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Old 04-26-2017, 12:58 AM   #41
Candy Kappa
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The Foot Clan in the Nick cartoon got really thinned out after meeting the Turtles hence the Footbots, I doubt they all just ran away.

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Carrying a sword or any blade doesn't mean that I must eventually kill somebody with it. Just because..."well I have it with me" ? That's kinda dumb.
If you use it on another person, then yes. You can and will end up killing someone. You can't just stab a person non-lethally with a sword, no such thing. There may be techniques where to stab/slash a person with best outcome to not kill, but it isn't like the movies when a person drop right away. You can fatally wound someone and they die later due to damaged organs or bleeding out because a artery was cut.

So unless you live in an actual cartoon, swinging a sword to hit another person's flesh is an act of trying to kill them.
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Old 04-26-2017, 03:04 AM   #42
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Well sure you might fatally wound someone because they bled out or you hit a vital organ but that's if you really lay into them.

We're talking about intent though. Accidentally causing a potentially fatal wound in a fight is not the same as purposely killing someone just because you can.

Andrew was arguing that the Turtles were meant to be kill-or-be-killed characters. Which was probably true for the original comics (like I said I never read them).

However he seemed to keep implying that's the No. 1 way they should portrayed and that Ninja can mean nothing else but ruthless assassin.
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Old 04-26-2017, 09:03 AM   #43
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I say in a normal Foot battle in the comics, the turtles do their best to take them out clean and fast. That means knock them out, immobilize them or if the sword happens to swing a certain way, kill them. The difference is, most times the bad guys in the comics aren't content with just a beat down and walk away to 'teach them a lesson' or just rough em up to capture them. There is no 'don't kill them though, i want them alive' bs the typical champagne glass evil cat petter would say. They're out to kill the turtles. The turtles fight in a realistic way of self defense. Not to purposely kill, but not to go ridiculously out of their way to not kill because 'killing is wrong kids'. I wouldn't say the turtles are 100% realistic, far from it, but when they fight it's for self defense and survival, not to teach the reader any morals.

It also kinda means, if you're a foot ninja, try to go after mike and don. You have better chances of living to see another day. Plus whenever Leo does stab someone.... dude, he has 2 big swords. What do you ****ing expect will happen to you if you go at someone that has swords???? It sure won't be cutting a curtain to have it fall on you.

Let's not forget all the pizza tossing and chandelier dropping was mostly because they were barely allowed to actually punch and kick guys.

I purposely left out volume 3 to avoid anyone telling me its been turned non-canon. However at the time it was canon and hey, deaths.
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Old 04-26-2017, 09:35 AM   #44
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And I can't speak for Laird, as probably -- maybe -- if it was up to him alone, there wouldn't have been any "Ninja" in the title at all (which is the beauty of the Eastman-Laird dichotomy... these are the Yin and Yang that come together in excellence!)... but Eastman? I went to bat for him, with him when the comic book rights were being bandied about after the Viacom/Nickelodeon sale with Boom! and other studios... what he wanted to do, what he was pitching around would have made the "Bodycount" comic look like The Smurfs, in the best possible way.

Point being? Eastman likes his Ninja Turtles acting like ninjas. And then some.
Now this is interesting. Any other details on Kevin trying to take back the reigns of tmnt or what direction he may have wanted to take it? Ultimate fan speculation **** you just dropped.
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Old 04-26-2017, 09:57 AM   #45
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Now this is interesting. Any other details on Kevin trying to take back the reigns of tmnt or what direction he may have wanted to take it? Ultimate fan speculation **** you just dropped.
It was to be "A Return to New York sequel" (not a "City at War" sequel, note) taking place a short time after that story. A standalone 12 issue maxi-series thing he would at the very least write the story of (not necessarily the scripts), layout, and illustrate. "Very bloody, very intense, moving at a breakneck speed" is about how he described it. And yes, he threw in comparisons to "The Raid" and "District 13" in his descriptions, which was funny when I later saw him comparing the fighting in the 2014 movie to them as well.

At the time, right after the sale, Kevin Eastman was very, very keen on godfathering new TMNT comics. That maxi-series would have been the ground level of it. Basically... a new action-oriented Mirage TMNT Vol. 5, but set way earlier. When the Boom! thing didn't happen he was shepherded to IDW, who was already cooking up their stuff. He's actually old friends with the IDW CEO. He got in the door there and basically settled for that arrangement.
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Old 04-26-2017, 11:44 AM   #46
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I prefer the Turtles to be willing to kill, but not for the sake of a contract. That also means, not frequently. They should kill:

1) If under attack by enemies who would kill them if they didn't.
2) If an enemy is so threatening to them/their loved ones/everyone that the enemy needs to be eliminated for the greater good. Also, presumably there would be obviously no other option involving the proper legal authorities.
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Old 04-26-2017, 11:55 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Wildcat View Post
Well sure you might fatally wound someone because they bled out or you hit a vital organ but that's if you really lay into them.

