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Old 05-29-2018, 04:20 PM   #341
AquaParade
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Originally Posted by Andrew NDB View Post
Who's saying "desperate"? Their public intent has always been to return everything "back to normal" by the conclusion so as to fit back into the Mirage box. I'm not aware that this intent has ever changed.

Now, should they give two craps about tying stuff in the conclusion into Vol. 4 plots or subplots? Of course not. I don't think they've ever picked up an issue of Vol. 4 and I don't imagine that would change, even leading up to working on their conclusion... and they don't need to. It's enough to show how the status quo is more or less restored.
I'm not using this to bait you into an argument, but what is it you prefer about having it tie back into Volume 4 as opposed to going its own way?

I know the creators have hinted, so far, that this, for some reason, is their intent, but I'm assuming you have your own reasons. Just curious. Maybe there's an element I'm not seeing.
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Old 05-29-2018, 04:36 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by AquaParade View Post
I'm not using this to bait you into an argument, but what is it you prefer about having it tie back into Volume 4 as opposed to going its own way?
It's not about Volume 4 (which didn't even exist and wasn't a blip on the horizon when Vol. 3 ended prematurely), it's about returning the pieces to the way they found them... which was always the intent from Gary and Frank. At least, that's what they've always said. You can say, "I want them to go crazy now that they have 3 additional issues to do so!" and so do I, but that shouldn't mean, "I want them to kill April O'Neil, or Casey Jones, or otherwise something CRAZY that would fly in the face of the Mirage universe after it because SCREW Volume 4!" Because that would go against their intent from day one.

Or maybe I'm not understanding what you're talking about wanting to see them do.
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Old 05-29-2018, 07:56 PM   #343
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Sure, but I'm talking around the possibility of them continuing the series past the conclusion.

Continuity should be used as a tool for good, not something to weigh you down. You are limited, creatively, when you have a pre-determined destination.
Can you work around this? Sure, Solo just did....I guess.
But for what? So we can come on this forum and say "actually, volume 3 IS canon", despite Peter Laird confirming that, actually, no it's not, in regards to the story he is telling.

No, it's already carved out it's own place in TMNT mythology. Let it do it's own thing with unlimited freedom, if it is to continue. Even if it's not, don't let some desperate attempt to tie into a story that ignores it weigh you down. (Now I do think I heard the creators mention their intention to clean up/heal the turtles, so that will probably happen. Not too late to change course though)

This is a comic that was known for taking chances. You never really knew what was going to happen. A lot of that would be lost when you can just go "Well, in volume 4, we know this happens, so..."
Again, it can be done, but it's not worth it.
That all kinda happened the moment a volume 4 was announced.
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Old 05-29-2018, 09:46 PM   #344
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Canon is the most important thing in life, if it's not going to be canon then I'm going to lose interest. This is not an "Elseworlds" TMNT comic.
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Old 05-29-2018, 10:50 PM   #345
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Canon is the most important thing in life, if it's not going to be canon then I'm going to lose interest. This is not an "Elseworlds" TMNT comic.
Why? You enjoy plenty of TMNT interpretations that aren’t connected or tied into the same canon.
Whether or not it’s an “Elseworlds” depends on who you ask. The conversation has shifted more towards what it could or should be, should it continue, than what it is. If we’re trying to be technical, it most certainly is an “elseworlds” TMNT in relation to Mirage. But ya know, during its inception and actual creation, it wasn’t. There’s obviously two sides to that truth.

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That all kinda happened the moment a volume 4 was announced.
What all “kind of all happened”?

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Old 05-29-2018, 11:06 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by AquaParade View Post
Why? You enjoy plenty of TMNT interpretations that aren’t connected or tied into the same canon.
Whether or not it’s an “Elseworlds” depends on who you ask. The conversation has shifted more towards what it could or should be, should it continue, than what it is. If we’re trying to be technical, it most certainly is an “elseworlds” TMNT in relation to Mirage. But ya know, during its inception and actual creation, it wasn’t. There’s obviously two sides to that truth.
To me, it all come down to intent.

