Classic ep discussion: The Return of the Shredder

[Coola Yagami]

And who can forget that Peter Cullen (Optimus Prime) voiced Slash? "Remember, we're the Crooked Ninja Turtle Gang.... here's our card."

[Cipher]

This episode, like most of the second season, is terrible. You can tell the show was really searching for its footing here, because neither the humor nor action really comes through. Some of the most slapstick fighting and woefully deadpan jokes come from this episode.

And the animation is a shame, again more indicative of the season than this particular episode.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

I like the supermarket fight.

[NameGoesHere1066]

I think what bothered me about this episode was how bright the colors looked for some reason.

[MikeandRaph87]

I justed watched this episode and it occured to me,how did Baxter Stockman find the turtles' lair? Except for this Shredder just knows its in the sewers not where in the sewers as we learn in Catwoman From Channel Six when Bebop and Rocksteady accidently stumble into the lair and Shredder ask them where it was located. How can Baxter bursting through the wall of thier lair be explained?

[cammy85]

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

I justed watched this episode and it occured to me,how did Baxter Stockman find the turtles' lair? Except for this Shredder just knows its in the sewers not where in the sewers as we learn in Catwoman From Channel Six when Bebop and Rocksteady accidently stumble into the lair and Shredder ask them where it was located. How can Baxter bursting through the wall of thier lair be explained?

I was just thinking the same thing earlier!! Baxter started out as a rat exterminator so maybe he invented a device to sniff out mutant rats while locked away or beforehand. He stuck with Shredder until becoming a fly so maybe he didn't have time to use it again.

[MikeandRaph87]

Originally Posted by cammy85

I was just thinking the same thing earlier!! Baxter started out as a rat exterminator so maybe he invented a device to sniff out mutant rats while locked away or beforehand. He stuck with Shredder until becoming a fly so maybe he didn't have time to use it again.

You mean something like that device Bebop used in Turtle forever when he,Rocksteady, and Hun find the '03 turtles' new lair? With Baxter mutated into a fly and his intellect gradually reflecting his fly form he forgot and never got around to telling Shredder exactly where it was before they got wrapped up in the Sarneth epic. Would that work?

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

You mean something like that device Bebop used in Turtle forever when he,Rocksteady, and Hun find the '03 turtles' new lair? With Baxter mutated into a fly and his intellect gradually reflecting his fly form he forgot and never got around to telling Shredder exactly where it was before they got wrapped up in the Sarneth epic. Would that work?

The biggest inconsistency of the OT is whether Shredder and co knew the location of turtles lair is or had the means to find it or whether it was a complete mystery to them were in the sewers the turtles lived.

I guess it's just one of those things you just have to brush off as cartoon continuity but even as a kid it was very noticeable.

[MikeandRaph87]

Originally Posted by Galactus

The biggest inconsistency of the OT is whether Shredder and co knew the location of turtles lair is or had the means to find it or whether it was a complete mystery to them were in the sewers the turtles lived.

I guess it's just one of those things you just have to brush off as cartoon continuity but even as a kid it was very noticeable.

Nah,the biggest inconsistency is how Krang ended up in the bubble walker inbetween Shredder Triumphant and Get Shredder! when he was in the andriod body when Bebop drove them off after they lost the Technodrome.

Back on topic,Pizza By The Shred's entire premise was Shredder trying to find the turtles hideout. A couple of times they were closing in and the turtles went to them to prevent them from getting too close like in My Brother The Bad Guy when the three samuri robotic hloograms were unleashed on them. If memory serves Rat King knew where the turtles lived. He broke into the turtles lair after Shredder gave him the hi-tech weaponary. Its possible Rat King eventually learned thier location but did not share it with Shredder. This is the only other time someone working with Shredder broke into the lair. If that explaination with Baxter above is in character and the one with Rat King is in character then it would explain why The Shredder never knew the exact location.

[cammy85]

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

You mean something like that device Bebop used in Turtle forever when he,Rocksteady, and Hun find the '03 turtles' new lair? With Baxter mutated into a fly and his intellect gradually reflecting his fly form he forgot and never got around to telling Shredder exactly where it was before they got wrapped up in the Sarneth epic. Would that work?

In Turtles Forever, they used the same Scent Analyzer Lotus Blossom used to find their lair in S3. I'm guessing this was one of Baxter's inventions he used or maybe E invented the prototype for the scent analyzer in the first place?