We're talking about intent though. Accidentally causing a potentially fatal wound in a fight is not the same as purposely killing someone just because you can.

Andrew was arguing that the Turtles were meant to be kill-or-be-killed characters. Which was probably true for the original comics (like I said I never read them).

However he seemed to keep implying that's the No. 1 way they should portrayed and that Ninja can mean nothing else but ruthless assassin.
If they're going to be drawn/animated/written as carrying lethal weapons, it should be assumed that they are prepared to use those weapons lethally.

People shouldn't carry a gun, for instance, unless they're prepared to use deadly force.

Also...um, you don't have to really lay into someone to kill them with a lethal weapon. And most organs are vital. The ones that aren't, are really REALLY close to the ones that are. There's a reason they're called lethal weapons.
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Old 04-26-2017, 12:03 PM   #48
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The turtles aren't concerned with the laws of man in general, really. Why would they even apply to them? They operate on their own personal moral family code and well, they were raised to avenge death with more death, so yeah.

I don't think they like to kill or anything, but it's something they do.
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Old 04-26-2017, 12:26 PM   #49
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It also kinda means, if you're a foot ninja, try to go after mike and don. You have better chances of living to see another day.
I don't know. Donatello was the one who declared "No one leaves!" in Return to NY. When it comes to their war with the foot, they can all be pretty brutal.

It's important to remember that there are Mirage issues besides Vol. 1 Issue #1 and I feel that issue suffers from "Early Installment Weirdness". Judging by the way they are in most of Mirage, I'd say they try to avoid unnecessary killing, but if an enemy is just too evil or dangerous to keep alive or there's no other way to stop them, they won't hesitate to put their ninja skills to their true purpose and finish the job. And, I prefer them that way over them being ruthless killing machines or adhering to a strict no killing policy.

Though, when it comes to Foot Ninja they just go "Brock Samson" on them, but that's a personal vendetta.

As for other versions, even the FW TMNT blew up Dregg at the end of the series, and found out the Foot Soldiers were robots by attempting to kill them. The Archie TMNT slaughtered Malignoids with no problems. Nick!Leo decapitated Shredder just like Mirage!Leo, and 4Kids!Leo attempted the same not knowing he was an Utrom. So, most major versions are at least willing to kill if it's necessary.

As for "Crime Fighting" I imagine that when they happen to encounter crime they do something about it. But, they don't usually go looking for crime to fight (unless they just want someone to fight, like Raph).
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Old 04-26-2017, 02:51 PM   #50
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The TMNT I grew up with is the 1987 cartoon and I see the core values carry over outside of the black and white comics. I prefer the TMNT follow a 'no kill' policy. A number of the other most popular super heroes follow the code like Superman and Spider-Man and it makes them better than the evil they face. Killing a villain to stop them no matter what act he/she has done brings them down to their opponent's level. The TMNT are both ninjas and mutants and a key theme is not assassin but that of survival. They don't have to kill to survive. They need to stop them in order to prevent further harm to them, others, the city, or even the planet. Yes, in an iteration or two the TMNT are murderers. Just like Batman was in the beginning. Yet soon just like Batman they were adapted for everyone and it became a part of who they are. I admit if a lady love was killed I would want nothing more than to end the killer's life as well. Yet even if the TMNT,Batman,Robin/Nightwing,Superman,Spider-Man have that same urge they rise above it and don't descend into the same act their enemies do. They are better than them and us the average Joe Citizen.

I also don't like having Shredder, Krang, or Rat King killed off for good. I feel a world without the key villains brings a lack of direction and point to it all. That is just me.
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Old 04-26-2017, 05:52 PM   #51
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Yet even if the TMNT,Batman,Robin/Nightwing,Superman,Spider-Man have that same urge they rise above it and don't descend into the same act their enemies do. They are better than them and us the average Joe Citizen.
True but the turtles aren't superheroes. They're not out to save the world, they're not out to show humanity how to better themselves. They're all about living their lives unless **** comes their way.

Superman is all about showing us that we can be better, and Spidernan and Batman feel the need to go out every night until every last lowlife is put in jail, which will never happen. The turtles aren't about that.

If a dude breaks into your house with a gun and youre lucky enough to have one, you're not gonna be thinking of morals and shoot him in the knee. Nor are you gonna hit the guy over the head with a vase or something while being extra careful to not straight up kill the guy. That's how i see the turtles and the foot. They endanger themselves and their loved ones so they must be taken out.

And yes, excellent points. Don't give a guy trained in bladed weapons, a pair of bladed weapons.... and then have him throw kicks instead.
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Old 04-26-2017, 08:30 PM   #52
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It was to be "A Return to New York sequel" (not a "City at War" sequel, note) taking place a short time after that story. A standalone 12 issue maxi-series thing he would at the very least write the story of (not necessarily the scripts), layout, and illustrate. "Very bloody, very intense, moving at a breakneck speed" is about how he described it. And yes, he threw in comparisons to "The Raid" and "District 13" in his descriptions, which was funny when I later saw him comparing the fighting in the 2014 movie to them as well.

