Pro Wrestling Discussion

[sdp]

I didn't care about any match enough to find a stream to watch wrestlemania, I did watch some highlights. The Undertaker match was fun for what it was. Asuka's match was fine, the Ronda match seemed better than it ever had the right to, she's not a good worker though, hope she gets better and doesn't let her hype get over her like it did in UFC.

[MikeandRaph87]

Originally Posted by dl316bh

Objectively, 'Mania was very good. Charlotte vs Asuka is the best womens match 'Mania's ever had, one on one or otherwise, the IC title match was fire, the mixed tag blew everyones expectations away, just seeing Daniel Bryan wrestle again was wonderful and seeing Undertaker just straight up squash John Cena in three minutes like so much jobber was oddly delightful.

But man, that show was too. F***ing. Long. They lost everyone in the last hour and it wasn't just because the matches were eh. People were dead tired. Then there's Nak/Styles, which, sadly, was a good match with a dead tired crowd that didn't live up to expectations and ended just as it seemed to be getting into gear. Drop an hour from next years 'Mania. Not every title needs to be defended. Some just won't make it. Shouldn't make it, for the sake of keeping the crowd invested. I mean, hell, as much as the Usos didn't like being off all the prior 'Manias, it's not like that tag title match really helped them out.

I'm worried for Nak and Asuka both, now. Two Japanese stars, given the Rumble, and both lose. It kind of seemed like a turning point when they actually won those, because historically WWE's been garbage with treating them with any semblance of respect, save maybe Tajiri. Asuka had maybe the best match on the show with Charlotte and losing the streak allows more to play with in regard to character and story, but WWE's always had a habit of losing interest in wrestlers the second the undefeated streak gimmick dies. Plus, where does she fit in now? Does she get a rematch at the next PPV? Or does she stick with Raw, since she never seemed to make a full jump despite challenging Charlotte? Nak, meanwhile, had a match that underwhelmed, has blown three WWE title match opportunities and hasn't had a classic since moving up. The heel turn could work wonders for him, but when does he accomplish something?

The ending to Brock and Roman was great, but man, the match leading up to that? Just completely ridiculous. That building did not care. Plus, five F5 kickouts? Seriously? Most of the other big stars couldn't kick out of one. The Undertaker, once the strongest character at Wrestlemania, couldn't kick out of three. And they wonder why people hate Roman Reigns? Still, despite all that, it was satisfying to see Roman get got and with authority at that.

Great show that lost steam at the end.


Among other things. It has to be a little annoying that the story tried throwing him to the wolves to get the other guy a reaction and killed his finisher dead, only for the work to fail miserably. I'd probably be like "what the hell, do you even know what you're doing?"

I wonder what happens from here. The Universal title is billed to be defended at the "Greatest Royal Rumble" special. Do they have Brock just drop the belt there? His contract's supposed to be up. If so, who to? Or do you ride it out to Summerslam and have someone take the title there? They haven't said what the prize is for winning the GRR. Summerslam title match?

What is the story with Brock not dropping the title? Was it because everyone and their dog thought Brock was going to lose and leave the company so they wanted to surprise people and have him lose it at the next available PPV not concerned about Reigns being " coronated" specifically at Wrestlemania?

What's up with this No Way Jose character? Is he like a black Adam Rose?

What is with Sheamus's hair? Its even weirder than usual!

[AT-Man]

Do we now have to endure Brock for another full year?

I'm very excited about Shinsuke's heel turn. The way he kicked AJ around was brilliant.

Naomi is my favorite of the women's division, happy she won the battle royale.

[XERO]

Paige officially retires.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by XERO

Paige officially retires.

WHAT?! Really?

[MikeandRaph87]

Roman can't catch a break with the crowd after the Shield tease and how much Lesnar's despise and lack of loyalty. Lesnar has a new contract? Kayfabe or real?

It appears that the Greatest Royal Rumble is a repeat of Wrestlemania in many ways.

[sdp]

I now I'm a bit late on this but I watched the Woken Hardy v Wyatt match and it was great, Woken is nowhere near as good as broken Matt but it's still cool. I know it's a very divisive concept but I totally got in on it.

