Star Wars - Doubling down on agenda

[Galactus]

So if/when Captain Marvel makes a ton of money the narrative from reactionaries will be whatever it makes it should have made more.

Sounds like a great way to make sure you can justify whatever your beef is with the movie regardless of what it is like or how it performs. Not that I can begrudge you for trying, it seemed to belatedly work for the comicsgate crowd until it the movement began to fall apart and it was proven their agenda was a sham and when they got the kind of comics they pushed for it didn't sell and those they piled hate did. I don't know how that will work with movies though, I think you're going to find it difficult to find impartial commentators to spin the kind of numbers the movie will likely do as a bad thing.

Even more so with Episode 9 which (even if I haven't fully warmed to the first two new trilogy movies) will probably make the kind of money that anyone will find hard to argue with.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Galactus

So if/when Captain Marvel makes a ton of money the narrative from reactionaries will be whatever it makes it should have made more.

Sure but as of now we're just discussing how the expected amount dropped by 45%. This movie needs to make 380 million to brake even, which is still possible (if not likely) if it opens at 100 million (which I think means domestic only). However, since opening weekend typically makes up about 1/3 of the total gross, it's not hard to imagine why 100 million is far less exciting than 180 million, an estimated 300 million pales in comparison to a 540 million estimate.

Again, I don't expect it to do poorly myself (these movies are pretty much bound to make money at this point), but the signifigantly lowered expectations here are still real.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

a cute animated short using the damsel out of distressed trope for comedy and vegita screams AGENDAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Because simply playing it "straight" and showing what actually happened in the films would have done more than enough to make the (valid) point that "Leia don' need no man."

There is simply no NEED to present a revisionist version of events that elevates Leia while simultaneously diminishing all the male characters around her into clueless, helpless idiots. A: That isn't what happened, and B: It's not so much "funny" as it is mean-spirited and purposely diminishing. It's pointless and damaging in ANY context.

That's what shifts it from "comedy" into "agenda-pushing". If they wanted to make the point about Leia being cool, the material speaks for itself; they didn't need to go into revisionist history or "addition through subtraction" (adding to Leia's competence by taking away from everyone else's). I generally subscribe to the philosophy of, "If you flip the genders and now it's plainly offensive, then you should rethink what you're doing."

Would it be "funny" if they did the same skit, with Leia constantly tripping over her skirt and getting distracted by fancy shoes, while Han and Luke flawlessly save the day with their chest-thumping machismo? No, it'd be pretty stupid. And if anyone tries to explain why it's different because "something something Patriarchy", they simply have no argument.

Disney's ownership of Star Wars has been a fascinating social experiment in just how little a corporation can be bothered to care about what their audience actually likes about a franchise or wants to see going forward. The "Chicks Rule, Boys Drool" stuff is so tone-deaf that it's bizarre. The fact that they keep insisting on it despite the persistent vocal backlash just proves that, in wrestling parlance, they're simply "booking to amuse themselves".

[Candy Kappa]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Because simply playing it "straight" and showing what actually happened in the films would have done more than enough to make the (valid) point that "Leia don' need no man."

It's a cartoon, so it's exaggerated, like cartoons usually are, especially shorts. Just redoing frame for frame the actual movie would be boring

Originally Posted by Leo656

There is simply no NEED to present a revisionist version of events that elevates Leia while simultaneously diminishing all the male characters around her into clueless, helpless idiots. A: That isn't what happened, and B: It's not so much "funny" as it is mean-spirited and purposely diminishing. It's pointless and damaging in ANY context.

Hmm, guess I missed the memo, that these shorts are now THE CANON™

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Sure but as of now we're just discussing how the expected amount dropped by 45%. This movie needs to make 380 million to brake even, which is still possible (if not likely) if it opens at 100 million (which I think means domestic only). However, since opening weekend typically makes up about 1/3 of the total gross, it's not hard to imagine why 100 million is far less exciting than 180 million, an estimated 300 million pales in comparison to a 540 million estimate.

Again, I don't expect it to do poorly myself (these movies are pretty much bound to make money at this point), but the signifigantly lowered expectations here are still real.

I haven't personally been following Captain Marvel's box office but it's not the first time there's been a discrepancy with how different companies make their box office estimates. It will likely fluctuate again before the movie releases and frankly many movies beat their estimates. Haven't the recent MCU opened bigger than their widely published estimates.

