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Old 03-24-2017, 09:38 PM   #61
TigerClaw
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I don't think so... Peter Laird had pretty much total control of the situation at 4Kids (which is where the Shredder's daughter rubbish started). If he wanted Karai to remain Shredder's boss like the comics, he could've.
Let's not forget that Peter Laird was responsible for making the Shredder an alien in the 4Kids series, Just saying.
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Old 03-24-2017, 09:49 PM   #62
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Let's not forget that Peter Laird was responsible for making the Shredder an alien in the 4Kids series, Just saying.
I feel like these are the sort of things that creep into TMNT when you remove the Eastman side of the equation. You remove either opposing force (either Kevin or Peter), it becomes... strange. Interesting, but strange.
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Old 03-24-2017, 09:57 PM   #63
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the early comics (non-guest era) ranging 1 thru 21 and the micro-series will always be my favorites.

48 thru 62 were excellent, but the really early stuff was pure magic.
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Old 03-25-2017, 01:21 AM   #64
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Anyone have a source to prove Ch'rel was Laird's idea? Even if it was, I get the feeling it was less an idea he pulled out of the blue and more something he came up with once there was a mandate that Shredder had to be an arch-nemesis because every past incarnation but TNM made him one, so he did what he could to make Shredder someone who could keep coming back and make sense doing so. At least, that is what I want to believe.

At any rate, it is quite a bit of an oversimplification to declare Laird had complete control in that era. Mandates from the TV powers that be still were a factor; even if we wish they weren't. Laird likely had complete control of the Mirage series, and probably was in a position to say to 4Kids, "You're either going to make a cartoon like this, or you're not going to make a cartoon", but that choice was the extent of it all, and of course, Laird wasn't the only one who could say "You're not going to make a cartoon". If Laird wanted to put a graphic sex scene in a Mirage story, he could. If he wanted to put one in an episode of the 4Kids show, and said that if they didn't, he wouldn't cooperate, well, that would have been the end of the 4Kids show. They'd have let that bridge burn. Laird could always have decided they no longer had permission to make a show based on his properties, and they could always have decided they would no longer agree to make a show based on his properties. It lasted a while without coming to that, but it might well have.

My point here is that there was an inevitable point past which the threat of "if that's the case, the show is over", by either party, wouldn't halt a decision. Obviously it wasn't actually a matter of a graphic sex scene in a 4Kids show (At least not so far as I know!) but there could very well have been other things that were ruled unfit for children's TV. An ally of the protagonists whose main goal is to murder her way to the top of a criminal syndicate could very well be one of them. So while Laird could have opted to kill off the whole show if he asked 4Kids to adapt Karai correctly and they said no, or in a less extreme form of the same policy, just removed Karai from any involvement whatsoever, he would not have been able to override certain people who forbade a Mirage-accurate Karai. Retaliate, yes, but not override them.

Edit: This is all reminding me of how much I hated how the 4Kids show seemed to have a draconian rule that nobody could manage to finish a sentence that would have ended with the word, "dead". That was the case even in the better seasons, which pushed the envelope of what might have been acceptable in children's TV. A lot of people rip on the 4Kids show's overuse of "What the shell" as it's annoying memetic equivalent of "Cowabunga". Not me; I was too busy hating on this namby-pamby ********!
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Old 03-25-2017, 01:55 AM   #65
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Apparently having her be her own woman and Shredder's boss wasn't satisfactory... she had to be the underling and daughter of Shredder to "work" as a character.

I'm shocked more fans aren't upset about that, particularly female fans.
I think it adds a touch that's far more personal to Karai.
Granted...I'm the person developing a take where Karai is Oroku Saki's wife...and give the 4Kids/Nick treatment of Karai to Pimiko/Himiko (how I'd be spelling it, I've struggled to find other places where it was done the other way).
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Old 03-25-2017, 04:18 AM   #66
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I read an interview where Laird said that the idea to make Shredder an Utrom was one they had fairly early on in the development of the show, and that he and the other people working on the show were mutually excited about it.

All they had to do was give us another character to compete with Yoshi for Tang Shen's love, which they did.
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Old 03-25-2017, 06:57 AM   #67
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Correct. Apparently having her be her own woman and Shredder's boss wasn't satisfactory... she had to be the underling and daughter of Shredder to "work" as a character.
Well, to be fair, it's implied Shredder was ignoring her authority. So she wasn't effectivey his boss anyway.
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Old 03-25-2017, 07:38 AM   #68
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I think she was. He just pulled in enough money that she looked the other way.
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Old 03-25-2017, 09:50 AM   #69
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I like to see it as..

Eras

I think each side having equal control, to single control (each getting a turn).. and then... it being passed off. Not sure what the future holds, but here's hoping to another 25 awesome years. I'll probably be close to retirement.


The way I see it is.. it will become like Superman and Batman (and all the other heroes). The fans will keep it alive.
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Old 03-25-2017, 12:44 PM   #70
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I read an interview where Laird said that the idea to make Shredder an Utrom was one they had fairly early on in the development of the show, and that he and the other people working on the show were mutually excited about it.