At the time, right after the sale, Kevin Eastman was very, very keen on godfathering new TMNT comics. That maxi-series would have been the ground level of it. Basically... a new action-oriented Mirage TMNT Vol. 5, but set way earlier. When the Boom! thing didn't happen he was shepherded to IDW, who was already cooking up their stuff. He's actually old friends with the IDW CEO. He got in the door there and basically settled for that arrangement.
I want you to know I do appreciate you bringing me to tears like this.

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Seriously, that sound really cool. Maybe IDW will let him get away with something like that one day. Unlikely, but we can hope.
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Old 04-26-2017, 09:30 PM   #53
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Maybe IDW will let him get away with something like that one day. Unlikely, but we can hope.
If IDW had their way, I'm sure they would. Nick won't let IDW have the Turtles kill anyone... let alone let Eastman have his bloody magnum opus. I don't see that really ever changing in the foreseeable future.
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Old 04-26-2017, 10:24 PM   #54
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If IDW had their way, I'm sure they would. Nick won't let IDW have the Turtles kill anyone... let alone let Eastman have his bloody magnum opus. I don't see that really ever changing in the foreseeable future.
That's the risk they took when a company known mostly for kids stuff took over. Spongebob and Bloodbath don't seem to belong in the same sentence.

Though I do admit it would be funny to see Body Count with the Nickelodeon logo in the corner, lmao.
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Old 04-26-2017, 10:26 PM   #55
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If they're going to be drawn/animated/written as carrying lethal weapons, it should be assumed that they are prepared to use those weapons lethally.

People shouldn't carry a gun, for instance, unless they're prepared to use deadly force.

Also...um, you don't have to really lay into someone to kill them with a lethal weapon. And most organs are vital. The ones that aren't, are really REALLY close to the ones that are. There's a reason they're called lethal weapons.
For the record I said before I'm not against the turtles killing but only if it's "true evil" If they NEED to kill someone that's fine.

My point about weapons in general was that you don't have to have intent to kill to justify carrying them. It's really up to you how you choose to use them.

I know a bladed weapon (in this case swords/sais) can easily cause a fatal blow. Again I'm talking intent.
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Old 04-26-2017, 10:26 PM   #56
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I don't have turtles.
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Old 04-26-2017, 10:36 PM   #57
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I don't have turtles.
I feel for you buddy.

To answer the question in the literal sense, yes my turtles are killers. They take pleasure in ripping their grasshoppers/crickets/worms in half just before they eat 'em too. Ahh, the beauty of nature!
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Old 04-26-2017, 10:41 PM   #58
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For the record I said before I'm not against the turtles killing but only if it's "true evil" If they NEED to kill someone that's fine.

My point about weapons in general was that you don't have to have intent to kill to justify carrying them. It's really up to you how you choose to use them.

I know a bladed weapon (in this case swords/sais) can easily cause a fatal blow. Again I'm talking intent.
The thing is, most of the times, the enemies they face are that dangerous that they need to be taken out to ensure their personal safety and that of April and Casey and whoever else they associate with. I wouldn't say the Turtles would kill muggers and whatnot, they'd probably rough them up a bit or give them a good scare. The Foot however, is no laughing matter and it's almost suicidal to just 'let them get away until next time'. I mean Savanti almost ruined all of existence, yeah, let's give him a slap on the wrist, I'm sure he won't try to mess with time ever again.
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Old 04-26-2017, 10:54 PM   #59
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The thing is, most of the times, the enemies they face are that dangerous that they need to be taken out to ensure their personal safety and that of April and Casey and whoever else they associate with. I wouldn't say the Turtles would kill muggers and whatnot, they'd probably rough them up a bit or give them a good scare. The Foot however, is no laughing matter and it's almost suicidal to just 'let them get away until next time'. I mean Savanti almost ruined all of existence, yeah, let's give him a slap on the wrist, I'm sure he won't try to mess with time ever again.
I think the Nick cartoon and the 4kids did a good job portraying thier "moral code". It's pretty much how I see them. I used Nick/4kids Shredder as my first example for who they'd kill.
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Old 04-27-2017, 02:28 AM   #60
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I don't have turtles.
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I feel for you buddy.

To answer the question in the literal sense, yes my turtles are killers. They take pleasure in ripping their grasshoppers/crickets/worms in half just before they eat 'em too. Ahh, the beauty of nature!
Reminds me of when I tried to introduce fish in my turtle tank. It actually went really well, I bought mostly "bargain bin" fish to test it out and three of those fish that sticks on the glass.

Besides a few casualties the turtles seemed to grow tired to chasing the fish, 2 of the 3 suckers got eaten. But the last one grew huge, like he was as big as the turtles. After a couple of months I found the big sucker fish floating upside-down, no visible injuries, just dead. And the night after the turtles had cleaned the whole tank off the fish, there wasn't a single trace that I had fish in it, around 50 fish was just gone.
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