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Old 05-11-2020, 03:05 PM   #1
rs_jr
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Fate of the Mirage TMNT

Hi

With Last Ronin coming out and I am not sure if they mentioned if it is in Mirage future of not?

Is it assumed that Turtle in Last Ronin is Don?

Did the Mirage comics ever mention or imply what happened to each Turtle?

I though Don was the last one around and did Mikey disappear into space or am I nit remembering things correctly?

Old Ralph ended up training new generation of Mutants but that was from the Palidum books i thinks.

Did Leo just die from old age, was it swan song?
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Old 05-11-2020, 06:58 PM   #2
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With Last Ronin coming out and I am not sure if they mentioned if it is in Mirage future of not?
No. It's supposed to be a potential future for almost any TMNT universe.

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Did the Mirage comics ever mention or imply what happened to each Turtle?

I though Don was the last one around and did Mikey disappear into space or am I nit remembering things correctly?

Old Ralph ended up training new generation of Mutants but that was from the Palidum books i thinks.

Did Leo just die from old age, was it swan song?
Check out "TMNT: Odyssey."
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Old 05-11-2020, 07:44 PM   #3
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Kevin has mainly implied Last Ronin is more Mirage than any other TMNT incarnations. Since the story outline was made during their Mirage days and Peter is getting credit I think that's safe to say. But he also says any readers or fans for Last Ronin can deem it for any TMNT incarnations' future too. We can't dwell on any of the dangling plots from Mirage volume 4 that I think your referring to rs_jr. We have no closure for that run. Last Ronin is really more of a "what if" or "elseworlds" for the turtles. Yes there were some Mirage shorts that had Don as the last turtle. Hard to say if it's Don for Last Ronin though.
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Old 05-11-2020, 08:31 PM   #4
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We can't dwell on any of the dangling plots from Mirage volume 4 that I think your referring to rs_jr. We have no closure for that run.
Is it Too Soon to say "F*ck Mirage Vol. 4 right in the ear", or can we just go ahead and say that, officially? Because I pretty much always said that, but with time and hindsight as factors, especially... yeah, f*ck that mess.
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Old 05-11-2020, 08:54 PM   #5
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Is it Too Soon to say "F*ck Mirage Vol. 4 right in the ear", or can we just go ahead and say that, officially? Because I pretty much always said that, but with time and hindsight as factors, especially... yeah, f*ck that mess.
Are you meaning in terms of ever seeing a conclusion, or in terms of even wanting a conclusion?

As for me, yeah the story is kinda messy. There's a lot of good individual elements, and the overall story is fairly interesting, but it takes far too long for anything to actually happen, and a lot of what does happen never seems to go anywhere productive. I feel like it's sort of like the Prequel Trilogy, which had a good story overall but lost a bunch of points in the actual execution. Though despite that, I still hope somebody finishes it one day. I do SO hate loose ends. When it comes to anything, I'd rather have a bad ending than no ending.
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Old 05-11-2020, 09:49 PM   #6
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This is Mirage TMNT Vol. 4, summarized in 20 seconds.



BUT, I'll go into far greater depth because that's what I do.

I stopped expecting or caring about any kind of satisfactory conclusion very quickly because it was a rambling, meandering mess from A-to-G. I say "A-to-G" because it was perfectly obvious that "Z" was never gonna f*cking happen! And they didn't even pretend to get close, either.

I could pull anything out of thin air, like "April The Time-Traveling, Roach-F*cking Magical Drawing", but that's a well-flogged horse. The whole Volume was just a gigantic exercise in wasted potential that went nowhere, circled back, then went even more "nowhere" than before.

I just said this to someone the other day, but most of Vol. 4 could have just been done as solo mini-series for various characters... which they later did, anyway. Here's a basic tip: If your story has become SO disconnected that you need four simultaneous solo mini's to actually move things even two measly inches forward, plot-wise, then you've completely lost sight of what's important. And charging four bucks a pop during a recession was absolutely brilliant considering that inside the book, nothing ever happened. And then when something did happen, like Splinter dying, it had all the dramatic weight of someone announcing they were gonna go take a leak. Just nothing. Totally didn't feel like a total waste of my time and money, seriously. Not at all.

For me, Vol. 4 was a mix between "the print version of Ambien" and "Chuck Austen writes better f*cking comics than this and he's CHUCK AUSTEN." I can't remember anything truly, sincerely good past the first issue; just "Meh" and "WOW, that's awful." Like, if you told me that Peter Laird was secretly an alien who had no understanding whatsoever about human emotions, and how to either display or manipulate them, I would totally, totally believe you. I'm sure he's a very nice guy and I'm grateful for what he initially helped create with the TMNT, but good Lord, his writing is as dry and flavorless as a Saltine-and-Rice Cracker sandwich. I know it was his passion and "his vision", but if you're gonna have the audacity to charge $4 a shot during an economic downturn, "your vision" better have some goddamn sizzle or else you're just jerking off.

