What do you think about different skin-colored TMNT?

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Rooish

I still don't get why everyone is so insistent they are red eared sliders. They never as baby pre mutated Turtles look like red eared sliders. Nor do they currently. It was just something Steve Murphy made up one time. And he made up a lot of things.

http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot....ask-pl-10.html

"To which species or sub species of testudines do the TMNT belong? My understanding is that they were red eared sliders, but in recent IDW books they have been called terrapins and box turtles, (even though they were drawn with flippers). As IDW isn't really cannon - i'd like to hear your take!
b) Are all four turtles of the SAME species, from the same clutch, and if not how do they differ?

Peter Laird: I'll answer these two together. First, I have no firm idea what species the Turtles are. Kevin and I never thought that deeply about this particular aspect of the characters. I think we just assumed they were your classic pet shop turtles -- and I think those are red-eared sliders, usually. Second, whether all four of the Turtles are from the same species or clutch of eggs… well, see my answer to the first part."

Yes, there's the Murphy revelation in the comics flat out that they're red-earred sliders. But coupled with Laird's comments and the fact that we see them as red-earred sliders in the original Steve Barron TMNT movie (which is supposedly so faithful to Mirage), it seems fairly a given. And I'm fairly certain I've been both Laird and Eastman pipe that the Turtles were intended to be brothers both in function and genetically. The only exception was NT:TNM.

[Jester]

So....you get that from, "I dunna, never really gave it that much thought..."

[Commenter 42]

They were RES in the 1990 film pre-mutation, and PDMT. If you look at the anatomical poster in Donnies lab on the Nick show, it appears to be a RES.

So, just a few more examples beyond that pannel with Donnie from Mirage.

I think Eastman called them box turtles, and they were called box turtles in IDW, but had flippers, and Sacks referred to them as box turtles, even though they used RES in the shots.

Retractable claws are stupid, as is the hind toe/claw.

[Rooish]

Originally Posted by Jester

So....you get that from, "I dunna, never really gave it that much thought..."

Ha that's what I saw him saying too! It's like the other eternal questions, are the turtles blood related and what's the age order, where Kevin and Peter just did not care and only after much pressuring and questioning came to any belief system. Kevin can't even remember which turtle has "always" been his favourite.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

Retractable claws are stupid, as is the hind toe/claw.

I'd say those things sound stupid to me now, but had they been established and developed from the start we'd probably be singing a different tune now. Given the Mirage mutagen seemed to be more about "hyper-evolution" than any kind of a human DNA mix, I could buy that they might get retractable claws and hind claw as such.

[Cryomancer]

They would be cool if they were there to be natural ninja tools for them. Like they used the claws as climbing tools and the feet would let them "stand" upright on poles and stuff by wrapping around them, or maybe even hold a weapon.

That's one of those things that is almost never mentioned, how being turtles actually helps them being ninjas. Hell the movies might have had the most of that out of anything, since they crushed enemies with their shells at least once. Other than that all I can think of is head-retracting and that was pretty much always a joke and is the most biologically dubious of their potential turtle "moves". I can't even recall a moment where them being shorter/smaller than a human was particularly advantageous.

[sdp]

I'm indifferent about it. I like and agree with both sides of the arguments. On the other hand I never actually think of the turtles as biological brothers.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by <TmNtRoX-1997>

I'm indifferent about it. I like and agree with both sides of the arguments. On the other hand I never actually think of the turtles as biological brothers.

I've never doubted it. And it's been implicitly stated by TPTB for eons now.

And it'd be pretty weird if one pet shop suddenly, inexplicably, adopted 4 baby red earred slider hatchlings of precisely the same dimension and size all simultaneously. And they were from different Mama Turtles. To suggest otherwise really only suits one mileau... NT:TNM, where TPTB decided all of the Turtles needed to be trying to have sex with Venus DeMilo every episode.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I'd say those things sound stupid to me now, but had they been established and developed from the start we'd probably be singing a different tune now.

