DC Relaunching AGAIN

[Leo656]

See, when they wiped out Matrix Supergirl, the explanation given was, "It takes far too long to explain her origin and it's far too complicated for a character who should be simple."

You could now literally apply that to everything they've done for the past several years. And people wonder why fewer people read comics, and particularly, DC comics.

[MikeandRaph87]

It reminds me on a smaller scale how Lucius Fox had a rebellious son named Timothy and a younger daughter Tanya. Now they dont exist and now he has a wannabe vigilante son Lucas and a daughter Tamara.

Commissioner Gordon had a son named Tony, a secret government agent who died then does not exist, but James Jr, a psychopath is in his place.

I suppose Chris and whatever the boy's name is who is now Zod's son is the latest example.

[ZariusTwo]

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/11...jonathan-kent/

[ZariusTwo]

DC have cancelled all orders for Batman and the Outsiders. It will no longer becoming out in December, and will be resolicited later, possibly march

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/11...man-outsiders/

[MikeandRaph87]

https://www.cbr.com/tag/nightwing/

The History of Dick and Wally's friendship.

[ZariusTwo]

Another new interview with Bendis

https://www.cbr.com/brian-michael-be...ics-interview/

On Lois and Clark

CBR: Well, so much ink has been spilled over the Lois and Clark marriage and how Superman works in that context. You've been able to play with their relationship and add tension and drama to it without it being a question of marital strife. Was it hard to crack that story open?

Bendis: It's actually one of those things where I was able to draw so much from the work of other Superman writers like Pete [Tomasi] and Dan [Jurgens], who had established the family and what they wanted and also what problems were forming. I come in almost like a family therapist and say, "Here's where we are. What do we need to get to the next step?" And people who read #1004 saw Lois literally look at the camera and say "We're not breaking up," but they still are asking if they're breaking up. And it just goes to show how fragile a relationships like this can be. I'm so grateful that people have passion about this, but my goal isn't to break them up. I think they're one of the most passionate, loving couples ever. I just want to get back to that.

On the return of Jon

CBR: Shifting to the other side of the Superman coin, Jon is coming back from space in January's issue of Superman. It seems odd to say this because you've really been on the books less than a year, but you've been able to have so many issues out that his return does feel like an event and not just something that happened after the snap of a finger.

Bendis: And we're parents, so the idea of missing your kid for an hour is enormous. I really think we did a good job reflecting how much Superman misses him. Even though it's only been a few issues, he never stops thinking about him. So when Jon comes back – and I did promise in Action #1000 that he'd be back soon – he's coming back with a lot of story. A lot of story.

CBR: You also get to play with this fun concept of a superhero kid because you don't have to let them age in real time or at all, but you can ramp it up as well if you want. It reminds me of some of the stories that have been done with Franklin Richards over the years.

Bendis: My inspiration was how devastating it would be to lose those formative years. I mean, I hate it when my kids go to summer camp. They love it there, but they go away for a few weeks and I don't get to experience anything they experience. They come back and they look older! You have this experience when you drop your kid off for camp, and you pick them back up three weeks later, and they have a mustache. This is the superhero version of that. Clark's going to have missed out on something really important to Jon, and it's going to hurt. It's going to hurt bad. Hurting Superman has to be a big deal.

[ZariusTwo]

Doomsday Clock#8 was leaked by the Russians yesterday

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Doomsday Clock#8 was leaked by the Russians yesterday

Was it good? Asking for a friend who is totally not me.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Was it good? Asking for a friend who is totally not me.

It involves Superman a lot more, and it all goes to hell for him by the end, so at least things are starting to escalate now.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Was it good? Asking for a friend who is totally not me.

It's "Doomsday Clock", of course it's good. C'mon.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Leo656

It's "Doomsday Clock", of course it's good. C'mon.

Fair point. Let me rephrase:

Do I get more Marionette and Mime goodness?

[MikeandRaph87]

I was a little thrown with Doomsday Clock#8. When did Jason Rusch bow out of the Firestorm matrix? He was one of four B-list heroes replaced for sake of diversity 2005/2006, but like the others the previous incarnation returned in some form. Brightest Day made classic fans happy reviving Ronnie Raymond, but kept diversity with Jason, who was the subconscious advisor. When did Martin Stein reform Firestorm with Ronnie?

[Leo656]

I wouldn't be shocked if it was just a goof, or something they're aware of but don't think warrants a great big explanation.