This is not going to be an Avengers or Black Panther level success and was never going to be but it will be highly profitable for Marvel and it wasn't that long ago these same reactionaries were arguing this movie would be Marvel's first real flop. They'll probably still be arguing that as Disney rakes in the dollars.

Originally Posted by Leo656

Disney's ownership of Star Wars has been a fascinating social experiment in just how little a corporation can be bothered to care about what their audience actually likes about a franchise or wants to see going forward. The "Chicks Rule, Boys Drool" stuff is so tone-deaf that it's bizarre. The fact that they keep insisting on it despite the persistent vocal backlash just proves that, in wrestling parlance, they're simply "booking to amuse themselves".

If box office is indicator they are giving fans what they want.

If you mean die hard Star Wars fans as I said that Solo was exactly the kind of movie die hard fans have been begging for since Lucas announced the movies after the first trilogy. It wasn't a failure or anything but it kinda suggests giving them what they want is not going to hook in the general public.

[oldmanwinters]

Stormtroopers don't hit their intended targets much.
But they shot Leia twice!

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

It's a cartoon, so it's exaggerated, like cartoons usually are, especially shorts. Just redoing frame for frame the actual movie would be boring



Hmm, guess I missed the memo, that these shorts are now THE CANON™

Yes or No, would you find it equally "harmless" if they did an opposing skit in which Leia was an incompetent nitwit and her White Male Saviors did all the heavy lifting? Or would that be ridiculous on its face?

Normally, Yes or No would suffice, but I'm afraid I have to ask you to show your work, here. Because to me it's not "humorous" from either side of the fence. Either something is sexist, diminishing, and harmful, or it isn't.

I suspect this is one of those "It's okay to make males look stupid because They're Men and Thus Deserve It" situations. But I'm open to hearing someone explain why something that would be intolerable from one direction is "silly and harmless" from the opposite.

[Voltron]

The argument I hear often is that women HAVE been portrayed that way in media for years. Currently, we know that there's a disparity in portrayal of men and women.

I feel as though we're having several different conversations at the same time as a society.

One group is saying: "We want more minority groups to have major roles as strong, competent characters in media."

I don't think anyone with a shred of decency in them would say boo to that.

The way Hollywood is delivering is by using stupid, bumbling male characters to accentuate the power of women.

This creates a major imbalance in the other direction, as we can't seem to have a story where characters have flaws as a matter of natural course. What I mean is, people are naturally flawed regardless of any other characteristic. Considering sex an inherent flaw is what started this conversation in the first place.

But now the other side has fallen silent.

Star Wars was really important to a lot of kids growing up. Boys especially, since it was a fairy tale for US. Finally, we got to hang out with the knight for the story, instead of watching the princess. We got to live out fantasies and adventures with fleshed out characters.

We can point to other places like comics and cartoons for that, too. The problem there is that superheros at the time didn't really have any flaws. Star Wars characters did.

Luke was green, hot headed and impatient. He runs head first into traps and often pays a price for it. Arguably, Luke never wins a battle by himself.

Han was a scoundrel. He'd do the right thing, but for the wrong reasons. His pride often gets in the way of anything he does.

Even Ben, the wise old teacher, was manipulative in withholding the truth from Luke in order to keep Luke on the straight and narrow.

It wasn't like these were ubermensch gods from Saturday Morning Cartoons who would solve a problem in 22 minutes and still leave time for a pithy joke or two.

So now all us guys are watching these beloved characters get trashed because. . . well, I don't know.

I do believe there's systemic racism and sexism apparent in society. But spearheading a campaign calling men inherently lesser isn't going to fix that. It's like when a teacher punishes the whole class for what a couple students did.

This would be like turning all of the Disney princesses into unrepentant, merciless whores who sleep around on the respectful, upstanding Prince Charming for the fun of it.

I dunno. I think there's a better way to do this.

[Vegita-San]

of course there is. but, hollywood is also forgetting there was an equal amount of stupid male characteres too. lots in hanna barbara, for instance, like shaggy. I don't think it's as one sided as history revisionists would like us to believe. Just that the dumb women characters might have been more popular at the time.

sad part is, the people in charge don't care a bout evening things out. they care about reversing what they see as the tide. and ism'ing anyone who doesn't agree with them out of the picture.

thankfully, I am seeing alot less white knightism in social comment groups, so maybe people are finally waking up to the fact that this isn't the way to fix things.

