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Old 01-21-2015, 02:58 PM   #61
Leo656
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It's not an "argument", it's simply a matter of, "there's a right and wrong way to do things." There's a way to make things look good and a way to make them look crummy.
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Old 01-21-2015, 03:04 PM   #62
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Practical suits with CG-enhanced faces (to eliminate stiff robotic lip moment) would've been awesome.
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Old 01-21-2015, 03:21 PM   #63
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Practical suits with CG-enhanced faces (to eliminate stiff robotic lip moment) would've been awesome.
Great facial prosthetics and makeup can also do the trick.
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Old 01-21-2015, 03:44 PM   #64
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Well.... this blew up. I shouldn't have slept in and then taken so long to log on, look at what I missed.

Yeah...somehow I doubt that anyone will ever win these arguments given the wide range of preferences that would probably belong to/in completely separate films...

Though I have to disagree with the "puppets" thing. Will we ever see it again for TMNT? Maybe not. (Or maybe... Someone with the ability to fund a movie they want to make in that style isn't exactly an impossibility and it's up to them if it's any good or not.) But I don't feel that it as a medium should be regarded as old technology that was replaced by CGI. It's a different medium of it's own. It itself may continue to evolve and improve - and it has over time - but I think to feel that it's replaced by entirely different mediums is like saying there would be no more paintings because sculpture was invented.

It may still be a long time before live action CGI can have the level of interaction those suits were capable of. Raph is so big compered to his actor, if April were to hug him she'd prob disappear within the rendered model... Would take some good acting to pull off a workable legit air hug.

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Practical suits with CG-enhanced faces (to eliminate stiff robotic lip moment) would've been awesome.
Would be interesting to see tried out if someone out there has the talents to mesh that together in a way that works out right and isn't noticeable.


As for how human they look in this... Eh, I'm largely over that factor at this point, once the uncanny valley stopped feeling so uncomfortable, if it's how this set came out... ok... fine. HOWEVER, I do wish they'd at least use the movie to explain that a bit and not just act as if the mutagen acted as a magic growth serum. Explain why they appear so human, like, I dunno... trying to concoct something that would heal people "on a cellular level" happened to include human DNA within the attempted creation of it? And therefor say they're slightly partly human, in a round about way, and came out like they did...is that so hard? Cripe, even Nick took the time in their story to explain Nick Leo's voice change. Movie team, you shouldn't ignore this factor. (But if you let Pete voice Leo this time I'll give that a pass on explanations, that was more important for the series... )

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Old 01-21-2015, 04:06 PM   #65
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So, basically, long story short, you want them to go back to puppets? you think animatronics look realer than CGI? hate to break it to you buddy, but where not living in the 80s anymore. I can personally assure you, that we will NEVER see puppets, like ever again.
And aww, too bad.. they didn't make them look like the incarnation of TMNT you grew up.. boo, hoo. they aren't using outdated effects like the one you grew up with! waahh!

The only thing I can agree with you on, is the fact that the physics were waaay off in the movie.
Yeah, look, ordinarily I'm loath to use a Cracked article to support an argument (as that site's really gone downhill lately), but this one is well-written enough and it raises a number of points which may help you to understand why practical effects have an edge on CG:

http://www.cracked.com/article_22000...-monsters.html

If you think that practical effects = bad/cheesy/unrealistic, no offense man, but you don't know much about movies, or haven't watched enough of them (at least, none older than 15 - 20 years ago).

Go watch The Fly, or the chestburster scene from the original Alien, or Independence Day, Gremlins, Hellraiser, Evil Dead. Horror films in particular helped to advance the field of special effects in a major way - you'd learn a lot from watching some of the older ones.

Even Pan's Labyrinth is a great example of how you can combine prosthetics, animatronics and CG to create the most lifelike creatures possible.

Videos under the spoiler for further discussion so I don't make the page load slowly:

Spoiler:






Compare and contrast with:



So once again, practical doesn't automatically equal bad, any more than CG automatically equals good and cutting edge.
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Old 01-21-2015, 05:11 PM   #66
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Y'know with all this talk of practical vs cgi it strikes me that Leibesman in one of those behind the scenes videos said he wanted to work in as much practical effects as possible on the movie before cutting to another interview where he talked how much cgi was in it and how great it is to do things that you could never do before. I wonder whoever edited that BTS video was secretly having a laugh by showing the director saying two completely opposite things back-to-back.

