guess which one I'm in!
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Old 02-03-2019, 11:16 PM   #153
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Well you know how I feel about building on a story/world. So I donít mind more movies Iíd just prefer they get on with the war or even something different.

I really liked the idea of the T-Infinity. I havenít read any of the comics but after I found out about that character it sounds awesome to me.

Even if robots and time travel were not the point I think you could do more than returning over and over again. Time travel doesnít have to be repetitive.

Maybe they have though. This might actually do something really creative.
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Old 02-04-2019, 12:15 AM   #154
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Doing the math, IF those rumors are true, then I'm pretty sure that what's gonna happen is, they go back to the end of T2, and something happens so that John dies and the T-800 lives. If they're doing flashback scenes with a stand-in for Young John, and "John Connor" himself either doesn't appear or barely appears in this new one... I can't imagine what else they'd be doing.

That really isn't gonna work. That Ending was the entire emotional lynchpin of the movie, and what the entire moral lesson of the film hinged upon. The idea that a CYBORG (or whatever) had come to understand and even care for humanity SO much, that he was willing to sacrifice himself to ensure that Humanity would survive, even if it went against the very concept behind his own existence.

"If a machine... a Terminator... can come to understand the value of human life... maybe we can, too..." ((Cue Epic Closing Soundtrack))

I can't understand why anyone would want to walk back on that. Especially the guy who filmed it in the first place. Surely he more than anyone would understand why it's dangerous to tinker with stuff like that.

Frankly, I find "world-building" to be fun when appropriate but absolutely not necessary for every single story. The "world" is essentially supposed to be our own; the only place with room to "build" is in the future, and they're afraid to go back there after "Salvation" underwhelmed.

Some things are just better as self-contained things with a beginning, middle, and end. Would "They Live" be a (cult) classic film if it was just the first one in a series, and they then spent eight movies chasing the Evil Aliens across the galaxy? I don't need everything handed to me and over-explained. I don't need to know about the aliens' homeworld. I don't care who created the Magic Sunglasses. The movie wasn't ABOUT that, it was a metaphor for 80s consumerism and corporate greed, no more and no less. It's brilliant satire and social commentary. If they'd done even ONE more of them, then it's Just Another Movie About Alien Invaders. "World-building" would have ruined the SH*T out of that movie, and I'm glad they didn't bother screwing with it.

"A writer can tell any story they want; the wisdom is in knowing when they shouldn't." I forget who first said that but it's accurate as hell.

I'm starting to wonder if Cameron's just starting to worry about his retirement egg. He's made a lot of questionable decisions in recent years. I'm beginning to feel like... maybe he's never been all that great and just got really, really lucky a few times?
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Old 02-04-2019, 12:57 AM   #155
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Ya that was the point of him sacrificing himself but if Skynet taking over is inevitable (as T3 suggests, I know it’s not being acknowledged) I can see them being like...this whole thing is too big a risk. I’ll stay and we can prepare for this another way. Might seem like an excuse but it works imo.

That’s why I like the T-Infinity because it’s purpose is to balance out timelines and ensure Skynet takes over. It’s cool and practical

I know a lot people think that about movies...knowing when to stop...but I don’t think that’s the problem. I think a lot times things either get a little repetitive or sometimes ends up more complicated if different writers come along.

Pretty much what happened here. I would have liked to see what they had planned for a Genisys 2. It probably would have created more questions but at least it would have explained the point.

I’ve never seen They Live but I actually do think of that “other stuff” that we don’t see and wonder what it would be like if they made it. That’s me though. I feel if you have a unique idea it should be developed.

Oh and I’m sure Cameron would be fine without another Terminator movie.
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Old 02-04-2019, 01:33 AM   #156
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Oh, I wonder about things, but my imagination does the job just fine.

Only some of people's problems with the Star Wars Prequels, for example - or "Solo" - were about acting, direction, etc. A huge chunk of it was, "These are questions that didn't need spoon-fed answers."

Most things are actually better in your head than they'd ever be on the screen. If you over-develop a unique idea, it simply isn't unique anymore. You polish something too much, you rub all the shine off.

As for the validity of T3's "The Future is written, everything is predetermined by Fate" moral... I'm sorry, that's just a terrible message to send. They literally only did that to leave the door open for more movies. Fatalism isn't a philosophy anyone should embrace; it explicitly states that "Nothing matters, everything is predetermined." And that's plain terrible. If I'm "fated" to die poor, why should I go to work every day? If I'm "fated" to get divorced, should I even bother getting married?

I believe that people have Free Will, and that you create your own future. I feel very strongly about that. All life is about choice, which implies freedom. Fatalism isn't just the exact opposite of everything I believe in as a human being, it's also a terribly soul-crushing and defeating thing to believe in altogether.

If the ultimate moral of this series is going to be, "Nothing matters, we're definitely gonna all die via Sentient Interwebz and Evil Robots no matter what we do"... then I'm definitely not interested. Where's the HOPE in that? WHY even fight back? This is what I don't get. It's illogical.

They took a story that was fundamentally about Hope, and turned it into the exact opposite. That's a very questionable decision, even if it IS the only way they get to keep making movies. But that brings us back to... "Should they?"
-----------

Yes, he probably is fine, better even, but he's entirely too preoccupied with his eight Avatar sequels nobody wants, and now he may have retconned the ending of his best movie just so he could make another one. These aren't the choices of someone who's operating at peak functionality. These are the deeds of a man who's getting old and suddenly very, very concerned as to whether anyone's going to remember anything he did after "Titanic".

He also comes off as a complete lunatic in interviews, but that's a whole other topic.
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Old 02-04-2019, 02:02 AM   #157
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Oh I believe in free will too (look at my signature...I didn’t just use it because it’s from Sonic). I meant if they wanted to rework how Skynet took over I’d be ok with it. As long as it was plausible.

The speculation is that maybe John dies for some reason after the events of T2 and they go back to stop the T800 from sacrificing himself. I’d be fine with that.

Sure they’ve already gotten the message across but you could probably say that about a lot of movies. To continue the characters and concept is a different thing. Which I like so...

Well Cameron is actually involved this time so I just hope he doesn’t go back on it or ignore it one day.
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Old 02-04-2019, 03:08 AM   #158
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The greatest bit of hope comes from the fact that it is indeed Cameron himself at the wheel, and you would hope he of all people would understand what works and what doesn't for this franchise.

We shall see.
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Old 02-04-2019, 09:33 AM   #159
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This franchise is long dead after T2 and the dead horse has been beaten as this franchise is like a recessative shambling zombie that's what is, it should be shot in the head so it won't shuffle around anymore searching for new life! i feel the story ended well with T2 as Skynet was finally destroyed and John and Sarah moved on with their lives.

I mean, your just gonna keep getting diminishing returns and when that happens let it die, come up with new franchises! let it rest in peace.
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Old 02-06-2019, 11:16 AM   #160
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"Nah man. Robots. TIME TRAVEL ROBOTS. With machine guns." I get it, but that isn't the story's point.

There's two groups of Terminator Fans: The "As Long As We Get More Movies" camp, and the "Do We Need Any More Movies If They're Not Gonna Help Anything?" camp. Guess which one I'm in!
I prefer any movies over NO movies.
Besides, it's not like I have any influence on the franchise.

Also, franchise can evolve beyond its original idea. Not in this case though.
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