All they had to do was give us another character to compete with Yoshi for Tang Shen's love, which they did.
Do you have a link to that interview?
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Old 03-25-2017, 12:47 PM   #71
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I think she was. He just pulled in enough money that she looked the other way.
Karai: Saki, we need to talk about how you murdered Hamato Yoshi, his family might not take kindly to this...

(Shredder dumps a briefcase of money on her desk)

Karai: Alright then, don't worry about that but we still need to talk about your drug trade, it could really...

(Shredder adds two more briefcases)

Karai: ... Fine, OK, what's a few more drug lords am I right? However, this magic flatworm resurrection project your men are working on, you're really going to screw up the chain of command if you continue to...

(Shredder whistles, a dump truck of money comes in)

Karai: I didn't say anything, keep the funds flowing dude!

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I feel like these are the sort of things that creep into TMNT when you remove the Eastman side of the equation. You remove either opposing force (either Kevin or Peter), it becomes... strange. Interesting, but strange.
So wait, what's your opinion on the Utrom Shredder?
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Turtles is basically the red-headed stepchild of Nick.
Hahahaha!
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Old 03-25-2017, 01:21 PM   #72
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I agree the two are best when they balance each other out.

Individually, however, each was involved in two really good aspects of the TMNT franchise: the 2003 series and the IDW comics. So each has his strengths.
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Old 03-25-2017, 07:11 PM   #73
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Individually, however, each was involved in two really good aspects of the TMNT franchise: the 2003 series and the IDW comics. So each has his strengths.
Kevin barely has much input on IDW TMNT though. All the main story plots and direction come from Tom Waltz, Bobby, and some of the other recurring writers.
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Old 03-25-2017, 07:19 PM   #74
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So wait, what's your opinion on the Utrom Shredder?
Conceptually not a bad idea. Though the actual character of Ch'rell was fairly nonsensical. He what, wants to rule the universe? Do evil things just for evil's sake? Dumb.
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Old 03-25-2017, 07:21 PM   #75
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He was a warlord. Perhaps he wanted to get... "like, stupid rich".
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Old 03-25-2017, 07:23 PM   #76
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He was a warlord. Perhaps he wanted to get... "like, stupid rich".
Very nice one.
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Old 03-26-2017, 03:59 AM   #77
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Conceptually not a bad idea. Though the actual character of Ch'rell was fairly nonsensical. He what, wants to rule the universe? Do evil things just for evil's sake? Dumb.
I can't really argue against to be honest, it would have been nice if there was more to him than wanting to rule the universe just because.

The reason I don't mind it so much however, is that the alternatives seem to be:
  • "I really hate this guy I killed two decades ago"
  • "I'm back from the dead and now I hate his pet rat for sending mutant turtles to kill me"
  • "Fools! I will take over the world with a fake pizzeria!"
  • "I'm a walking continuity error due to Murphy making this crap up as he goes along!"
  • "I killed Hamato Yoshi, this time for a far less justifiable reason and run an arcade that doubles as a recruitment center"
  • "My evil was erased and now I'm a useless hobo"
  • "I hate Hamato Yoshi again but this time I do so based on delusion rather than anything he actually did, so there's literally no reason at all to sympathise for me, I'm just crazy scumbag who can't set my priorities straight. At least he's alive this time, makes my motivation less stretched."
  • "Veek-To-Ree and riches"

If that's basically all that's been done with the Shredder over the course of 33 years, then you might as well make him evil for the sake of being evil.
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Turtles is basically the red-headed stepchild of Nick.
Hahahaha!
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Old 03-26-2017, 04:25 AM   #78
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Correct. Apparently having her be her own woman and Shredder's boss wasn't satisfactory... she had to be the underling and daughter of Shredder to "work" as a character.

I'm shocked more fans aren't upset about that, particularly female fans.
Never been a fan of Daughter!Karai, it's one of the dumbest changes of a character that's been done in the whole franchise.
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Old 03-26-2017, 05:12 AM   #79
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Very nice one.
Haha, couldn't help myself.

On a real note, while Ch'rell probably had some paper-thin reason for being a warlord/conqueror, his main objective was revenge on the Utrom, who he felt had wrongly imprisoned him.


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Never been a fan of Daughter!Karai, it's one of the dumbest changes of a character that's been done in the whole franchise.
It made a degree of sense with 4kids, since they made him an Utrom and he'd been leader of the Foot for like 600 years. But I hate how that's just become her default defining trait in every version since.
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Old 03-26-2017, 05:34 AM   #80
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It made a degree of sense with 4kids, since they made him an Utrom and he'd been leader of the Foot for like 600 years. But I hate how that's just become her default defining trait in every version since.
It seems to me that most of the Mirage elements that didn't make it into the FW cartoon or the movies (which are a lot of them) and are still being used have pretty much been filtered through the 4kids cartoon, rather than anyone going back the comics themselves for inspiration. Granted you won't really notice for, let's say the Fugitoid or Renet, but other will be obvious.

Karai? 4Kids version is the basis for every version of her aside from maybe the 2007 movie. Purple Dragons? Always led by Hun. And bring it up if anyone ever uses characters like Gosei Hattori or Radical ever again.
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Turtles is basically the red-headed stepchild of Nick.
Hahahaha!

Last edited by neatoman; 03-26-2017 at 05:44 AM.
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