Official Episode Discussion S5 Ep 04: End Times

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Aaronardo

You answered your own question. None of it matters. There's no real reason for any of it. Bare bones, this episode is a story about Kavaxas winning control and unleashing his wrath and the Turtles stopping him.

What do you think supporting characters are for? I'd rather see Leatherhead than not see him. I'd rather see them give an explanation why Fishface left before the final battle than nothing at all. I liked all the fight scenes and chaos going on. I don't know why the hell you keep saying, "bare bones?" As you said, the general plot had to deal with them raising Shredder and Kavaxas trying to break out of Tiger Claw's control.

But then, suddenly, we bring Splinter in for no reason (keep in mind, Kavaxas is releasing the underworld, and where Splinter went to at the end of the episode definitely was not the underworld, so why he was even there in the first place is beyond me) and somehow that's important, because it takes up a couple scenes.

WTF, you're asking why Splinter was even there? Bringing Splinter back was one of the more interesting parts of the episode, tied everything together with both Shredder's fate and him saying goodbye properly to his family, and also being able to help out a bit as a spirit during his fight with Ho-chan. Why the hell wouldn't you want him to be there?

Then, we have the thing with Fishface and his rather uneventful complete 180 turn, AND we get a buttload of disconnected exposition about the minions from him that could've easily been inserted in any other episode.

I don't see any problem with this at all. Fishface always cared more about regular urban crime than any otherworldly stuff.

Then there's that whole mess with Shredder. He served no real purpose in this story at all. He could've not been brought back at all and the story really wouldn't be different in any way. Someone must've realized this, so they just lazily inserted all the little specific things Kavaxas needed to do to unleash his power (instead of, I don't know, building it up over the last three episodes), with resurrecting an evil warrior applying to Shredder. I can't be the only one who thought this came clean out of nowhere and just came off as pure lazy.

The whole point was to revive Shredder. Of course zombie Shredder didn't do all that much, he wasn't suppose to. The build up was all about stopping him and Kavaxas, and Shredder had some last few moments of glory and then realized he didn't belong in the living world and took the dragon with him back to the netherworld. Sometimes I have no idea what you're actually expecting, some lengthy discussion of Kavaxas power or a Zombie Shredder running around Manhattan for 20 episodes?

As for the 2k3 series, the difference between that and this is that was simply bringing in Leatherhead for seemingly no reason, which is fine seeing as how it didn't impact the final product. Every single thing I have just mentioned (obviously, not including randomly bringing Leatherhead in, although it was still lazily handled) negatively impacts this episode in some significant manner.

Yes they did, Leatherhead was constantly brought in during the 4kids episodes for nothing but "extra muscle" for fights, the same exact thing the Nick cartoon did here. Go watch the Season 3 finale of 4kids, and tell me Leatherhead's role isn't exactly the same.

[MCLeo28]

There were too many events crammed into one episode that it simply didn't do this episode any justice at all which became more evident when the Netherworld Invasion paled in comparison to previous invasions we've witnessed in the past, Shredder was egregiously underplayed, the Shredder cult were ill-involved during this entire conflict, and this episode overall only delivered lackluster fighting scenes at best.

Frankly, I was elated to watch this episode in the morning only to have been disillusioned with the pacing of this episode and how everything was seemingly slapped together at the last minute. For an episode of this scale, more was to be expected and they simply failed to deliver. Kavaxus is even stronger than Super Shredder yet I felt this entire Invasion paled in comparison to Season 1's.

This episode was decent and while this will be a polarizing opinion, I honestly found this to be one of the worst episodes of this entire series. I will say that there were absolutely no issues with the plot, only the delivery and execution of everything that ensued. Had this been a 1 hour finale, then this likely would've been one of the best in the series.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by MCLeo28

This episode was decent and while this will be a polarizing opinion, I honestly found this to be one of the worst episodes of this entire series.

LOL, the hyperbole.

[MCLeo28]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

LOL, the hyperbole.

I'd appreciate if you don't go out of your way of ridiculing others simply because their opinion does not glorify Nick's series.

I found it to be one of the worst, but if you enjoyed it, then hats off to you.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by MCLeo28

I found it to be one of the worst, but if you enjoyed it, then hats off to you.

If you found it to be one of the worst, than that's still rather bizarre.

[MCLeo28]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

If you found it to be one of the worst, than that's still rather bizarre.

I agree that it's bizarre, since the crew continues to get better and better as the series continues, but this was an anomaly for me.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by MCLeo28

I agree that it's bizarre, since the crew continues to get better and better as the series continues, but this was an anomaly for me.

Your loss then. Claiming the invasion isn't as big as the Kraang ones as a negative when it wasn't supposed to be, nor was that the focus of the episode, is indeed bizarre.