Of course we all know through most of the pimping of this movie they promoted the idea that the cgi was a great and allowed them to do things that the cumbersome rubber suits never could. One interview in particular I remember said they could never show a turtle flipping a truck before cgi except you actually could.

More importantly though that despite whatever restrictions the rubber suits supposedly has the motion capture cgi has one very big restriction; how much it costs. You can't show the turtles the stars for long. This is a problem even in Bay's Transformer's movies which he has a lot of money to play with but TMNT's meager budget by comparison it really shows. While there are times the cgi seems impressive there's more than a few times it just flat out doesn't look good. I praise them effects team for what was obviously a lot of work but they really bit off more than they could chew with six motion captured characters.

The worst part about it is how unnecessary it was. While I thought the actors playing the turtles were fine it's not like the script required them to show much acting range. Not to mention other BTS videos show they were overdoing their facial expressions and with what looks like last minute tinkering to make the faces a little more like what fans wanted as well altering Leonardo to look more like Johnny Knoxville it shows the justification that they wanted to show a real actors performance to be flimsy as hell.

(Heck the fact that most casual viewers praise the voices suggesting the thought the turtles were full cgi contracts really shows that the idea that these were real actors present on set didn't come across.)

While it's unlikely that they'll go with the Hellboy, WTWTA approach of suits with cgi to animate the faces and correct any parts the suits look rubbery really that's the best option. A common complaint even amongst those who enjoyed the movie was the lack of focus on the turtles and that's not going to change with two additional motion captured characters and should really put a damper on the idea the sequel will correct problems or be better than the movie we got.
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Old 01-22-2015, 03:42 AM   #67
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To be honest, the old rubber suits looked worse in places and better in places. The CGI looked better in places and worse in places. I'd say it ultimately doesn't matter too much if the movie is good in other areas.

TMNT1990 overcomes the occasional shoddiness of the puppets with a strong story, good characterization and great atmosphere.

The CGI in 2014 doesn't overcome the flaws of that film, but don't really detract from it either, since there's not much to detract from. Hell, the CGI is probably the best part of the film.
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Old 01-22-2015, 04:54 AM   #68
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The reasoning for NOT using suits to me seems backwords; they said that they couldn't do this stuff with suits. I don't think I need to see TMNT jumping from a rooftop to an open sewer and sliding down the drain. Nor sliding down the mountain. Nor any kind of sliding. They're ninjas. They don't slide.

Also the 1990 movie had far more ninja-esque fighting and they WERE using rubber suits.
So rubber suits = more restrictions on sliding = better TMNT movie.
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Old 01-22-2015, 09:44 AM   #69
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I will admit, the new Turtles movement was pretty damn restricted. but that doesn't change the fact that they looked 10x better and more realistic than the 1990 rubber suits. (I say this as a fan of the 1990 movie)
You guys need to stop living in your nostalgia bubbles and get with the times!
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Old 01-22-2015, 09:56 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Leolead View Post
I will admit, the new Turtles movement was pretty damn restricted. but that doesn't change the fact that they looked 10x better and more realistic than the 1990 rubber suits. (I say this as a fan of the 1990 movie)
Define "realistic". Because while the facial movements were more expressive with the CGI Turtles, at times they were overly expressive compared to natural acting; there was very little subtlety to it and their expressions could be pretty cartoony. The CGI Turtles were more detailed, but they weren't naturally detailed; they stuck out against the actual, natural characters they shared the screen with. And at no point did they look like they were actually a part of that environment to me - they looked like animation edited in, because that's exactly what they were. (Additionally, the whole visual style was over the top - highly contrasted and filtered with obnoxious camerawork. None of this helps things look "realistic".)

The 1990 suits had some restrictions, sure. But they absolutely looked like they were part of their environment. They blended far better than the CGI Turtles did, and the action choreography and stunt work in those suits holds up quite well to this day. Which is exactly how you sell the characters and their world. The 1990 movie just did it better. Sorry.

