Did anybody not watch OOTS? at all

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Atleast she got to do Tang Shen and Alopex in the Nick Cartoon which I liked.

Karai in OOTS practically didnt exist. She stood around in the background of the whole film before being beat by Vernon and April at the end. I wonder why she was recast at all

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I don't understand why people think obscurity is such a bad thing. Probably 50% of all stories I enjoy are obscure or "niche."

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

It kinda makes me wonder how OOTS wouldve been if Shredder, Karai and Baxter were removed entirely and it was just Krang on earth commanding Bebop and Rocksteady.

Hmm... I dunno, Bebop and Rocksteady are generally Shredder's lackeys, so they sort of still need him, imo. But I wish the film had revolved more around Krang's doings.

Technically, this is an alien invasion film... but how many alien invasion movies exist where everything is resolved before anything bad actually happens? I mean, at least bring some destruction to the city and/or world first. Give the Turtles a verified evil thing to stop and save the day, for which the citizens are grateful for the unknown heroes.

As it stands, they can't report on who got rid of it or how, so what does the average citizen know? "There was a weird thing in the sky... then by dinner it was gone." They wouldn't even know if it was actually dangerous to them, even if likely assumed.


edit: Actually the film seems to span at least three days (in which no one seems to ever sleep and some never change clothing), so I take that back. But still.. three or more days and the object in the sky causes no actual harm. (edit: Wait, it doesn't show up until the last, right? It's such a mess I can't even remember now. lol)

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Man, Karai has had a really, really rough time on the big screen. Three movies in a row she's been maligned.

2007, she gets smacked around and knocked out by April ****ing O'Neil. 2014 she does a whole lot of nothing, then "dies" in a truck collision on a mountain. 2016, it sounds like she de-ages 15 years and just does the whole lot of nothing part this time out? Damn.

I feel very bad for Minae Noji. Beautiful, beautiful woman and a picture perfect Karai. She was wasted on TMNT 2014.

Seriously a shame. She did a lot more in 2014 if that tells you anything. 2016... if I recall correctly, there is one tiny fight scene where she is immediately taken out with a chair. >.> Seems she was not only de-aged, but de-skilled.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

Hmm... I dunno, Bebop and Rocksteady are generally Shredder's lackeys, so they sort of still need him, imo. But I wish the film had revolved more around Krang's doings.

Technically, this is an alien invasion film... but how many alien invasion movies exist where everything is resolved before anything bad actually happens? I mean, at least bring some destruction to the city and/or world first. Give the Turtles a verified evil thing to stop and save the day, for which the citizens are grateful for the unknown heroes.

As it stands, they can't report on who got rid of it or how, so what does the average citizen know? "There was a weird thing in the sky... then by dinner it was gone." They wouldn't even know if it was actually dangerous to them.

When you think about it, OOTS wouldve been a completely different film if there was no Shredder, Karai, Baxter and it just stuck to Krang as the big bad.

Shredder in 2014 and 2016 felt like completely different characters so he might as well have been killed off at the end of the first film. That way, the movie wouldve not been dwelling with the treasure hunt plot which overshadowed the actual invasion.

It wouldve started out like this: Krang invades earth but the turtles must stop him and the two mutant hechmen he created: Bebop and Rocksteady.

Relatively simple plot compared to what we got.

Infact, when you really think about it: Brad Gerret Krang could have some pretty funny banter with B and R like the FW cartoon. He could shout stuff like "creatants!" And "incompetent idiots!" while Brian Tee Shredder didnt have that kind of personality.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

When you think about it, OOTS wouldve been a completely different film if there was no Shredder, Karai, Baxter and it just stuck to Krang as the big bad.

Shredder in 2014 and 2016 felt like completely different characters so he might as well have been killed off at the end of the first film. That way, the movie wouldve not been dwelling with the treasure hunt plot which overshadowed the actual invasion.

It wouldve started out like this: Krang invades earth but the turtles must stop him and the two mutant hechmen he created: Bebop and Rocksteady.

Relatively simple plot compared to what we got.