That, I can agree with.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Given the Mirage mutagen seemed to be more about "hyper-evolution" than any kind of a human DNA mix, I could buy that they might get retractable claws and hind claw as such.

I only think it's stupid because felines are the only animals with retractable claws.

Retractable claws are cool as a concept for a reptilian monster, or an imaginary creature idea - something based purely on fantasy.

The back claw/retractable claws/teeth/3 fingers/ they all look really cool, until you try to explain it.

I still love the designs (early Mirage especially) for what they are, so you're not wrong, I am a hypocrite, sure.

I don't know, I still feel that if it's not chelonian or human, it has no business being in the design? yep, Crazy town!

I also like to look up research that validates the possibility of the premise. How could Splinter learn Ninjitsu? Articles like this one
concerning rodents, human DNA, and brain development seem to validate the idea.

[Kendamu]

I don't really care one way or the other. Similar to how Eastman and Laird didn't think that deeply into what exact species of turtle our Turtles are, I don't really think that deeply about their skin tones nor do I think that they exist primarily because some industry people think that the audience is stupid.

I think getting worked up over it is pretty dumb, actually, but I'm no authority on what you should and shouldn't lose sleep over.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

I think they were drawn with flippers in IDW, IIRC...

It's really hard to find good information on the subspecies of sliders beyond the ones you've mentioned.

I think, barring the sort of breeding that intentionally drives high color sliders, or caramels, (both of which are not often found in the wild precisely due to their high visibility, and thus not surviving through to adulthood) You'd have to admit, to the likely hood of drastic variation is small, especially if we take time and place into account (15 years ago from today, or as far back as 15 years prior to 1984.) Hybridization wasn't, to my knowledge, a big thing. Sure, the parents may have been two sub sliders...I'll give you that, but I again defer to Andrews point; NONE of this was the reason behind the different tones of green, it all exists for marketing purposes, nothing more, and in the larger sense is very much a statement about the audience.

I get what you and Candy mean about variation - I see it, but to the non-Herp, when you see a mature clutch together, it looks like this:
http://www.redearedslider.net/wp-con...ar-sliders.jpg
We can tell them apart, but will most people?
And the emerald green is long gone. They don't look like this as teens:
http://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/...9af2fc18ab.jpg

the toy variation is more like this:
http://www.theturtlesource.com/turtl...COMPARISON.jpg

Which you'd be hard pressed to find in the average clutch together.

Well, since they DID come from a pet shop, it's far more likely that the breeders were trying for color variations, as the more rare ones sell for higher. Incidentally, that sort of breeding has been around for a lot longer than you'd think. I know of at least one instance (a python, mind, but he was around for a LONG time, even before the TMNT!) who has been in high demand as a breeder for YEARS due to his size and notoriety. (His name was Excalibur and he has been in at least two movies, and numerous magazines and other media.) Though he LOOKED like any other ball python, his genes included color mutations for lavender, albino, and yellow varieties, piebalds, and even some pure white. His offspring (and theirs) have gone for upwards of 2-6 thousand $. Not kidding. Turtle (and fish!) breeders have been doing the same thing for decades now. I tried it myself with bettas back when I was a kid. And this was around the same time as TMNT were big, mind you.

And while we're on the subject, pet shops USUALLY get their stock from only one or two local breeders of a particular species, so what they have is more than likely all from the same genetic stock. Which means they are quite likely to all have the same parents if they are shipped together. (Because any breeder knows that it's a BAD idea to put larger/older animals in with smaller/younger ones, due to competition and the occasional urge to cannibalize.) So the TMNT very likely WERE all from the same mother! (Though it's possible she mated with more than one male.)

Originally Posted by neatoman

If we're going to go by what RES turtles look like in real life, we can clearly see a number of flaws in the design of the TMNT within the Mirage continuity:

1. Why do they have teeth?
2. Why do they have three thick fingers and two thick toes instead of five claws on each hand and foot?
3. Why are their tails so thick?
4. Why isn't their skin striped?
5. And why don't they have red markings on their heads?