[MCLeo28]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Your loss then. Claiming the invasion isn't as big as the Kraang ones as a negative when it wasn't supposed to be, nor was that the focus of the episode, is indeed bizarre.

It may not have been their focus, it significantly detracted from the experience because of it. It's not the only reason, but it is one of the reasons why I could not enjoy this episode as much as the rest.

[GoldMutant]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

If you found it to be one of the worst, than that's still rather bizarre.

I find it bizarre how you keep commenting in a futile attempt to argue.

MC, what didn't you like about the episode; why do you consider it one of the worst? Curious as there hasn't been much negativity surrounding the episode outside its sporadic pacing.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by MCLeo28

It may not have been their focus, it significantly detracted from the experience because of it. It's not the only reason, but it is one of the reasons why I could not enjoy this episode as much as the rest.

So a short invasion of ghosts popping up and the city splitting apart somehow distracted you from the rest of the episode? What did you think Kavaxas was going to do? If you think we needed another 2-3 episodes showing the Turtles fight off ghosts, then no, it wasn't necessary.

[MCLeo28]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

So a short invasion of ghosts popping up and the city splitting apart somehow distracted you from the rest of the episode? What did you think Kavaxas was going to do? If you think we needed another 2-3 episodes showing the Turtles fight off ghosts, then no, it wasn't necessary.

Since the premise of Kavaxus's plan was to use the Netherworld to conquer the entire world, then yes, a devoid invasion is gratuitous. I'm not expecting it to be a few episodes, but what I am expecting to see is a larger-scale invasion that cannot be resolved as easily as it was. Having special weaponry was enough to believe that the invasion was really no threat to the entire world's well-being which felt wrong...

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by MCLeo28

Since the premise of Kavaxus's plan was to use the Netherworld to conquer the entire world, then yes, a devoid invasion is gratuitous. I'm not expecting it to be a few episodes, but what I am expecting to see is a larger-scale invasion that cannot be resolved as easily as it was.

The invasion wasn't the point of the episode. In the Kraang episode finale's, the invasion WAS the main point of the episodes. I'm surprised you don't see the difference. The otherworldly invasion in this ep was just to show the stakes if the Turtles didn't stop Kavaxas here and now.

[Vegita-San]

[QUOTE=MCLeo28;1675291]I'd appreciate if you don't go out of your way of ridiculing others simply because their opinion does not glorify Nick's series.
QUOTE]


hey,

everyone needs a hobby to keep them up in the morning ;o)...

hang on, i think someone just called me a troll again, ahh, the world is turning properly ;o)

[Aaronardo]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

So a short invasion of ghosts popping up and the city splitting apart somehow distracted you from the rest of the episode? What did you think Kavaxas was going to do? If you think we needed another 2-3 episodes showing the Turtles fight off ghosts, then no, it wasn't necessary.

Bud. The invasion was the climax of the episode. The invasion was the titular "End Times." If one doesn't like how the invasion was handled, then it's entirely natural if they happened to not like the episode as much as other episodes.

I understand what it's like to want to defend something you feel strongly about, but you don't need to jump on anyone with a differing opinion with no real argument outside of "it's bizzare that you feel that way."

As for your reply to my post, you completely missed the point of every single thing I said. I never said the episode was "bare bones," that would be hypocritical as hell and shoot my argument right in the foot. I was saying what the plot at its simplest state is supposed to be to emphasize how f*cking crowded this episode is.

I'd much rather see an explanation on Shredder's minions as well, and I was never complaining that it was there to begin with. My problem with it, which I felt I made very clear in my post, is how it was executed, and for what it's worth could've been in a different, less crowded episode. But if your idea of writing secondary characters in is "I'd much rather see them there than not there," I'd hate to see the end result. I'm just saying, you don't see Mr. Poopybutthole in every single episode of Rick & Morty, and there's a damn good reason for that.

My problem with Splinter is -- HE'S DEAD. This show finally managed to kill Splinter and have him stay dead. Having him just be able to show up at the end of an episode four episodes after his death for everyone to see him (not just Leo, who, for all we know, could just be hallucinating) cheapens his death just a little. And am I seriously the only one who thinks it's ridiculous that, despite Kavaxas unleashing the UNDERWORLD, Splinter shows up despite his clear ascension into the skies at the end of the episode? That's simply inconsistent.

The sentence "the purpose was to revive Shredder, of course he doesn't do anything" is so hypocritical I almost want to bother with it. All I'll say is we spent four episodes trying to revive the motherf*cking main villain of the show and he didn't do anything. I'm sorry, but that's simple bullsh*t.

[Vegita-San]

fits his appearance with the rest of the series.


he hardly got remembered at all in the krang years.

the turtles barely faced him enough to even be considered real enemies...

then all of a sudden krang get defeated, focus goes a little more on shredder, and he still doesn't really do all that much.

he always seems like an after thought.