[dl316bh]

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

What is the story with Brock not dropping the title? Was it because everyone and their dog thought Brock was going to lose and leave the company so they wanted to surprise people and have him lose it at the next available PPV not concerned about Reigns being " coronated" specifically at Wrestlemania?

No one really knows. My best guess is another Wrestlemania 30 and 31 situation where they realized what they were doing wasn't working and they had to pull back. They went through with their plans anyway with 32 and it ended with boos so loud they had to mute crowd mics, 33 wasn't much better, to the point they immediately had to go into 'Takers seeming goodbye to stifle the reaction. That's two Wrestlemanias going out in a chorus of boos. They might not have wanted a third.

They may have even called an audible, because holy s***, that match was absolutely dying out there. The crowd was silent for most of the nearfalls. When they weren't, they were chanting "boring", "this is awful" and even for CM Punk, the latter of which has mostly gone away other than in Chicago. They were screwing with beach balls. The only time they came alive was when Brock got the three and they realized WWE didn't go with the match result everyone assumed was forgone. Silence is even worse than boos.

It was kind of notable that when Roman came out tonight, Joe hit him hard with the failure talking point and the crowds cheered and chanted "failure" at him. He's booked in a cage match for the title at Greatest Royal Rumble, so we'll see what they do from here. I absolutely wouldn't put it past Vince McMahon to book a title win for Roman in another country just so it isn't showered in boos, though that doesn't save him from the reactions on regular TV after that.

What's up with this No Way Jose character? Is he like a black Adam Rose?

Yeah, that's actually a pretty good way of summarizing it. He's pretty okay in the ring, so I suspect he'll be a decent midcarder. The gimmick's probably not taking him to any titles, though, so we'll see where he goes with the eventual change you know will happen down the line.

Originally Posted by AT-Man

Do we now have to endure Brock for another full year?

No way it goes that long. Brock's dropping the title at Greatest Royal Rumble at the earliest, Summerslam at the latest. I'm pretty sure of it. The question is who does it.

Roman is still, sadly, an option, though the way they seemed to de-emphasize his title shot at GRR and put immediate focus on Samoa Joe looking to choke the life out of him makes me think it's quite possible Roman's taking the L there too. Beyond him, though, there are only a couple credible challengers. Samoa Joe could easily be positioned that way if they want. He's tough, crowds love him and while he lost in a one on one match last year the angle booked him strong as someone who could absolutely choke Brock out if given the opportunity. Braun's your other lay-up option and maybe the more likely if they do back off from Roman. He's destructive, credible, he's manhandled Brock the other times they've wrestled and, like Joe, seems like he can beat Lesnar from the way he's been booked on the right night. It helps that he's super over with the crowd and has subtly shifted over time into a face. We still don't know the prize of the Greatest Royal Rumble; maybe a title match at Summerslam, which you can easily give to Braun or Joe to set all this up.

The only other guy with the credibility - and the only one with a clean win over post-return Lesnar - is Cena, but he's clearly in his twilight here-to-help-put-over-the-younger-guys career phase, so while one more title run to put him over Flair seems inevitable, I don't think they use Lesnar for that.

I guess we'll see.

I'm very excited about Shinsuke's heel turn. The way he kicked AJ around was brilliant.

I'm cautiously interested in cocky dickheaded heel Nakamura, but if he has a rematch at Backlash I really hope he takes the title, because I don't think you can really throw him another loss without really devaluing him. He already didn't look great after taking several losses to then WWE champ Mahal and only the Rumble win really helped restore him. Also, if he does get a rematch, I hope it's as good as we wanted the 'Mania match to be.

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

WHAT?! Really?

Yeah, she got to give her retirement speech on Raw tonight, like Edge and Daniel Bryan. Most of us who read the rumors kind of knew it was coming, with the fact that she was visibly not allowed to take bumps out there since that match shortly after her return put her out again, but we finally got confirmation tonight, fittingly in the place her main roster career started. That neck injury that kept her out for over a year was something she couldn't come back from, it turned out.