Pointing out the lack of accuracy to the RES species to argue against different skin colors doesn't really work when the general design isn't very accurate to begin with.

I think I can answer at least the tails question- they're males. Male turtles have longer and thicker tails, to house the- well, you know. So humanoid turtles = big thick tails- if they're as anatomically proportionate as I think they are....

As for the red marks- how do we KNOW they don't have them? The original comics were black and white, and in the movies they are always covered on that part of the head by the bandanas. True, the cartoons and IDW don't have them, but they COULD if the artists chose to. I think that would actually be kind of cool to show that they still have them. I've seen some fan-art that has them, and it looks really stunning visually.

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

You're absolutely correct, except that when asked on numerous occasions, Laird has always said that they were indeed RES, so it's an issue for sure. He's also said that they didn't have much in the way of reference material when they were in the creation process.
Laird's general response to the number of fingers, seems to be "we thought it would be neat and goofy!"

Sooo, I guess you could take it up with them?

I've always pretty much known they were RES, just from the first movie. It was obvious even then. (Though those were some darn big "babies" in the film, I give you that! So was Tokka, if we're to believe that was a "baby" snapper!)

Originally Posted by Rooish

I still don't get why everyone is so insistent they are red eared sliders. They never as baby pre mutated Turtles look like red eared sliders. Nor do they currently. It was just something Steve Murphy made up one time. And he made up a lot of things.

Why? Oh, I don't know- maybe THIS? VVV

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

They were RES in the 1990 film pre-mutation, and PDMT. If you look at the anatomical poster in Donnies lab on the Nick show, it appears to be a RES.

So, just a few more examples beyond that pannel with Donnie from Mirage.

I think Eastman called them box turtles, and they were called box turtles in IDW, but had flippers, and Sacks referred to them as box turtles, even though they used RES in the shots.

Retractable claws are stupid, as is the hind toe/claw.

Ditto to all that. Sachs was an idiot, And IDW never specifically called them ANY kind of turtles. Though the flippers was probably just either artistic license (based on pictures of baby sea turtles rather than baby RES), or just easier to draw than claws.

While I don't like the idea of retractable claws, I DO like the idea that they might keep them filed down to avoid their nails growing INTO claws. (And thus accidentally injuring each other or themselves with them.)

[Candy Kappa]

Originally Posted by Rooish

I still don't get why everyone is so insistent they are red eared sliders. They never as baby premutated Turtles look like red eared sliders. Nor do they currently. It was just something Steve Murphy made up one time. And he made up a lot of things.

They are shown to be RES in both the first movie and the Platinum Dunes movie, although they are referred to as Box Turtles, the baby turtles shown in the footage are RES. They are also confirmed as RES by Donnie in Mirage in one of the Tales issues pin-ups where he finds a turtle in the sewers and talks to it. And the video game Out of the Shadows displays the Turtles with strong RES/Pond Slider markings

and, basing their pre-mutated looks on real Turtles don't really works in the other versions where their looks are not defined, cause being cartoon animals drawn by a animators layman idea off what a turtle is, they don't resemble any actual real turtle species, they just look like cartoon turtles.

Even the baby turtles drawn with flippers in IDW is highly questionable at best, as Eastman's original drafts do not have the baby turtles with flippers, it's all entirely the artists rendition. And as an add on, the baby turtles have a tank extremely ill fitted for sea turtles which could make them die prematurely and ruin Stockman's work, and sea turtles are illegal to keep, which also could ruin Stockman's work.

And to add for the irks about IDW's baby turtles, Mikey is spotted eating salad on land, RES don't produce saliva and can only eat while being in water, if that's the same for all semi-aquatic and sea turtles I don't know. Although, Mikey could be preparing to drag the salad leaf down to the water so he can properly eat it.