Infact, when you really think about it: Brad Gerret Krang could have some pretty funny banter with B and R like the FW cartoon. He could shout stuff like "creatants!" And "incompetent idiots!" while Brian Tee Shredder didnt have that kind of personality.

I don't know if all of that sounds a lot worse but it definitely doesn't sound one iota better.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I don't know if all of that sounds a lot worse but it definitely doesn't sound one iota better.

As a film, atleast its better to have a very simple plot (alien invades earth, defeat alien) rather tha have alot of moments slapped together with the main plot point (alien invasion) at the very end.

[Peter Palmer]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Man, Karai has had a really, really rough time on the big screen. Three movies in a row she's been maligned.

2007, she gets smacked around and knocked out by April ****ing O'Neil. 2014 she does a whole lot of nothing, then "dies" in a truck collision on a mountain. 2016, it sounds like she de-ages 15 years and just does the whole lot of nothing part this time out? Damn.

We may not see eye-to-eye very often when it comes to TMNT (or life, from the sounds of it), but I agree with you on Karai's treatment. She was VERY highly skilled in the original Mirage comics, sent in to clean up Shredder's mess. Mirage and the Tournament Fighters game were really the only platforms that showed Karai for the force she was, possibly being even more skilled than Shredder himself.

It seems that most versions since then have adopted the Father/Daughter angle with Shredder/Karai, so I think that might be here to stay. She showed reasonable skill in 2007, but no version of Karai should ever be beaten in physical combat by April. As others have said, she was completely useless in the Bay movies. May as well have been another henchman.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Peter Palmer

We may not see eye-to-eye very often when it comes to TMNT (or life, from the sounds of it), but I agree with you on Karai's treatment. She was VERY highly skilled in the original Mirage comics, sent in to clean up Shredder's mess. Mirage and the Tournament Fighters game were really the only platforms that showed Karai for the force she was, possibly being even more skilled than Shredder himself.

It seems that most versions since then have adopted the Father/Daughter angle with Shredder/Karai, so I think that might be here to stay. She showed reasonable skill in 2007, but no version of Karai should ever be beaten in physical combat by April. As others have said, she was completely useless in the Bay movies. May as well have been another henchman.

I've gone on and on about this before in other threads, but it's truly baffling to me that more fans -- particularly female fans -- aren't up in arms about this. As you said, in Mirage she was a leader, a grown woman (with an 18 year old daughter, to boot), an individual in charge of the entire Foot (not just the New York branch) who came to NY to clean up the mess after Saki's death. Every universe since then, she's been Shredder's daughter and some kind of underling, constantly looking for approval from him while getting smacked around by the Turtles or others... as if TPTB can find no place for Karai unless she's attached at the hip to a "stronger" male character.

Kind of infuriating. Less that TPTB keeps finding new and equally questionable ways to do that with her, but more that it doesn't appear to bother much of anyone.

[Peter Palmer]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

I don't understand why people think obscurity is such a bad thing. Probably 50% of all stories I enjoy are obscure or "niche."

I enjoy the IDW comics and the 2012 cartoon. I really enjoyed the 2k3 series and the 2007 movie.

I enjoy seeing a lot of artists at conventions convey their personal vision of the turtles.

I like walking into stores and seeing the turtles plastered over everything like they were in the late 80's/early 90's.

I enjoy sharing the franchise with my young sons and watching them enjoy it the way I did when I was young.

All of that would not exist if the turtles were relegated to an obscure comic title in the 80's.

Sure, I enjoy the original Mirage stuff probably best of all, but I also get a lot of enjoyment out of the new stuff coming out. The quality varies from great to poor, but I love that it's coming out. I hope the turtles have the longevity and relevance of Mickey Mouse, Superman, etc.

[plastroncafe]

I still haven't seen the movie, so I can't really speak to anything that happens in it outside of what's in the trailer.

As for Karai, good luck waiting for her to get a decent representation.

[Peter Palmer]

Originally Posted by Wildcat

My only complaint would be is this Shredder supposed to be the one from the first movie? It can't be but it's funny they make no mention of anyone taking his place. It's just...Shredder is back!