It's really sad, because at one point she seemed primed to be a leader in the new age of womens wrestling at WWE, but then the neck injury happened.

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

Roman can't catch a break with the crowd after the Shield tease and how much Lesnar's despise and lack of loyalty. Lesnar has a new contract? Kayfabe or real?

Real. It would have to be, since Lesnars old contract was up last night. Lesnar does this from time to time, tease leaving, so he can get favorable deals from WWE. He did it a year and a half ago right before the Summerslam where he punked Orton out. As I recall, the same thing happened right before Wrestlemania 31, where he re-signed again at the last moment. Divorced from all the annoying aspects, it's not exactly unsound business for him. Apparently this time he got free reign to fight in UFC again at the same time, at least that's the word going around.

As for the other stuff, I wouldn't even say Lesnar's despised. By a fair number of us online, yeah, a good number of us have tired of barely seeing the Universal title and his declining match quality. It hasn't really translated to actual crowds though. Not yet at least. Nothing saying that doesn't change at some point.

It appears that the Greatest Royal Rumble is a repeat of Wrestlemania in many ways.

Some matches will be. The Universal Title match, for example. But Joe's been added to the IC title redo, making it a fatal four way, and we don't know what the WWE title match will look like. I assume Nak is getting a rematch, but the question is if they use that for the GRR or save it for Backlash. That aside, the Raw tag title match is definitely going to be different, going off tonight. We'll see what the others look like. I suspect Jinder Mahal and Randy Orton one on one to use the rematch clause.

Originally Posted by sdp

I now I'm a bit late on this but I watched the Woken Hardy v Wyatt match and it was great, Woken is nowhere near as good as broken Matt but it's still cool. I know it's a very divisive concept but I totally got in on it.

I like the Woken stuff so far. I never caught the Impact version, because I sure as hell wasn't watching Impact just for that, but if what WWE's doing is in the same vein I can see why people liked it. It's different in a good way, which helps it stand out against everything else WWE - and I assume the same for Impact - does. Hopefully they go further with it. I assume they'll have a new program soon, probably after whatever they're doing as far as the tag titles go (I suspect Bray and Matt will be the team in the title match at GRR and even win it).

[ZariusTwo]

Well, it's Reigns vs Lesnar in Saudi at the Greatest Rumble so I expect the coronation to happen there, they're probably betting the crowd will be more enthusiastic and it allows them to make a bit of history too.

Good post-'Mania RAW...even the crowd did'nt really hijack it and behaved themselves. Great to see Authors of Pain called up, though they may have ditched Ellering in the process. No Way Jose will probably fizzle out and be on Main Event eventually, the dance thing didn't do much for Adam Rose.

Paige's retirement I didn't really care for, she's a terrible worker and cuts a horrible promo, plus she looks straight out of the Rocky Horror Picture Show with that ghastly amount of make up on.

Lashley looked great, hopefully he goes on a bit of a tear heading towards a programme with Lesnar or Reigns at Summerslam

Reigns complaining about another title shot makes no sense, but at least Joe's promo on him was good and the crowd were into it. Expect Joe vs Reigns at Backlash to be for the title.

[dl316bh]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Well, it's Reigns vs Lesnar in Saudi at the Greatest Rumble so I expect the coronation to happen there, they're probably betting the crowd will be more enthusiastic and it allows them to make a bit of history too.

It's possible - it would be hilarious for them to run to another country to find a crowd that won't boo his wannabe golden boy during the "coronation", despite him having like eight failed coronations so far - but I don't know. Something feels very... I don't know how to put it. Swervish? I took note that Roman was basically low key tinfoil hatting, which Joe called out. Plus, they already have a match with Joe lined up for literally a week later, which there is no time to suddenly change the stakes in and do anything with. Usually pro wrestling doesn't bring stuff like that in without something paying off, like somebody turning on a character or whatever. Plus how hard Joe hammered the "failure" talking point.

It could go either way. I could easily see Roman just winning and that being it. But I almost suspect something's happening during that match, like someone runs out and lights him up, letting Brock get the pinfall without making Roman lose clean a second time.