I don't have the answer to your question, but I know in past cases of things like this, the writer is told "Just wing it" and not worry too much about continuity. Especially if it's Johns or Morrison; if Johns wants to use "Classic Firestorm" in his Big Story that's gonna sell a ton of books, then what he's doing trumps whatever else has happened with the character recently, and they can explain it or not bother.

A similar case was when "Classic Aquaman" showed up during Final Crisis, despite Arthur being dead around that time, and someone else taking up the mantle briefly in "Sword of Atlantis" or whatever. But Morrison wanted to use Classic Aquaman for a scene, so they told him "Go ahead, we don't need to explain it", and there it was. They DID later just hand-wave it and say, "It was Aquaman from another Earth", but the truth is it was implicitly supposed to be the "real" one, and they simply didn't want to have to go into details about bringing him back from the dead or why he was wearing his Super Friends outfit.

Same deal here. Casuals more likely know Ronnie and Stein as Firestorm, so they just shrug the rest off rather than explain it. A little bit annoying but eh.

[MikeandRaph87]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I wouldn't be shocked if it was just a goof, or something they're aware of but don't think warrants a great big explanation.

I don't have the answer to your question, but I know in past cases of things like this, the writer is told "Just wing it" and not worry too much about continuity. Especially if it's Johns or Morrison; if Johns wants to use "Classic Firestorm" in his Big Story that's gonna sell a ton of books, then what he's doing trumps whatever else has happened with the character recently, and they can explain it or not bother.

A similar case was when "Classic Aquaman" showed up during Final Crisis, despite Arthur being dead around that time, and someone else taking up the mantle briefly in "Sword of Atlantis" or whatever. But Morrison wanted to use Classic Aquaman for a scene, so they told him "Go ahead, we don't need to explain it", and there it was. They DID later just hand-wave it and say, "It was Aquaman from another Earth", but the truth is it was implicitly supposed to be the "real" one, and they simply didn't want to have to go into details about bringing him back from the dead or why he was wearing his Super Friends outfit.

Same deal here. Casuals more likely know Ronnie and Stein as Firestorm, so they just shrug the rest off rather than explain it. A little bit annoying but eh.

I know the original Firestorm appeared at the end of the Super Friends run,but upon research I see that Jason was the face of Firestorm while Ronnie was in his head and his dimwitted football coach,but JL: Action went back to the original. As for the comics I cannot find anything after Brightest Day. There was that major plot point with Ronnie and Jason that was dropped, while Deathstorm was rewritten as a CSA member. It was just odd seeing Ronnie talking to Stein without an explanation. Unlike the Aquaman example this is a major plot point not just shown for a page with no dialogue.

I do remember that page with Aquaman and explanation now that you mentioned it. It was weird how Aquaman was killed off off-panel and no one acknowledged it then suddenly he was a black lantern so he had to be dead. Had a major hero ever been killed off so quietly?

That reminds me...Mera was focused on after she witnessed Garth killed by black lanterns. That means all of the Titans have died except Dick Grayson who has suffered everything else including a faked death. To stretch it further all of the original sidekicks generation have been killed except for Dick Grayson and Barbara Gordon. This adds pre-crisis Supergirl and Barbara with the other five.

Another reminder too, Hawkman was killed off twice in under a year. He was a victim of Final Crisis and then in Blackest Night he shows up again fully healed only to die? Editorial did a poor job of keeping a causality list! Hawkman gets so little respect even editors forget he was killed to the point he is killed again a few months later!

[Leo656]

They sure do love killing Hawkman.

He's died so many times that in my head he can't possibly be of any real importance. Which is a shame, because he looks cool.

[ZariusTwo]

Green Arrow ending with Issue 50...and look, they've gone and made Dinah and Ollie fall out again. Almost all of the couples reintroduced in Rebirth are gone now save for Lois and Clark and Barry and Iris

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/12...oes-in-crisis/

[MikeandRaph87]

How long were they allowed to be a married couple for? DC made a big deal out of in 2007 and I tihnk it was before New 52 it was swept under the rug?

[Leo656]

I empathize greatly with the writers, though. Like, I absolutely don't think super-heroes can never get married or have kids - try and separate Lois and Clark and I WILL cut you, bitch - but it makes things a lot harder to write.

Plain and simple, anyone being a super-hero is making a supremely bad decision. It's not gonna end well, for them or anyone they care about. The only thing worse, realistically, is bringing innocent women and children into it. It is SUPREMELY irresponsible, any way you look at it.