[Sage Ninja]

I think the biggest WTF moment in the OT, regarding the inconsistant concern for the secretsy for the turtles lair,was in the first Lotus Blossom episode. At the end where the turtles are in the lair gathered around a table discussing the events that had happened, a pizza delevery guy shows up (Lotus Blossom) and gives them a pizza. The turtles don't even question how some random person just found their lair and wandered into their kitchen, and Donatello even suggests they should tip the guy. They don't care that someone found their lair, or that it might be bad to just let him go?

[pannoni1]

I justed watched this episode and it occured to me,how did Baxter Stockman find the turtles' lair?

Baxter was successful with his mousers finding the Turtles' lair in A Thing About Rats, so Baxter probably watched where the mousers were tracking in order to locate the Turtles' lair.

Comparing the Fred Wolf, Archie, and Random House versions, these are what I've compared:

-The Random House version only mentions the supermarket scene in half a sentence, starting immediately with the scene where the Turtles are eating pizza. It only mentions Michelangelo's "dudes weren't like the Foot" quote and the "Shredder is stuck in Dimension X", which in Archie is said by Raphael instead of Donatello.
-Bebop, Rocksteady, Irma, Vernon, and Tiffany does not appear in the Random House version, with Burne Thompson only referred to as "April's boss" and wears a white shirt with a red tie.
-The Central Park scene in Random House begins right with Shredder on his com-link with krang. The Archie and Random House com-links look quire similar in design, though the blue is a bit brighter on the Random House version.
-The shot of Shredder slicing the punching bag at the dojo looks quite similar in Archie/Random House.
-Archie contains an extra scene (pages 21 and 22 of #1) with Vernon's report (last name is Prindle).
-There is no Newsvan in Random House, the Channel 6 Van is yellow in Archie, and blue (the first episode it's blue) in Fred Wolf.
-There is no "Napoleon Guy" in Random House, and cuts right to the scene where Baxter mentions about finishing his Rat Catcher. Archie and Random house both mention that he's interested in catching Splinter, while Fred Wolf omits it.
-Random House cuts right to the scene where the Turtles climb aboard the Blimp meaning that the Turtle Van doesn't make an appearance. Also, Leonardo says "April, this is Leonardo, we'll be right there!" after Donatello says "Quit clowning" in Archie, which is cut in FW.
-Random House then cuts right to the scene where Splinter gets kidnapped by Baxter in the Lair.
-During the battle with the Crooked Ninja gang, the Archie version contains the lines "Hold 'em back a sec, Michaelangelo" by Raphael, Michelangelo's "Drum roll masestro", and Donatello's "You fellas look like you could use a belt... steel-belt!" that Fred Wolf omits.
-In Archie, Shredder's message says "Meet me at the Slash For Cash Dojo if you dare!", while in Fred Wolf, it says "Meet me if you dare at the Slash For Cash Dojo." In is not present in Random House.
-The scene where April returns to the Lair to find it empty is omitted in Random House.
-The line where April tells Irma to send a news crew is omitted in Archie and Random House.
-April's report of the gang is omitted in Random House, only briefly hinted upon by police sirens.
-In Archie, Shredder calls Baxter an idiot right before Leonardo unties Splinter.
-Krang does not tell Shredder that he was beaten after he failed.

One thing that I feel Krang could have done is train Bebop and Rocksteady harder in the Technodrome to prevent them from becoming dumbed down.

Overall, a pretty good season opener about on par with Beneath These Streets, and the Crooked Ninja Turtle Gang are the closet we ever got to Dark Turtles in this series, and is one of the best fights in the whole show.

[zkarlette]

Originally Posted by Sage Ninja

I think the biggest WTF moment in the OT, regarding the inconsistant concern for the secretsy for the turtles lair,was in the first Lotus Blossom episode. At the end where the turtles are in the lair gathered around a table discussing the events that had happened, a pizza delevery guy shows up (Lotus Blossom) and gives them a pizza. The turtles don't even question how some random person just found their lair and wandered into their kitchen, and Donatello even suggests they should tip the guy. They don't care that someone found their lair, or that it might be bad to just let him go?

This is exactly what I was thinking the other day.
Then Leo finds the flower and doesn't attempt to follow her or anything,while splinter just makes a face of "I see, I wonder if that was Lotus". But let's proceed with whatever we were doing...

[SwordofTengu]

I thought it was a pretty good episode. I liked the return of Stockman and I liked the idea of Burne having a dumb, attractive girlfriend.

However, I expected it to be a more epic episode based on its title.

[ryukenden]

This was the first episode of the OT that I have ever watched. I remembered recording this on VHS and watching it repeatedly.