[Candy Kappa]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Yes or No, would you find it equally "harmless" if they did an opposing skit in which Leia was an incompetent nitwit and her White Male Saviors did all the heavy lifting? Or would that be ridiculous on its face?

Normally, Yes or No would suffice, but I'm afraid I have to ask you to show your work, here. Because to me it's not "humorous" from either side of the fence. Either something is sexist, diminishing, and harmful, or it isn't.

I suspect this is one of those "It's okay to make males look stupid because They're Men and Thus Deserve It" situations. But I'm open to hearing someone explain why something that would be intolerable from one direction is "silly and harmless" from the opposite.

Sure I'll play, even though your "Yes or No" is disingenuous to the situation.

I don't think Han, Luke and Chewie are "incompetent" in the short. It's exaggerated, cause it's a animated short and it's Leia's animated short. She is the main focus, if that makes you bothered, watch the other's animated shorts where they have their moment to shine.

Anything that'd even remotely fit the "incompetent nitwit" might be Luke messing up the rope. But beyond that it's all within the exaggerated frame of the short, plus within the 7 seconds that scene lasted in the short, it shows that Luke isn't your typical macho hero, he's a kid that's just been roped into this adventure.

Leia is in the movie unimpressed by Short-Luke Stormtrooper, and she is in the short. She is sarcastic about "some rescue" in the movie like the short, she is the one taking the blaster from Luke and shoots a hole in the vent and she shoots at Stormtroopers, this is switched in the short for effect, especially with her having a overkill moment and blasts away hitting that domino effect, giving pause where she has a angry-gaze-breathing moment and the guys looking surprised. She is taking charge in the movie, and it's cartoony-fied in the short as her literally throwing Luke and Chewie in the vent and Han doing a side slide look.

Leia did strangle Jabba in a gaudy bikini outfit

Leia did get on the Speeder first and Luke sitting behind her, it's exaggerated since it's a 3 second comedy bit in a cartoon short.

Making a short where Leia is a "incompetent nitwit". Why? Just to make a complete turn on the character, is it parody? is it a deconstruction of tropes or something? Cause Luke, Han and Chewie are not "incompetent nitwits" just because they serve comedic bits.

Here's another short Chewbacca - The Trusty Co-Pilot. Yes, there are more of them and not just Princess Leia - The Rescue , but we all know vegita isn't interested in discussing the actual shorts, just use the one showcasing Leia and whine "WIMIN IN MAH FICTION"



They're both pretty comedic relief here as well, but I guess since there's no Leia it's fine.

[Leo656]

I wasn't being disingenuous, so don't project. I simply asked you a question that I kinda/sorta already figured the answer to.

I've never once in my life seen anyone bemoan "womenfolk in fiction" in and of itself. I'm sure people do it, but I've never seen it.

I HAVE seen many people point out that the recent trend is, "Elevate female characters by making male characters appear inferior", and that it isn't good. That there should be another way of making their point. It happens in Star Wars, it happens on the Supergirl show, it happens in lots of places, and it's very clumsily handled in each of them. And it's not one or two "angry males" pointing it out, it's the majority of people with two eyes. So there's probably something to it.

So it's "only" Luke getting tangled in his rope while Leia does all the work. "Harmless". Fine then. Allow someone to produce a similar skit, in which Leia bumbles their escape attempt, getting distracted by becoming preoccupied with shoes or jewelry or something, and watch feminists everywhere cry foul. Because they would. And they wouldn't be wrong to cry foul, as it would be silly.

It's not dissimilar to what they pulled with TLJ. When EVERY angle in their new material from movies and cartoons is based around, "Check out these stupid dudes, and check out these AWESOME chicks, who are stunning and brave!", and it's constant, that's what becomes evident of an "agenda". The fact that it's not one movie or a few seconds of a skit. It's in EVERYTHING they do, and if a person can't see it, it's because they simply choose not to see it.

Most people see it, so... it's probably not just me. And we probably don't all "hate women" and are thus simply overreacting. Like Voltron said, it's probably that they don't know how to take a more even hand in their approach.