So it's strongly supported that they are RES, although Diamondbacks or Common Box Turtles is a alternative as well, something Donnie was musing in the Nick cartoon.

[Jester]

Yeah...most live action depictions of the baby Turtles, even the god-awful musical VHS tapes, use Red Eared Sliders. The Barron original, Turtle Tunes/Christmas, PD, if they are shown as babies, they are Sliders.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

...
So it's strongly supported that they are RES, although Diamondbacks or Common Box Turtles is a alternative as well, something Donnie was musing in the Nick cartoon.

What episode did that happen in? How would that work? They're not green at all!

Just for those who don't know what a Diamondback is (and to save you the Google trip):


Box turtle is possible, but soooo much uglier! Sliders are much more attractive.
Hard to find green box turtles through Google. Must be rare? I don't know much about them, or the Diamondback.



I think it's pretty safe to say they're neither of these.

[Candy Kappa]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

What episode did that happen in? How would that work? They're not green at all!

Never Say Xever, I think.

[Andrew NDB]

Might have been "cooller" if each of the Turtles had been a different kind of turtle. I'm surprised there's been no new incarnation of TMNT that's done that.

My vote:

Raphael: Common Snapping Turtle
Donatello: Box Turtle or Herman's Tortoise
Michelangelo: Razorback Musk Turtle
Leonardo: Red-Earred Slider

[Ninturtle]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

What episode did that happen in? How would that work? They're not green at all!

Just for those who don't know what a Diamondback is (and to save you the Google trip):
http://cdn1.arkive.org/media/16/162A...n-portrait.jpg

Box turtle is possible, but soooo much uglier! Sliders are much more attractive.
Hard to find green box turtles through Google. Must be rare? I don't know much about them, or the Diamondback.

http://euclid.nmu.edu/~jophilli/east...turtle23.1.jpg

I think it's pretty safe to say they're neither of these.

Box turtles are indeed uglier which explains why the bay turtles are referred to as box turtles.

[Candy Kappa]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Might have been "cooller" if each of the Turtles had been a different kind of turtle. I'm surprised there's been no new incarnation of TMNT that's done that.

My vote:

Raphael: Common Snapping Turtle
Donatello: Box Turtle or Herman's Tortoise
Michelangelo: Razorback Musk Turtle
Leonardo: Red-Earred Slider

Although a nice idea, it just seems a bit off.

There's a pretty good artist that have done realistic takes on the TMNT where he did a line-up where the Turtles where of different turtles.

http://onetruth.deviantart.com/art/N...boys-454208883

[sdp]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I've never doubted it. And it's been implicitly stated by TPTB for eons now.

I still never really thought about it and even knowing they're supposed to be biological siblings I view them more as adopted siblings. But it's not something I really think about.

And they were from different Mama Turtles. To suggest otherwise really only suits one mileau... NT:TNM, where TPTB decided all of the Turtles needed to be trying to have sex with Venus DeMilo every episode.

Actually that is far from truth since only in the East Meets West movie/episodes/pilot is it ever "hinted" and even then the turtles just show slight interest when they see her, this is before being revealed that it's their "sister" and there's only one scene later with Leo where he mentions how they're not actually biological siblings, but that scene is far from "romantic" or showing much interest in her. I mean I do think they mentioned it in case they ever took that somewhere but in the rest of the 26 episode season it's never even slightly hinted and yet people take 2 minutes of dialog and make a point out of it.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Might have been "cooller" if each of the Turtles had been a different kind of turtle. I'm surprised there's been no new incarnation of TMNT that's done that.

My vote:

Raphael: Common Snapping Turtle
Donatello: Box Turtle or Herman's Tortoise
Michelangelo: Razorback Musk Turtle
Leonardo: Red-Earred Slider

I'm surprised the new movies didn't do something like that or even the IDW book. It'd be interesting to see but I'm not sure I'd like it too much.

[Powder]

Box turtles aren't ugly!