No Way Jose will probably fizzle out and be on Main Event eventually, the dance thing didn't do much for Adam Rose.

Jose's an okay wrestler from the little we've seen, so he might have a higher ground floor than Rose. Rose was all gimmick. A good gimmick at the time, but it could only take him so far. It didn't help Rose was killed stone dead by angles like the party pooper and the feud with the bunny. Jose's not winning any titles, but I could see him working fine as a guy who wins matches on Raw, but not against anyone important or for anything. The party guy gimmick has a ceiling.

Paige's retirement I didn't really care for, she's a terrible worker and cuts a horrible promo, plus she looks straight out of the Rocky Horror Picture Show with that ghastly amount of make up on.

I feel like I have to defend Paige a bit here. She was a great worker, but unless you watched NXT back in the days before and during her title reign you'd never know it. One thing that really, really sucked is that Paige came up in the tail end of the Divas era, before the great workers had been built and moved up, so she just ended up in the bog standard couple minute matches where you never had time for anything. Back then, the only person of worth to work with was AJ Lee, who was the best wrestler and character they had at the time but wouldn't compare favorably to what we have now. She stuck around for the beginning of the "Divas Revolution", but by the time the women were getting longer matches and the Divas title was being retired in favor of a new Womens championship, she'd been going down with the injuries that would cost her her career.

It's a lot like Emma. Emma was great... in NXT. On the main roster she never got to look like anything - hell, her opening storylines involved goddamn Santino and a girl snake sock, which she never escaped before being booted back down - and, frankly, she never recovered enough standing in the company to be given the opportunity to look good after the shoplifting incident.

[MikeandRaph87]

It seems no one outside of the WWE innercircle know about Brock's contract status.
https://www.cagesideseats.com/platfo...c-roman-reigns

[dl316bh]

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

It seems no one outside of the WWE innercircle know about Brock's contract status.
https://www.cagesideseats.com/platfo...c-roman-reigns

Yeah, no one seems to know for how long it is yet. I wonder when that will leak out. Meltzer's usually had word on things like this by now, but last I heard he doesn't have any WWE sources right now.

[XERO]

Originally Posted by dl316bh

Yeah, she got to give her retirement speech on Raw tonight, like Edge and Daniel Bryan. Most of us who read the rumors kind of knew it was coming, with the fact that she was visibly not allowed to take bumps out there since that match shortly after her return put her out again, but we finally got confirmation tonight, fittingly in the place her main roster career started. That neck injury that kept her out for over a year was something she couldn't come back from, it turned out.

It's really sad, because at one point she seemed primed to be a leader in the new age of womens wrestling at WWE, but then the neck injury happened.

And now fans are giving Sasha Banks the Goldberg treatment. As accidental as that was that caused Paige's career-ending injury, Sasha should've still taken consideration that Paige wasn't 100% yet, and probably never would be.

[dl316bh]

Originally Posted by XERO

And now fans are giving Sasha Banks the Goldberg treatment. As accidental as that was that caused Paige's career-ending injury, Sasha should've still taken consideration that Paige wasn't 100% yet, and probably never would be.

It's a little understandable, because while I like Sasha I'm not always super excited to see her wrestle thanks to the fact that she's a little loosey goosey in the ring, which isn't good for her or her opponent. Seriously, she scares the living daylights out of me sometimes. She had periods over the past two years where she took moves or landed in ways that had me thinking she already had or was about to break her f***ing neck. I'm afraid she's going to put herself out one of these days.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by dl316bh

No one really knows. My best guess is another Wrestlemania 30 and 31 situation where they realized what they were doing wasn't working and they had to pull back. They went through with their plans anyway with 32 and it ended with boos so loud they had to mute crowd mics, 33 wasn't much better, to the point they immediately had to go into 'Takers seeming goodbye to stifle the reaction. That's two Wrestlemanias going out in a chorus of boos. They might not have wanted a third.