[Candy Kappa]

Originally Posted by Leo656

So it's "only" Luke getting tangled in his rope while Leia does all the work. "Harmless". Fine then. Allow someone to produce a similar skit, in which Leia bumbles their escape attempt, getting distracted by becoming preoccupied with shoes or jewelry or something, and watch feminists everywhere cry foul. Because they would. And they wouldn't be wrong to cry foul, as it would be silly.

I find it interesting your go-to examples are Leia being distracted by typical girl coded things like shoes and jewelry. Luke isn't distracted by a cool spaceship or getting a BFG instead of a regular blaster.

He's in a stressing situation and messes up the rope, which he kinda does in the actual movie, at least he's taking his sweet ass time unwinding the rope while Leia is given the blaster and is shooting at Troopers, he doesn't get tangled in the movie, but we're talking about a 7 second clip compared to a scene that's well over a minute long, cartoons exaggerates just like when Bugs Bunny squashes and stretches when he's doing a extreme motion.


But hey, lets scoff at the non-canon animated comedy short that's making a character look silly. How dare they!

[Vegita-San]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Most people see it, so... it's probably not just me. And we probably don't all "hate women" and are thus simply overreacting. Like Voltron said, it's probably that they don't know how to take a more even hand in their approach.

I can't TELL you the amount of people that think I hate women and want them to fail, just because I hate fake femenists and what they are doing to my favorite franchises.

It's a derangment syndrome that first started on another forum and has soon spread to all the others. and it all started with me having fun making fun of how bad we all knew feigbusters was going to be, and just not caring if anyone thought i was going overboard...

All that happened because formerly sane people, who's opinions I respected, went into the realm of derangment syndrome and stopped listening to what was being said...and started acting super crazy. so, why not join the bandwagon at that point?

Honestly, it's still downright scary the amount of people derangement syndrome hits. those who refuse to see what hollywood is doing, because they either agree with it, or just don't care.

And i've had to stop talking to more and more people because of it. cause it's just not sane to keep the convo going anymore.

[Candy Kappa]

Or, maybe it's you and how you articulate yourself if it's happening on other forums as well.

[oldmanwinters]

I like this fan-theory that the all-but-botched rescue of Han Solo was actually Leia's ill-conceived plan that Luke was trying to counter-plan against.
https://www.avclub.com/wait-what-exa...urn-1823427030
https://twitter.com/mikeryan/status/968937882999250945

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by Galactus

If box office is indicator they are giving fans what they want.

I don't think that fans wanted mess called The Last Jedi.
And the box-office is not always an indication of success. DC movies were also box office hits, but...

[Andrew NDB]

Even "Batman & Robin" made money.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by Sumac

I don't envy modern writers.
They have stuck between hammer and anvil.

How do you write good female (minority) character, without attracting ire of sizable portion of lunatics from one side or the other?

If you write them overcompetent you end up with Mary Sue, if you write them as competent as everyone, somebody would be offended saying that "female character is bad, because she is nothing special".

Yeah, exactly. At this point, it feels like you can't win no matter what. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

A bit unrelated to SW, but even a Korean friend of mine told me recently that in his country there's something called Ministry of Gender Equality and Family, and that apparently now they want to control K-pop, by telling the industry to stop producing idol groups full of good looking girls. But nothing is said about guys, so groups like BTS will be fine. A boys band full of hot guys is fine but not a girls band with hot girls? I mean, come on now, the main reeson why K-pop is even popular in the first place is because of eye candy. Pop music is generally a quite sexualised genre already. When people listen to pop music they want a catchy beat and also a good looking singer to look at. So if anything, this might actually ruin the k-pop industry.

[Autbot_Benz]

How about a Rose Tico Show


DiscussingFilm
‏ @DiscussingFilm

Lucasfilm is reportedly considering developing a Rose Tico TV Series. (Source: https://hnentertainment.co/exclusive...s-considering/ …)

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Autbot_Benz

How about a Rose Tico Show


DiscussingFilm
‏ @DiscussingFilm

Lucasfilm is reportedly considering developing a Rose Tico TV Series. (Source: https://hnentertainment.co/exclusive...s-considering/ …)

Oh GAWD. Worst character ever.

Rey's fine. Not well written, but at least she understands heroic sacrifice.