[Pterobat]

Okay, I've been going through my favourite OT episodes and picking which ones I want to devote a long-form yet point-form listing to, and this is one that came up on my radar. I usually end up with a lot to say, and this is no different:

—It’s the start of a new season. I know the results are usually seen as a huge step down from the quality of the first season / pilot, and strongly disliked for it. Others wish the old cartoon would have kept the tone of season one forever.

—But I’m not upset about this. Yes, the animation took a hit, and the tone is now softer and the battles less intense, but it’s not a huge difference and I’m not invested in the idea that the first season is flawless, or that it was necessarily the ideal for the old cartoon. I see where other fans are coming from, but don’t feel that big a sting from the downgrade.

—A lot of people give Leonardo junk for having “no personality”, but it often seems to be a case of, “This character is disciplined and stoic, and therefore he has no personality because ‘having a personality’ means being vivacious”. His arguing with Mikey over the best sickening pizza toppings to buy is showing a personality, that he’s more stoic and disciplined.

—But yes, I know that this argument is also made because FW Leo spent a lot of time stating the obvious. That, is easier to understand.

—I can also buy the lady mistaking the Turtles for alligators: I have relatives who care that little about distinguishing between animals.

—What’s interesting is that the season begins with a departure from the status quo that everyone remembers from their childhoods, and the one that existed for the majority of the series. Shredder gets sent back to Earth with nothing because he begs Krang for the ride, and then has to further beg Krang for whatever he gets, while Bebop and Rocksteady hang around and play Beavis and Butt-head from the Technodrome.

—This state would have gotten old in a different way than the common formula did, and it works best as a temporary thing. Such a formula doesn’t use the villains to their full potential: in order to do that, all the villains would need to be together, and using all the same toys.

—Furthermore, kids would have gotten bored with the visual drabness of Shredder just hanging out on Earth. But it is hilarious, and because I forgot this period in the s how’s history existed, I “rediscovered” it as a new, novel thing. So, you know, I like the temporary departure, but just understand the potential problems with it.

—Shredder begging like a cuss to get more of his stupid weapons is great. We get some great jokes and lines, and I love watching it. Old married couple, indeed.

—The only problem is that the big criminal operations that Shredder had in season one are totally forgotten. For me it’s more a problem of continuity than a problem of making Shredder look wimpier. I’m just not that invested in the idea that he should be a “better” villain. Being funny is where FW Shredder’s strength is, and I would tweak some of the writing faults but not abandon the goofy angle entirely.

— I don’t like any of the Channel 6 crew as characters, but giving April a life outside the Turtles, providing her with friends and co-workers to make sure she is not totally defined by the Turtles, is important. A good series tries to develop the lives of its secondary and tertiary characters.

—But ordinary human characters probably bore most kids, I realize this. I just can’t let go of this idea that there are storytelling principles that transcend target age and tone, which is why I’d make a terrible writer for children.

—Irma is my least favourite of all the Channel 6 characters. I know I’ve said it all before, but: I expected a funny, fellow nerd-girl and got animated Cathy instead, whose characters flaws are not comedic flaws but just things she is “supposed” to do because she’s a female character. And she’s not nerdy, just gawky in an annoying way. Irma’s only saving graces are her few moments of wry cynicism, which she doesn’t have enough of.

—Burne is the least aggravating of the three characters. His J. Jonah Jameson-like hate of the Turtles being revealed as just a way to impress his trophy girlfriend save them from being a transparent rip-off of JJJ. But when the series keeps going with this angle, it doesn’t work.

—There’s still some continuity with Splinter’s transformation going on. I’m going to review some Splinter episodes eventually, and I enjoy the series having story arcs while they last. Having them doesn’t compromise the humour and the light tone of the series, and I miss ‘em a little.

—Though I like seeing the Shredder get screwed over, I’ll admit that it was a mistake to whittle down his fighting prowess as the series goes on. A villain should have the advantage over the heroes, and the Shredder could still have this and remain a funny, stupid character. Nobody needs to go all-out.

—A lot of people are probably excited by Peter Cullen’s various voice cameos in this episode, with Smash being the longest one, though I think he also played “Napoleon” and one of the Shredder’s would-be muggers. I never liked Optimus Prime, and none of his other roles have really gotten under my skin, so it’s lost on me except as a spot-the-VA game.

—The Crooked Ninja Turtle Gang is one of those gags that don’t seem self-aware. Not everything in this show is ironic, and plenty of its clichés are used earnestly, for the purposes of plot. That the Shredder continues to think of them as his pawns doesn’t mean the whole thing was intended as a satire. I don’t think it is.