They may have even called an audible, because holy s***, that match was absolutely dying out there. The crowd was silent for most of the nearfalls. When they weren't, they were chanting "boring", "this is awful" and even for CM Punk, the latter of which has mostly gone away other than in Chicago. They were screwing with beach balls. The only time they came alive was when Brock got the three and they realized WWE didn't go with the match result everyone assumed was forgone. Silence is even worse than boos.

It was kind of notable that when Roman came out tonight, Joe hit him hard with the failure talking point and the crowds cheered and chanted "failure" at him. He's booked in a cage match for the title at Greatest Royal Rumble, so we'll see what they do from here. I absolutely wouldn't put it past Vince McMahon to book a title win for Roman in another country just so it isn't showered in boos, though that doesn't save him from the reactions on regular TV after that.


Yeah, that's actually a pretty good way of summarizing it. He's pretty okay in the ring, so I suspect he'll be a decent midcarder. The gimmick's probably not taking him to any titles, though, so we'll see where he goes with the eventual change you know will happen down the line.


No way it goes that long. Brock's dropping the title at Greatest Royal Rumble at the earliest, Summerslam at the latest. I'm pretty sure of it. The question is who does it.

Roman is still, sadly, an option, though the way they seemed to de-emphasize his title shot at GRR and put immediate focus on Samoa Joe looking to choke the life out of him makes me think it's quite possible Roman's taking the L there too. Beyond him, though, there are only a couple credible challengers. Samoa Joe could easily be positioned that way if they want. He's tough, crowds love him and while he lost in a one on one match last year the angle booked him strong as someone who could absolutely choke Brock out if given the opportunity. Braun's your other lay-up option and maybe the more likely if they do back off from Roman. He's destructive, credible, he's manhandled Brock the other times they've wrestled and, like Joe, seems like he can beat Lesnar from the way he's been booked on the right night. It helps that he's super over with the crowd and has subtly shifted over time into a face. We still don't know the prize of the Greatest Royal Rumble; maybe a title match at Summerslam, which you can easily give to Braun or Joe to set all this up.

The only other guy with the credibility - and the only one with a clean win over post-return Lesnar - is Cena, but he's clearly in his twilight here-to-help-put-over-the-younger-guys career phase, so while one more title run to put him over Flair seems inevitable, I don't think they use Lesnar for that.

I guess we'll see.


I'm cautiously interested in cocky dickheaded heel Nakamura, but if he has a rematch at Backlash I really hope he takes the title, because I don't think you can really throw him another loss without really devaluing him. He already didn't look great after taking several losses to then WWE champ Mahal and only the Rumble win really helped restore him. Also, if he does get a rematch, I hope it's as good as we wanted the 'Mania match to be.


Yeah, she got to give her retirement speech on Raw tonight, like Edge and Daniel Bryan. Most of us who read the rumors kind of knew it was coming, with the fact that she was visibly not allowed to take bumps out there since that match shortly after her return put her out again, but we finally got confirmation tonight, fittingly in the place her main roster career started. That neck injury that kept her out for over a year was something she couldn't come back from, it turned out.

It's really sad, because at one point she seemed primed to be a leader in the new age of womens wrestling at WWE, but then the neck injury happened.


Real. It would have to be, since Lesnars old contract was up last night. Lesnar does this from time to time, tease leaving, so he can get favorable deals from WWE. He did it a year and a half ago right before the Summerslam where he punked Orton out. As I recall, the same thing happened right before Wrestlemania 31, where he re-signed again at the last moment. Divorced from all the annoying aspects, it's not exactly unsound business for him. Apparently this time he got free reign to fight in UFC again at the same time, at least that's the word going around.

As for the other stuff, I wouldn't even say Lesnar's despised. By a fair number of us online, yeah, a good number of us have tired of barely seeing the Universal title and his declining match quality. It hasn't really translated to actual crowds though. Not yet at least. Nothing saying that doesn't change at some point.