Like I'm a big fan of 70s/80s/early-90s Batman, for example - the REAL one, before he got his back broken and came back as "Indomitable Bat-God" - and chief editor Denny O'Neil always insisted that on his watch, Bruce Wayne would NEVER get married or have kids, or else he'd have to stop being Batman. Reason being, as a child of violence, who's motivated primarily by trauma, he would never, ever risk putting his own family through what he went through. Dick and Jason and even Tim were different, because A, they technically were only adopted family, thus blurring the line a bit, and B, they were already 10-13 and experienced similar trauma, in which case, Bruce took it upon himself to try and "rescue" them from it by giving them a direction and purpose. But if it were his own child, who he'd raised from birth, he'd never put them in a position where they'd lose their father to violence, or worse, become victims themselves of The Joker or some other lunatic.

O'Neil said many times that to him, the idea of Bruce being a husband or father and still continuing to be Batman would be completely irresponsible, and I really find it tough to argue that point, with Batman or ANY super-hero. That's most likely why a lot of writers don't want to work on stories like that; it's a very "fanfic" kind of idea that falls apart under scrutiny.

Not saying, "You can't do it, it can't be done," but I don't think it works MOST of the time and shouldn't really be expected or indulged too often.

[ZariusTwo]

Yeah, even the continuities that do go with a married Bruce often end on tragic notes, either the character dies (Selena in Earth 2, or both in the N52 Earth 2) or the wife gets bored and leaves (Selena in the Injustice games)

Selena's rational for leaving Bruce in Batman#50 didn't sit well with folks largely because it felt like a shallow regression in her own character, refusing to commit to him because she feels his rage and trauma is what helps save lives, King said she and Bruce would always be able to heal each other's wounds in interviews so this really felt like he was mandated to say something different. I still think Bruce and Selena will be endgame at some point, but it'll probably take removing Didio from power completely before that happens.

Reportedly, not even the main editor of the Superman books likes Lois and Clark married, hence why Bendis is allowed to write some b.s long-distance "modern marriage" version in the build to Doomsday Clock where Lois is made out to be the worst mother of the year by becoming a recluse more fixated onwriting than her own family.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I empathize greatly with the writers, though. Like, I absolutely don't think super-heroes can never get married or have kids - try and separate Lois and Clark and I WILL cut you, bitch - but it makes things a lot harder to write.

Plain and simple, anyone being a super-hero is making a supremely bad decision. It's not gonna end well, for them or anyone they care about. The only thing worse, realistically, is bringing innocent women and children into it. It is SUPREMELY irresponsible, any way you look at it.

Like I'm a big fan of 70s/80s/early-90s Batman, for example - the REAL one, before he got his back broken and came back as "Indomitable Bat-God" - and chief editor Denny O'Neil always insisted that on his watch, Bruce Wayne would NEVER get married or have kids, or else he'd have to stop being Batman. Reason being, as a child of violence, who's motivated primarily by trauma, he would never, ever risk putting his own family through what he went through. Dick and Jason and even Tim were different, because A, they technically were only adopted family, thus blurring the line a bit, and B, they were already 10-13 and experienced similar trauma, in which case, Bruce took it upon himself to try and "rescue" them from it by giving them a direction and purpose. But if it were his own child, who he'd raised from birth, he'd never put them in a position where they'd lose their father to violence, or worse, become victims themselves of The Joker or some other lunatic.

O'Neil said many times that to him, the idea of Bruce being a husband or father and still continuing to be Batman would be completely irresponsible, and I really find it tough to argue that point, with Batman or ANY super-hero. That's most likely why a lot of writers don't want to work on stories like that; it's a very "fanfic" kind of idea that falls apart under scrutiny.

Not saying, "You can't do it, it can't be done," but I don't think it works MOST of the time and shouldn't really be expected or indulged too often.

With Bat/Cat though, I was kinda hoping they'd go the route of Superior Spider-Man or DickBats, where they DO get married, and we get some good stories out of it, but eventually XYZ changes things back or some major DC Crisis resets them to not being married. After all, Selina knew Bruce was Batman before the New 52 made her forget.

Like the fans were complaining about Dock Ock being Spider-Man, but c'mon, it's Spider-Man. I knew they wouldn't kill him off for good. The fans should have stopped bitching and enjoyed the ride until the status quo came a-callin'.

Same with Bats and Cats. I say let them marry and enjoy the new dynamic before some 2020 Crisis or whatever reverts things back to normal.