I guess if you wanna stretch your suspension of disbelief you could say this new replacement Shredder came around and got beat before the events of OOTS. We just never saw that happen.

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

Yeah, no offense to the actors, but the lack use of both Shredder and Karai kind of made the change pointless. In addition to no explanation for Shredder (which would have taken 10 seconds to explain on film), most annoying to me is that they pretty much just turned Karai into a Barbie doll who, for the most part, just stood around.

I'm still not 100% clear...what exactly were you guys wanting explained?

Are you guys wanting an explanation for the change in his look between movies? Or is the assumption that he died in the 1st movie and he's inexplicably back in the 2nd?

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Peter Palmer

I'm still not 100% clear...what exactly were you guys wanting explained?

Are you guys wanting an explanation for the change in his look between movies? Or is the assumption that he died in the 1st movie and he's inexplicably back in the 2nd?

I'm guessing both, though probably moreso how we got from a bald, heavily scarred older Japanese guy to the suave villain from Tokyo Drift. Quick flashback or bit of dialogue about taking a bit of ooze to heal from his injuries (but just before the police grabbed him) would have worked. About Karai, some throwaway comment about, "My daughter was near death... I had my men give her some, too."

Though it really doesn't make any sense to me why they would even bother recasting Shredder and Karai at all. Brian Tee isn't a "name." Was it really important for kids to see a somewhat younger Shredder in there? It doesn't sound like either Karai or Shredder were even doing any heavy lifting in the movie.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Peter Palmer

I enjoy the IDW comics and the 2012 cartoon. I really enjoyed the 2k3 series and the 2007 movie.

I enjoy seeing a lot of artists at conventions convey their personal vision of the turtles.

I like walking into stores and seeing the turtles plastered over everything like they were in the late 80's/early 90's.

I enjoy sharing the franchise with my young sons and watching them enjoy it the way I did when I was young.

All of that would not exist if the turtles were relegated to an obscure comic title in the 80's.

Sure, I enjoy the original Mirage stuff probably best of all, but I also get a lot of enjoyment out of the new stuff coming out. The quality varies from great to poor, but I love that it's coming out. I hope the turtles have the longevity and relevance of Mickey Mouse, Superman, etc.

I'm not equating "obscure" with "Mirage only and nothing else ever happened."

I'm looking at the franchise as it is right now; if we weren't getting another cartoon (ugh), and if we were never getting another movie, and the IDW comics only made it another few years before ending... so what? It was a great ride (mostly downhill, from a certain point of view). Shows don't have to still be on the air to introduce your kids to them. The power of YouTube and DVDs is not to be scoffed at.

If the material coming out is worse and worse, obscurity is better. People stumble onto "obscure" stuff all the time. It's what friends and family are for. "Dude, read this." Hell, coworkers can serve that purpose, too. "How was your weekend?" "Badass, man... read this book!"

Obscure media is not unavailable media.

[plastroncafe]

It's also not usually media that currently turning a profit.
So it's kind of unlikely that tmnt will find its way back to obscurity for a while.

And then when it does, and gets popular again, it'll get ruined when they try to make it mass market appealing again.

See: Fraction's run on Hawkeye.

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by Peter Palmer

I'm still not 100% clear...what exactly were you guys wanting explained?

Are you guys wanting an explanation for the change in his look between movies? Or is the assumption that he died in the 1st movie and he's inexplicably back in the 2nd?

Yes, the change of actor. It would be one thing if they changed him with someone still in the same age-range, but shredder became a lot younger; younger than Eric Sachs who he was, as stated in the 2014 film, "like a father to."

He went from presumably an old man (albeit one curiously very capable in a robo-Shredder suit) to being in his upper 30s. Little bit of a stretch. (I know, I know, April in the old films changed, but the second actress is at least a believable replacement.)

Though they never mentioned Shredders name. It wouldn't have taken much to suggest that the Shredder in 2014 is maybe the father of 2016 Shredder.

I never assumed Shredder necessarily died in the first, since he was shown to move, but it would not have taken much effort or screen time to suggest in 2016 that he was injured and the old guy retired the position to his son, Saki.