And I don't especially enjoy paying to watch people jerk off, either literally or metaphorically. But that's what Vol. 4 was. "Peter Laird jerks off for 30-something issues, then gets bored, sells the property, and then goes to take a nap, thus rendering the entirety of Vol. 4 completely f*cking pointless."
-----------------------

All of that said, though, I too would love an ending, even though I didn't like the series. Because I, too, hate unfinished business and stories that don't get to conclude. And frankly, I'd settle for a bad ending. The series wasn't good, so nothing could really do much to significantly "damage" it retroactively. A good ending that ties the entire Mirage saga together in some satisfactory way would be ideal, but also unlikely and I'd settle for literally any ending. Because ANY ending would at least give Vol. 4 a reason to exist, whereas otherwise, it really has none. Outside of, "It allowed Tales of the TMNT Vol. 2 to exist, which was about 100x better than Vol. 4 in every single possible way."

In summation: Mirage TMNT Vol. 4 is definitely, absolutely not even close to being the worst comic I've ever followed. Not even close. It's not even "bad", per se. But it's definitely one of the ones that most made me feel like a total moron for ever caring about it, because I went into it wanting to love it and was given no reason to even care about it. I "did my part for The Franchise" and gave Pete my money; in return, ALL I got was a giant pile of paper, ink, and staples, and very little else.

Tales Vol. 2 was awesome, though.
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Old 05-11-2020, 10:12 PM   #7
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Yeah to me the TMNT Vol.2 and Vol. 4 series were the slow paced stories. The good issues/main narrative of Vol. 1 and Vol. 3 from Image were the stories with better pace. I clearly think Kevin and Peter complimented each other working together. But on their own its really a mixed bag. Even the initial solo issues in the number 12,14,15,17,18 shows them in that light. Kevin was the action/choreography guy and Peter was the sci-fi/laid back guy. Them writing stories since they weren't really comics pros shows when they work solo. Together they compliment each other. No editor guiding or training them since they were Mirage themselves. Maybe they'd be better writers or storytellers if they had a guided hand in those days? Just my thoughts.
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Old 05-11-2020, 10:42 PM   #8
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That's all pretty spot-on. Especially the individual weaknesses of Kevin and Pete and how their collaboration served well to shore up each of their shortcomings. Individually, they're both pretty crummy from different angles. I don't think either of them is a particularly "good" writer. I just think they each have a lot of interesting and good ideas, but they, themselves, maybe aren't the best ones to execute those ideas.

Like, it's a commercial medium. You have to present people with a story worth paying money to read or else you're cheating them. I know Vol. 4 was Pete's personal and uncompromising vision, and I can respect that, but for what it ended up being... Geez, man, that could've been a free webcomic or something, theoretically. That book tread water like a drowning Labrador. Don't make people pay twice the contemporary rate of an average comic book unless you're gonna at least TRY to razzle-dazzle 'em.

Lots and lots of people are creative, and lots and lots of people are great writers, and lots and lots of people have good ideas. But not all people in any or all of those groups should necessarily be the one who decides what gets to make the Final Cut of the product you ship out the door. Like, they should have lots of input, yes, but editors exist for a reason; that reason generally being that most writers and other creatives become so attached to and invested in their work, they lose sight of the fact that their work maybe isn't going to sell for one reason or other, and if you're charging money for a product, you have to "sell" it, as in force people to care.

I mean, look at Grant Morrison, for example. He's a guy with a lot of talent and a ton of good-to-great ideas, but how "readable" and comprehensible his stories are generally comes down to who his editor is on any given project. And with NO editor? Holy SH*T, man, do not let this man run around unfiltered, because that way leads to madness. And he's great! He's one of the best writers to ever write for comic books. But he needs supervision, and probably medication.

Neither Eastman nor Laird is within a mile of being a "Grant Morrison"-caliber writer. So to say "They probably would've done a lot better if they'd A. Kept collaborating, and B. Had someone to tell them when their ideas either sucked or simply weren't reader-friendly," is pretty much a statement of absolute fact.

I mean, just for example... Okay, sure, you can say, objectively and factually, "April's Secret Origin is definitely something that NO TMNT fan ever could have guessed at or imagined!" And that's true. It's a unique idea. And no one WOULD ever have guessed at or imagined that story ever unfolding. Because it's a unique idea, but also a terrible and stupid one, especially the way it was presented. Like we REALLY needed to be told that April got to be a roach and eat bile and f*ck other bugs because, y'know, how else could she go back in time and witness her own creation as a magical drawing, right? I mean, in GOOD comic books, the character's usually just an intangible phantom, or something, but hey, I guess that's been done to death, so we get April The Time Traveling Roach. That's "better". And April being a magical sketch is totally a great idea that doesn't reek of "Too Much F*cking LSD In College, Pete" what-so-f*cking EVER.

Absolutely any editor at any "legitimate" comic book company would have sat Pete down and explained to him in about 37 words why that sh*t wasn't going to the printer, and that would have been the end of it. But y'know, when you're The Boss, nobody's gonna tell you that your ideas are terrible. That's why people should generally not be in charge of editing their own work, especially if they're the ones signing the paychecks.
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Old 05-11-2020, 10:43 PM   #9
Sophie Campbell
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I love TMNT vol. 4!!!
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Old 05-11-2020, 11:14 PM   #10
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Weren't we three issues away from concluding volume 4?