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You guys need to stop living in your nostalgia bubbles and get with the times!
Okay, listen. We've addressed this, at length, and you didn't bother replying to any of the very valid points people gave you. This is a dismissive attitude. New isn't automatically "better" and old isn't automatically "worse". It's not nostalgia - some things just work better than others in certain situations.

Honestly, the original plan for a new movie (before Laird sold the rights) had the best idea - with actors in detailed suits like the 1990 movie, but using CGI for the faces, touch-ups and extra expression. Using both tools for an all-around better result.
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Old 01-22-2015, 10:14 AM   #71
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I will admit, the new Turtles movement was pretty damn restricted. but that doesn't change the fact that they looked 10x better and more realistic than the 1990 rubber suits. (I say this as a fan of the 1990 movie)
You guys need to stop living in your nostalgia bubbles and get with the times!
I literally feel pain reading this post.
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Old 01-22-2015, 10:15 AM   #72
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You guys need to stop living in your nostalgia bubbles and get with the times!
How does this happen? Should I stop liking the parts of the early TMNT franchise? I've always been a fan of practical effects. I'm fine with you liking the new movie. Or CGI or whatever "get with the times" means.

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Old 01-22-2015, 10:54 AM   #73
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you should not forget how an effective lighting has influence on the feel of a movie...the new movie had a very abstract, unrealistic lighting in its scenes...always a digital flare in everything.and I always asked myself what they were thinking when working on the light...it seems sometimes to just lighting to distract from the cgi creatures...of course in this piece the lighting is created on a computer, too..aaaah, its so sad;(dont know what else to write...
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Old 01-22-2015, 11:43 AM   #74
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I just wanna say LeoLead does not speak for all people who like the 2014 movie. Stay in your nostalgia bubble all you want its fine to like the old and the new.
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Old 01-22-2015, 02:09 PM   #75
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always a digital flare in everything.and I always asked myself what they were thinking when working on the light
Yeah, I don't get all the lens flare use. I'd read Bay was big on them but was not overly familiar with his films and then saw in this movie just how true it was.

Lens flare may be a fun touch to add to the right things, esp if you're just an image or video hobbyist at home, but what does it try to convey in this film? That the Turtles are on a reality tv show and there is always someone there with a camera on them? It's like an attempt at breaking the 4th wall, but fails since it reminds us we're seeing through a camera... even when the lens flare is faked.

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Originally Posted by Ville Leskinen View Post
I don't think I need to see TMNT jumping from a rooftop to an open sewer and sliding down the drain. Nor sliding down the mountain. Nor any kind of sliding. They're ninjas. They don't slide.


Spoiler:
Meanwhile in my head there is the image of Raph climbing to the top of a playground slide, it buckles and collapses under his weight and he sits there like
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Old 01-22-2015, 02:11 PM   #76
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Let's get this thread back on topic; do you want any changes to the PD designs in TMNT 2?
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Old 01-22-2015, 02:18 PM   #77
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Let's get this thread back on topic; do you want any changes to the PD designs in TMNT 2?
Yes. Complete overhaul design wise.
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Old 01-22-2015, 02:47 PM   #78
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I didn't really pay enough attention to the movie to notice if Leo's face actually looked like that, but if it did then they should change that. He just looks silly.
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Old 01-22-2015, 02:56 PM   #79
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Yes. Complete overhaul design wise.

Top to bottom, front to back, then retcon the first film.
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Old 01-22-2015, 03:13 PM   #80
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I will admit, the new Turtles movement was pretty damn restricted. but that doesn't change the fact that they looked 10x better and more realistic than the 1990 rubber suits. (I say this as a fan of the 1990 movie)
Opinion, not fact.

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You guys need to stop living in your nostalgia bubbles and get with the times!
... seriously?

You know what these types of conversations are like? They're like trying to reason with The Black Knight from Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Even when you've been soundly defeated, you still think that you're the champion of the battlefield.



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I literally feel pain reading this post.
You're not alone. Want some of my Advil?

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Let's get this thread back on topic; do you want any changes to the PD designs in TMNT 2?
Yes. The designs are off-putting, overly busy and clunky - plenty of people have said that from the start. It won't happen though - they'll make enough changes to their outfits to be able to sell some new toys, but we'll still be stuck with the faces, the enormous builds and the oversized shells.
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