1. Image TMNT/"TMNT Vol. 3" was always created to be a direct continuation of Mirage TMNT Vol. 2. Always, this wasn't even ever a muddy issue. It was lauded as such in every press release from www.ninjarturtles.com, and even its own lettercol, both from Mirage and from Gary and Frank. There are editor's notes throughout the books referencing Mirage Vol. 1 and Vol. 2 issues.

2. Image TMNT/"TMNT Vol. 3" was under the full purview of Peter Laird. There are many lettercols where Gary talks about notes from Laird on this or that, every issue... Laird was fully involved in the creative process.

3. Image TMNT/"TMNT Vol. 3" in its later days when sales dipped was kept afloat by Peter Laird's own dollars.

4. When it was over, at every turn, Gary and Frank said that had they been allowed to, TMNT/"TMNT Vol. 3" would have returned the Turtles to the status quo to fit back into Mirage (which most probably correctly assume to mean... all injuries/conditions were to be reversed). That doesn't mean that all the new characters they created were to die (although I kind of killed a lot/most of them off in my thing, with their blessing), or that they were to work to precognitively anticipate future stories that they had no idea would exist in Mirage... but those were the basics.

That years later Peter Laird said in Vol. 4's lettercol he didn't feel right about massaging Vol. 3 into Vol. 4 in any visible way doesn't take away any of that intent from the beginning or end of Vol. 3. And not to be cold, but it seems to mean even less now a decade after Peter Laird sold away the right to even determine that anymore. Truth be told, Laird could have directly and easily trampled on Vol. 3 within Vol. 4... but he didn't.

Last edited by Andrew NDB; 05-30-2018 at 10:52 AM.
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Old 05-30-2018, 12:59 AM   #347
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Canon or not, it's a good story, and I think that's all that really matters (though I personally consider it canon, regardless of Laird's statements).
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Old 05-30-2018, 11:17 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Andrew NDB View Post
To me, it all come down to intent.

1. Image TMNT/"TMNT Vol. 3" was always created to be a direct continuation of Mirage TMNT Vol. 2. Always, this wasn't even ever a muddy issue. It was lauded as such in every press release from www.ninjarturtles.com, and even its own lettercol, both from Mirage and from Gary and Frank. There are editor's notes throughout the books referencing Mirage Vol. 1 and Vol. 2 issues.

2. Image TMNT/"TMNT Vol. 3" was under the full purview of Peter Laird. There are many lettercols where Gary talks about notes from Laird on this or that, every issue... Laird was fully involved in the creative process.

3. Image TMNT/"TMNT Vol. 3" in its later days when sales dipped was kept afloat by Peter Laird's own dollars.

4. When it was over, at every turn, Gary and Frank said that had they been allowed to, TMNT/"TMNT Vol. 3" would have returned the Turtles to the status quo to fit back into Mirage (which most probably correctly assume to mean... all injuries/conditions were to be reversed). That doesn't mean that all the new characters they created were to die (although I kind of killed a lot/most of them off in my thing, with their blessing), or that they were to work to precognitively anticipate future stories that they had no idea would exist in Mirage... but those were the basics.

That years later Peter Laird said in Vol. 4's lettercol he didn't feel right about massaging Vol. 3 into Vol. 4 in any visible way doesn't take away any of that intent from the beginning or end of Vol. 3. And not to be cold, but it seems to mean even less now a decade after Peter Laird sold away the right to even determine that anymore. Truth be told, Laird could have directly and easily trampled on Vol. 3 within Vol. 4... but he didn't.
I always appreciate well-reasoned appeals to authorial intent. While I confess there's a part of me that would love for the Image-era continuity to just go wild into its own thing, I find your post persuasive as to the original tone of the Image-verse.
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Old 05-30-2018, 12:13 PM   #349
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I seriously doubt the writers are going to go crazy with it, especially now that the franchise is managed by IDW and their scripts still have to be approved by Nickelodeon. And even if they never read Vol. 4 they're likely well aware the main cast at least is all alive and well (at least at the start, Splinter does pass away in Vol. 4 )
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Old 05-30-2018, 06:33 PM   #350
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Quite pleased with the colors of TMNT: UL #1. It really makes a difference. Since it was purely B&W with no duotones/shade, it really lifts it up to enjoy the art even more. About canon, since its such a long time gap between Vol. 3 and Vol. 4, I'd like to think it counts. There's nothing that disputes it either in Vol. 4. Like others have stated Vol. 3 was the only "Mirage tone" TMNT comic at the time and it takes place literally after if not shortly after Vol. 2. I'd like to think Vol. 3 is like Tales of TMNT, a gap of untold tales in between Vol. 2 and Vol. 4.
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Old 05-31-2018, 12:56 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by Andrew NDB View Post
2. Image TMNT/"TMNT Vol. 3" was under the full purview of Peter Laird. There are many lettercols where Gary talks about notes from Laird on this or that, every issue... Laird was fully involved in the creative process.