IDW brought back GI JOE though they got Hama.

Do you guys think if they launched a new monthly Tales volume 3 and a bimonthly TMNT mirage vol 5 making it 18 issues per year would do good as the GI JOE RAH did?

Especially if they bring back Lawson, Talbot, Dooney, Murphy and Eastman.
Though not the biggest fan of Morrison he can write street level grittiness and sci-fi.

side question:
Are the IDW color classics ( vol 3 coming out soon) collecting every Mirage issues including Fugatoid and any short stories in publishing release?

Also we need a Sophie Campbell Radical issue
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Old 05-11-2020, 11:34 PM   #11
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Here's the digital version of the "regular" edition of "Odyssey":

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1otlfrl2tu...Small.pdf?dl=0
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Old 05-11-2020, 11:53 PM   #12
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I love TMNT vol. 4!!!
Sometimes I want to go back and read it again.

Instead, I touch myself for a while but go to bed without finishing, denying myself the satisfaction or closure of reaching climax. Then I toss and turn and fall asleep annoyed and unfulfilled.

Because it's more or less the exact same thing. Just, y'know, extremely literally.

This is fun. I am having a good time.

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Here's the digital version of the "regular" edition of "Odyssey":

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1otlfrl2tu...Small.pdf?dl=0
I love how strong your pimp hand is, brother. I love you. Y'know, within reason.
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Old 05-12-2020, 01:54 AM   #13
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Yes, have Odyssey already in physical form.

I mainly want a regular Mirage TMNT series running monthly or bimonthly.

Ideally Peter and Kevin would be co supervisors but doesn't look like Peter is coming back to regular comic schedule any time soon.
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Old 05-12-2020, 03:59 AM   #14
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I enjoy the fate of the Mirage characters being sort of ambiguous. I get such a thrill out of seeing those melancholy glimpses into the future. The little bit of info we have to go off of stokes the imagination. A lot of the "short stories" are good at this.
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Old 05-12-2020, 10:48 AM   #15
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Yeah, and that's well and fair. I myself don't much like it when they do Superman or Batman stories which present "Official Endings" to their journey, for example, because I feel like it limits storytelling by setting a predetermined endpoint that has to be built towards. I don't necessarily need to know how Bruce Wayne's gonna die and have that story be set in stone, or whether Superman's gonna be alive in the 30th Century, or whatever. There's some fun in not knowing and being able to just imagine all the different possibilities. Kingdom Come, for example. One of my favorite DC stories ever. Should it be canon? Oh, Lord no. And neither should "Dark Knight Returns", no matter how many Batman fans insist otherwise.

But I feel like Mirage Vol. 4 could have had ANY ending at all and it would have improved the entire series just by virtue of that. It didn't necessarily need to "close the book" on Mirage TMNT, and definitely didn't need to explicitly explain how the saga would end for everyone, but it at least could have done more than just gotten up and left in mid-sentence.

It's a like a guy running a marathon and deciding 2/3s of the way through it that he'd rather go play ping-pong. Why did you even show up, man? At least finish what you start.
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Old 05-12-2020, 11:14 AM   #16
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Very late to party but is there any way to get a hard copy of odyssey?
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Old 05-12-2020, 11:17 AM   #17
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Old 05-12-2020, 11:45 AM   #18
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Guess online will have to do... wasn’t expecting it to be over 100 bucks
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Old 05-12-2020, 11:57 AM   #19
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I guess I don’t really want s definite ending I just want the story to move forward.

Finish volume 4 and launch after it a volume 5 and a Tales volume 3 and continue the mirage universe on a regular schedule.
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Old 05-12-2020, 12:14 PM   #20
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Yeah, and that's well and fair. I myself don't much like it when they do Superman or Batman stories which present "Official Endings" to their journey, for example, because I feel like it limits storytelling by setting a predetermined endpoint that has to be built towards. I don't necessarily need to know how Bruce Wayne's gonna die and have that story be set in stone, or whether Superman's gonna be alive in the 30th Century, or whatever. There's some fun in not knowing and being able to just imagine all the different possibilities. Kingdom Come, for example. One of my favorite DC stories ever. Should it be canon? Oh, Lord no. And neither should "Dark Knight Returns", no matter how many Batman fans insist otherwise.

But I feel like Mirage Vol. 4 could have had ANY ending at all and it would have improved the entire series just by virtue of that. It didn't necessarily need to "close the book" on Mirage TMNT, and definitely didn't need to explicitly explain how the saga would end for everyone, but it at least could have done more than just gotten up and left in mid-sentence.

It's a like a guy running a marathon and deciding 2/3s of the way through it that he'd rather go play ping-pong. Why did you even show up, man? At least finish what you start.
Yeah, I'd agree with this. I think Volume 4 is sort of it's own story that deserves to be wrapped up, despite how far (or not) it reaches into the future of the Mirage timeline.
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