It would have also given Shredder his own reason to actually hate the Turtles this time and want revenge, if the former Shredder was injured. Or later died from injuries if it went that route.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I've gone on and on about this before in other threads, but it's truly baffling to me that more fans -- particularly female fans -- aren't up in arms about this. As you said, in Mirage she was a leader, a grown woman (with an 18 year old daughter, to boot), an individual in charge of the entire Foot (not just the New York branch) who came to NY to clean up the mess after Saki's death. Every universe since then, she's been Shredder's daughter and some kind of underling, constantly looking for approval from him while getting smacked around by the Turtles or others... as if TPTB can find no place for Karai unless she's attached at the hip to a "stronger" male character.

Kind of infuriating. Less that TPTB keeps finding new and equally questionable ways to do that with her, but more that it doesn't appear to bother much of anyone.

If I had to guess, there are probaly far more fans and writers who have watched the 4Kids show than those who read any Mirage stories featuring Karai (or any Mirage stories, period).

When you consider that, can you really blame them? Most of those fans are just used to the daughter/underling version, so they don't question it. The writers mostly only know of that version and that it's the version more people are familiar with, so they write her accordingly.

4Kids is the lense through with the Mirage stories are perceived in popular culture. Not saying that's a good thing, just that it shouldn't be unexpected.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by neatoman

4Kids is the lense through with the Mirage stories are perceived in popular culture.

People should stop using it. It's fallacy.

[Peter Palmer]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

I'm not equating "obscure" with "Mirage only and nothing else ever happened."

I'm looking at the franchise as it is right now; if we weren't getting another cartoon (ugh), and if we were never getting another movie, and the IDW comics only made it another few years before ending... so what? It was a great ride (mostly downhill, from a certain point of view). Shows don't have to still be on the air to introduce your kids to them. The power of YouTube and DVDs is not to be scoffed at.

If the material coming out is worse and worse, obscurity is better. People stumble onto "obscure" stuff all the time. It's what friends and family are for. "Dude, read this." Hell, coworkers can serve that purpose, too. "How was your weekend?" "Badass, man... read this book!"

Obscure media is not unavailable media.

I think where we differ in thought is how we view turtle media trends. It's been a bit of a rollercoaster from the beginning. Highs during certain movies, shows, and comic runs, and lows during others. I don't think I'd say that things have been mostly downhill (where we differ). The comic has been pretty consistently enjoyable. I enjoy the show and it has seen pretty good success. The PD movies...ok, so it's not all sunshine and rainbows in turtle land, but we've received some good quality stuff in recent years, which in turn has turned more people on to the older stuff, which gives me more people to talk to about a hobby I like quite a bit. Again, that's something that wouldn't be attainable if things fell to obscurity long ago.

And it may be somewhat easy getting friends to get into things that you find interesting off a simple recommendation, but getting your kids interested is a different story. Kids tend to be into whatever is hot at the moment; whatever their friends are into.

My kids likely won't see the appeal of the '87 TMNT cartoon, Family Matters, Beetlejuice, or anything else I watched when I was little. That principle applies to why I never watched Happy Days, Three's Company, or Dallas. Could be quality shows, but my friends had no interest, so I didn't either. Kids tend to have herd mentality sometimes.

Maybe when they're older...

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

People should stop using it. It's fallacy.

They're most likely not going to, a lot of people seem like they would much rather watch a movie or a TV-show adaptation than go and read the book or comic it's based on, even if they ended up liking the adaptation they aren't interested in reading. "Walking Dead" and "A Song of Ice and Fire" had both been running for years before their TV adaptations, yet do ever hear anyone talk about the source material?

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by neatoman

"Walking Dead" and "A Song of Ice and Fire" had both been running for years before their TV adaptations, yet do ever hear anyone talk about the source material?

I know a ton of people talking about the source material of those and comparing. Plenty of "The books are so much better!" grumblers about GoT and a lot of people saying, "It's an odd example where the show is way better than the books." Walking Dead, plenty of fans out there. Before Negan debuted on the show Facebook was afire with comic fans getting super excited because of what he does in the comics.