Some matches will be. The Universal Title match, for example. But Joe's been added to the IC title redo, making it a fatal four way, and we don't know what the WWE title match will look like. I assume Nak is getting a rematch, but the question is if they use that for the GRR or save it for Backlash. That aside, the Raw tag title match is definitely going to be different, going off tonight. We'll see what the others look like. I suspect Jinder Mahal and Randy Orton one on one to use the rematch clause.


I like the Woken stuff so far. I never caught the Impact version, because I sure as hell wasn't watching Impact just for that, but if what WWE's doing is in the same vein I can see why people liked it. It's different in a good way, which helps it stand out against everything else WWE - and I assume the same for Impact - does. Hopefully they go further with it. I assume they'll have a new program soon, probably after whatever they're doing as far as the tag titles go (I suspect Bray and Matt will be the team in the title match at GRR and even win it).

As an AJ fan, I feel kinda bad she retired before the REAL female wrestlers came in. I would have wanted to see her against Bliss and Charlotte

[dl316bh]

Carmella as Smackdown champ makes me kind of want to flip a table and walk off. Was hoping she'd fail.

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

As an AJ fan, I feel kinda bad she retired before the REAL female wrestlers came in. I would have wanted to see her against Bliss and Charlotte

I'm sorry we didn't get to see that, but I also think that, if it happened, she'd have needed to up her game to hang. She was the best of the lot in the Divas era, but that wasn't exactly a high bar, either. The talent crop now is so far ahead of the Divas era stuff you can't even see it in the rearview mirror.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by dl316bh

Carmella as Smackdown champ makes me kind of want to flip a table and walk off. Was hoping she'd fail.


I'm sorry we didn't get to see that, but I also think that, if it happened, she'd have needed to up her game to hang. She was the best of the lot in the Divas era, but that wasn't exactly a high bar, either. The talent crop now is so far ahead of the Divas era stuff you can't even see it in the rearview mirror.

Whoa, so Carmella finally cashed in? What was the match before she busted in (sorry, not at home).

I do believe AJ would have had to step up. Blind faith and admiration would like to believe she would be able to.

[dl316bh]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

Whoa, so Carmella finally cashed in? What was the match before she busted in (sorry, not at home).

Wasn't a match. The Iconic Duo debuted and are Charlottes lunch, leading Carmella to cash in. I kept hoping, like, Asuka would run in and kill/destroy Carmella to keep Charlotte champ for a rematch or Charlotte would catch her in a submission, but it wasn't to be. The worst female wrestler on the roster, Natalya excluded, is now Smackdown champ.

I do believe AJ would have had to step up. Blind faith and admiration would like to believe she would be able to.

For what it's worth, I think she had the potential to, but unfortunately we'll never know for sure. Just pointing out that as good as she was, it was on a curve and her character work was always better.

[sdp]

Originally Posted by dl316bh

I like the Woken stuff so far. I never caught the Impact version, because I sure as hell wasn't watching Impact just for that, but if what WWE's doing is in the same vein I can see why people liked it. It's different in a good way, which helps it stand out against everything else WWE - and I assume the same for Impact - does. Hopefully they go further with it. I assume they'll have a new program soon, probably after whatever they're doing as far as the tag titles go (I suspect Bray and Matt will be the team in the title match at GRR and even win it).

Ah really? I thought everyone into wrestling had already been into it, I think I got into it rather late since I'm not that into wrestling and only watch from time to time when I'm nostalgic.

But I kept hearing about this Broken Matt thing over and over in different places until I finally gave in and checked it out and I thought it was the dumbest thing ever. But I kept hearing people talk about it and talk about it so I checked it out to see why it was so awesome that I kept hearing about this in non-wrestling related conversations and as much as I watched I just didn't get it until it just clicked and loved it.

I think I got into it a bit late but it was still before the ultimate deletion which was their big event at TNA. If you're interested I think most of the stuff is on youtube and legally, that's how I watched it. Also the few things I"ve seen of woken Matt has been through youtube but both companies realized that to get this gimmick over they needed internet hype so most of the stuff is available.

[Krutch]

I don't get the Woken stuff. I don't hate it, but I don't understand how people can go crazy for it while at the same time absolutely hate the House of Horrors match WWE put out a little while back.