3. Image TMNT/"TMNT Vol. 3" in its later days when sales dipped was kept afloat by Peter Laird's own dollars.
I had no idea Peter Laird was that much involved in Volume 3.
Is there an interview or another source where his part in the creative process is mentioned?

Thanks!
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Old 06-01-2018, 03:38 PM   #352
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The dialogue is hilariously dated. Much like I remember about dialogue in 90s comics being.
I guess I'll like it then.
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Old 06-01-2018, 05:38 PM   #353
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It's happening. It's all colored, retitled "Urban Legends" and gets 3 brand new issues to conclude.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-long-unf...ing-1823171674
I'm very happy this is coming together. So will the conclusion allow the characters that might still belong to the Image universe to appear? Or will they be restricted to the reprints only? My memory is foggy but I believe a few characters who appeared were Erik Larson creations.
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Old 06-01-2018, 05:57 PM   #354
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They already announced all 23 issues will be reprinted. The Image characters/superheroes appear in like half the issues of the book, so there would be no way to even reprint this series in the first place if they didn't make a deal with Image.
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Old 06-01-2018, 06:04 PM   #355
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He's asking if they would appear in the 3 new issues.

I don't think any of those characters are relevant by that time in the story, they were just fun fodder for in-house crossovers at the time. That said, it'd be neat if the dragon showed up in one of the 3, he's had a fair amount of history with the turtles. I wouldn't count on that happening, though.
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Old 06-01-2018, 07:20 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by Nortock Diab View Post
I had no idea Peter Laird was that much involved in Volume 3.
Is there an interview or another source where his part in the creative process is mentioned?

Thanks!
Yep. Check out the lettercols of all of Vol. 3, particularly closer toward the end.
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Old 06-02-2018, 11:15 AM   #357
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It honestly just seems a shame to return everything to the status quo. There were lots of daring changes made and it seems kind of pointless to reverse them all.
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Old 06-02-2018, 11:20 AM   #358
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It honestly just seems a shame to return everything to the status quo. There were lots of daring changes made and it seems kind of pointless to reverse them all.
They were already healing by the end of the book. Raph's face was healing and Donatello was shedding more of the cyborg armor and lost the CPU A.I. as it progressed. The only thing that's a hard sell is Leo regaining the hand that got bit off, I kinda wish that never happened.
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Old 06-02-2018, 12:45 PM   #359
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They were already healing by the end of the book. Raph's face was healing and Donatello was shedding more of the cyborg armor and lost the CPU A.I. as it progressed. The only thing that's a hard sell is Leo regaining the hand that got bit off, I kinda wish that never happened.
I know that, but it seems like a cop out. Just let the storyline do its own thing. There are many different iterations of the TMNT and no reason to shove them all into the canon. The characters acted so OOC anyway at times. I'm not disagreeing that they were in fact going to restore to status quo, it just seems unnecessary to undo all the daring changes they made.
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Old 06-02-2018, 02:57 PM   #360
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I am still stoked to see these books coming back to comic book stores.

But to be honest: I would love the idea to let Vol. 3 replace TMNT Universe as a monthly book and not just end with #26.
I know that these three books are more than we could ever ask for, and am so thankful that IDW will do these reprints plus a conclusion.
But if I had to choose I would always go for the Vol.1-4 TMNT over the rest.
They could do 100 issues of the Imageverse and I would still be around.
Just like I am now 20 years later.
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