[wpugh2424]

So much bickering
This episode should have been more spread out and more in depth , but I appreciate it for what it was. I found it fun and entertaining with many throw backs that were enjoyed.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Aaronardo

Bud. The invasion was the climax of the episode. The invasion was the titular "End Times." If one doesn't like how the invasion was handled, then it's entirely natural if they happened to not like the episode as much as other episodes.

I only replied to the guy because he thought the invasion was supposed to be a big deal on the level of the Kraang invasions in previous seasons, but given the episode we know it wasn't and was never planned to be. As I said, it was done to raise the stakes by letting us know what would happen if Kavaxas was to remain free outside of control of anyone and do what he wanted. The little scenes we got of the Turtles fighting off ghosts was fun and exciting, and it's all I wanted to see.

I'd much rather see an explanation on Shredder's minions as well, and I was never complaining that it was there to begin with. My problem with it, which I felt I made very clear in my post, is how it was executed, and for what it's worth could've been in a different, less crowded episode. But if your idea of writing secondary characters in is "I'd much rather see them there than not there," I'd hate to see the end result.

They literally gave all of Shredder's henchmen things to do in these set of episodes. Fishface did have an early leave, but at least it was explained. I just don't see it as crowded at all, the chaos was only surrounding two characters (Kavaxas and Shredder of course), while everyone was caught in the misfire so to speak.

My problem with Splinter is -- HE'S DEAD. This show finally managed to kill Splinter and have him stay dead. Having him just be able to show up at the end of an episode four episodes after his death for everyone to see him (not just Leo, who, for all we know, could just be hallucinating) cheapens his death just a little. And am I seriously the only one who thinks it's ridiculous that, despite Kavaxas unleashing the UNDERWORLD, Splinter shows up despite his clear ascension into the skies at the end of the episode? That's simply inconsistent.

Splinter was dead and remained dead. There's nothing wrong with Splinter appearing soon after death in a story about ghosts/demons to give a proper farewell to his family and to help out one last time before departing to the afterlife. I'm going to assume ghost Splinter won't appear again for the rest of Season 5, so this was a nice farewell to his character, and the final goodbye to his daughter Miwa and the Turtles was well done.

Likewise Splinter departed into heaven, completely separate from all the ghouls being sent back down below to Hell or the netherworld. They made that distinction quite clear, that's why Splinter didn't disappear when all the other ghosts did...but afterward. So I don't see why you keep bringing that up.

The sentence "the purpose was to revive Shredder, of course he doesn't do anything" is so hypocritical I almost want to bother with it. All I'll say is we spent four episodes trying to revive the motherf*cking main villain of the show and he didn't do anything. I'm sorry, but that's simple bullsh*t.

Yes it does. Think of Shredder as a failed experiment where they tried to bring him back and it didn't work. I much prefer they did it like this, then say, zombie Shredder roaming around all season and not defeated for another 15 episodes.

[MCLeo28]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

The invasion wasn't the point of the episode. In the Kraang episode finale's, the invasion WAS the main point of the episodes. I'm surprised you don't see the difference. The otherworldly invasion in this ep was just to show the stakes if the Turtles didn't stop Kavaxas here and now.

The invasion was the focal point of Kavaxus's strategy. From killing Tatsu to Shredder's revival which was emphasized throughout the entire arc was used as a means to bring the invasion to fruition. Yes, it was the turning point of the entire arc since it was the consequence of Kavaxus's rebellion and was something that the writers had failed to deliver. They foreshadowed Kavaxus's betrayal fairly early yet failed to give the viewers a compelling reason as to how this would be dangerous since the only thing going for him (the invasion) did not deliver.

So, the invasion is to illustrate the consequences/stakes if the Turtles did not stop Kavaxus ... Er, okay. The same can be argued for the Kraang and the Triceratons, so what you claimed is immaterial and rather contradictory to what you're trying to prove.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by MCLeo28

The invasion was the focal point of Kavaxus's strategy. From killing Tatsu to Shredder's revival which was emphasized throughout the entire arc was used as a means to bring the invasion to fruition. Yes, it was the turning point of the entire arc since it was the consequence of Kavaxus's rebellion and was something that the writers had failed to deliver. They foreshadowed Kavaxus's betrayal fairly early yet failed to give the viewers a compelling reason as to how this would be dangerous since the only thing going for him (the invasion) did not deliver.

So, the invasion is to illustrate the consequences/stakes if the Turtles did not stop Kavaxus ... Er, okay. The same can be argued for the Kraang and the Triceratons, so what you claimed is immaterial and rather contradictory to what you're trying to prove.

The invasion itself was in no way the main focus of the episode. Was it Kavaxas endgame? Obviously yes, but the writers didn't focus on it because the episode was about the characters themselves.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

In some weird ways, Kavaxas gave me an OT Lord Dregg vibe, even more than Nick's version of Lord Dregg.