—Besides all that I mentioned above, another thing that distinguishes the first half of season two is that human Baxter Stockman is the Shredder’s current sidekick. I had completely forgotten he hung around in human form for that long, and Baxter has really grown on me, with (as far as White Baxter goes,) his insane human version being my favourite, even if he’s the most cliché in comparison to the ordinary Baxter and Baxterfly.

—This is the best episode for human FW Baxter as he usually is: the mad, simpering henchman. While there are funny moments in the rest of his episodes, and “Curse of the Evil Eye” is in a class all by itself, the gonzo visuals of the insane asylum and the Ultimate Rat Catcher, and equal displays of malevolence and spinelessness make “Return of the Shredder” stand out on that level.

—From what I can make out on my DVD, the insane asylum is called, “Sunny Dale Home of the Bewildered”. I love the absurd way it’s visualized: giant green recliners and bright yellow padding, with a guy in full Napoleon costume.

—Usually I try to let continuity slide, but Baxter’s unknown transition to evil bugs the heck out of me. Not only is he far more nasty, but he shows a solidarity with Shredder that wasn’t present before, even when he describes the events of “A Thing About Rats”. It’s never explained why, and it makes it pointless to start out with him unvillainous.

—And how does Baxter know who Splinter is, anyway? He didn’t seem to be around when the Shredder directly talked about him.

—Tiffany and Burne were totally doing it in his office. Yikes.

—I can believe her scream is a sonic death ray, too.

—I freaking love the Ultimate Rat Catcher. It’s such an insane design, with random, useless arms everywhere holding junk, crazy jaws, and all that whatever. I wonder if it was ever optioned as a vehicle for Playmates Toys, because it would fit right in with the rest of those ridiculous vehicles.

—While I still assume that Baxter Stockman wanted to kill rats purely for profit, the old cartoon brings up the exterminator angle again in this episode, and this time Baxter seems genuinely happy at the prospect of some rodent murderin’. It’s another inconsistency in his new persona, but it’s easier to accept as just a symptom of his inexplicable insanity.

—Pat Fraley’s crazy cackling and warbling is inspired, and for some reason I find it humorous instead of wanting to poke out my own eardrums. It’s weird.

—While Splinter is often a kidnap victim, he gets redeemed more often than April does, having his moments of respectability and usefulness to counterbalance those kidnappings. She doesn’t have enough to really stand against these other moments.

—Shoddy materials on that Ultimate Rat Catcher

—That giant fist-tipped battering ram reminds me of the Dreadful Flying Glove from Yellow Submarine…

—April’s arrival really doesn’t do much, does it?

—April winking at Splinter is pretty damn odd. And try not to think about the implications of what that means. I know I’m not.

—Overall, I see why this is considered a step down, and why this new status quo didn’t last for long. But y’know what? It’s still a fun episode, mostly for watching the villains get messed with.

[oldmanwinters]

While watching a security tape of Smash kicking open the door after a robbery, Leonardo remarks that his technique looks familiar, leading him and Donatello to conclude that only Splinter or Shredder could have taught him that.

Coincidence or not, the kick is surprisingly similar to the Foot Soldier who knocks over a Cola machine in the flashback sequence of "Turtle Tracks."

https://turtlepedia.fandom.com/wiki/File:Ttracks172.png

https://turtlepedia.fandom.com/wiki/...der_13m58s.jpg

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by oldmanwinters

While watching a security tape of Smash kicking open the door after a robbery, Leonardo remarks that his technique looks familiar, leading him and Donatello to conclude that only Splinter or Shredder could have taught him that.

Coincidence or not, the kick is surprisingly familiar to the Foot Soldier who knocks over a Cola machine in the flashback sequence of "Turtle Tracks."

https://turtlepedia.fandom.com/wiki/File:Ttracks172.png

https://turtlepedia.fandom.com/wiki/...der_13m58s.jpg

Oh wow, I actually never made that connection before, good find!

It is also funny how out of all the people in the world, Donatello assumed only two individuals were skilled enough to perform a basic kick.

Is it really that much of a hard technique to master?

[oldmanwinters]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

Oh wow, I actually never made that connection before, good find!

It is also funny how out of all the people in the world, Donatello assumed only two individuals were skilled enough to perform a basic kick.

Is it really that much of a hard technique to master?

I wouldn't call it simple, as the martial artists does seem to momentarily defy gravity by lingering in mid-air.

[Wesley]

I rewatched this episode again recently and thought it was very good after disliking it the last time I watched it. It helps to forget about season 1 and treat the show as a straight comedy from this ep onwards.

Loved it when Baxter referenced Spider-Man “Greetings from your friendly neighborhood rat-catcher.”

Funnily enough, the name of the asylum Baxter was in reminded me of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.