Has IDW TMNT Lost Its Edge?

[Sophie Campbell]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

That's a pretty fair post.

Though where does Nick draw the line, really? "The TMNT Shall Not Kill," OK, I get it, that's been clear since IDW TMNT began. Though can you guys have, like, at least Leonardo slice someone's tendon, disabling them? Raphael pinning someone's hand to the wall by ramming a sai into the palm, maybe? I feel like the answer even to things like that is "No," so it's not even as simple as just "The TMNT Shall Not Kill."

I don't know the nitty gritty details of the rule, and I don't know if there's an actual mandate written down or if it's more fluid and whatever seems right in the moment. I don't know what the exact limits of it are. I think it's probably more fluid than it seems, like the other poster mentioned Leo on the 2012 show beheading Shredder, like maybe Ciro convinced the PTB or caught them in a good mood.

I'm not sure about your other weapon examples, but I've gotten away with having Jennika draw blood with her claws (she is now also subject to the same rules as the other Turtles). In an early pitch I had Raph gouging out Hob's good eye.

In any case I'm trying to stick with what Tom set up for the most part, he did good work with the characters' stances on violence and the discussion around that.

[AquaParade]

Hearing a bit about restriction and mandates from Nick/Viacom really is fascinating.

[PizzaPower1985]

I remember thinking, by the time I got done with City Fall... "these IDW guys are doing incredible things with TMNT. this book has such an edge." then I got to Northampton... my god... Introspective brilliance! Just incredible. And I had never seen Sophie's art before and loved what she did for that story. It just got better as it went along... But somewhere along the way, I don't know, it had to be after Attack on the Technodrome arc, after Donnie's death, maybe even after Shredder's death in #50... something fell off! Not going to speak for anyone else... but for me, maybe it was too many characters... too much toon influence? I DON'T KNOW!

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by PizzaPower1985

I remember thinking, by the time I got done with City Fall... "these IDW guys are doing incredible things with TMNT. this book has such an edge." then I got to Northampton... my god... Introspective brilliance! Just incredible. And I had never seen Sophie's art before and loved what she did for that story. It just got better as it went along... But somewhere along the way, I don't know, it had to be after Attack on the Technodrome arc, after Donnie's death, maybe even after Shredder's death in #50... something fell off! Not going to speak for anyone else... but for me, maybe it was too many characters... too much toon influence? I DON'T KNOW!

For me, the wheels didn't come off entirely until "City at War". Like, I had the same complaints about "Vengeance" in retrospect, and seeing that the same thing was happening really did it for me. At least #50 had the huge fight between the Turtles and Shredder.

#100 didn't even have something like that.

Also, the Bishop reveal really bugged me, but that was more a specific issue.

The last IDW issue I really, really loved was Sophie's Leonardo Macro-Issue. Funnily enough, I seem to remember a lot of people here not liking it.

[miru]

I think it only lost its edge recently, but I appreciate the more laid-back recent content. It’s only natural to take breathers.

[Zage]

I'm still loving the series.

[Shark_Blade]

Same. I just love the bonding/brotherhood moments sprinkled across the issues. That’s the true “edge” in my opinion.

And also the violent fights, love em. Still reminiscing how Donnie’s “death” made the headline news globally.

[PizzaPower1985]

I have been rereading the IDW book again and... I think I have determined where it lost its edge. Again, not speaking for anyone but myself, but I found it. For me, it happens around the Chasing Phantoms arc. That doesn't take away from this arc or anything that followed at all either.

The idea that Waltz and Co. maintained TMNT to that high of a standard for so long (up into the 60's as far as issues go), in my mind, is no mean feat. It means, for me at least, that Waltz is one of the greatest writers working in the field today, as comics are simply not what they used to be, IMO. Back when Denny O'neil or Gerry Conway, Marv Wolfman, Len Wein or Chris Claremont could do that, in the 70's and 80's... it meant the writing was spectacular, and even then it was a rarity. Tom W. deserves to be commended big time!

I am especially happy that the IDW comic was not marketed to kids and that TMNT has at least one outlet that older fans like myself can enjoy.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by PizzaPower1985

I have been rereading the IDW book again and... I think I have determined where it lost its edge. Again, not speaking for anyone but myself, but I found it. For me, it happens around the Chasing Phantoms arc. That doesn't take away from this arc or anything that followed at all either.

The idea that Waltz and Co. maintained TMNT to that high of a standard for so long (up into the 60's as far as issues go), in my mind, is no mean feat. It means, for me at least, that Waltz is one of the greatest writers working in the field today, as comics are simply not what they used to be, IMO. Back when Denny O'neil or Gerry Conway, Marv Wolfman, Len Wein or Chris Claremont could do that, in the 70's and 80's... it meant the writing was spectacular, and even then it was a rarity. Tom W. deserves to be commended big time!

I am especially happy that the IDW comic was not marketed to kids and that TMNT has at least one outlet that older fans like myself can enjoy.

Interesting. What about that arc brought you to that conclusion?
I can’t remember it.

[CyberCubed]

Wasn't that the arc with the Street Phantoms if I'm remembering right?

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

Interesting. What about that arc brought you to that conclusion?
I can’t remember it.

What brought me to that conclusion, I guess, was that it felt like kind of the true beginning of a new direction for the series. The Vengeance arc ended with Shredder's death and the Splinter taking over the Foot Clan... then, the intro to Leatherhead happened. I guess after Saki died and seeing Splinter take over the Clan... it just didn't feel... the same. The Street Phantoms arc felt like it was beginning new territory... familiar, but new... if that makes sense. Still kinda trying to process all of it.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Wasn't that the arc with the Street Phantoms if I'm remembering right?

It was indeed. A great arc too... just different from the rest IMO with Saki being gone!

[hypered1]

Originally Posted by PizzaPower1985

What brought me to that conclusion, I guess, was that it felt like kind of the true beginning of a new direction for the series. The Vengeance arc ended with Shredder's death and the Splinter taking over the Foot Clan... then, the intro to Leatherhead happened. I guess after Saki died and seeing Splinter take over the Clan... it just didn't feel... the same. The Street Phantoms arc felt like it was beginning new territory... familiar, nut new... if that makes sense. Still kinda trying to process all of it.



It was indeed. A great arc too... just different from the rest IMO with Saki being gone!

I get what you're saying and I think it stems from Saki being a 'final boss' type character in many iterations (and Krang had been dealt with a few issues earlier), so where we knew that the original outline for the series would end at issue 50 everything since then has felt different because it was never as clear what the second/ third run of 50 issues was leading to.

[Metropoliskid41]

Honestly I’m surprised that the Turtles aren’t allowed to be more violent & kill in the IDW series. I say this because of 2 reasons:

1) Comic Books in the current market structure skew to older, more mature readers. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a big advocate for a plethora of all ages comics to hook kids & bring in a new generation of comic readers to keep the media going for future generations. I think this is especially important for Turtle comics. But the comic book industry, as viewed thru the lens of traditional comic book publisher (in which I include IDW) have a severe channel/route to market problem under the current Direct Market parameters. With comics, including the IDW TMNT comics, you have to go to a specialty store just to get your hands on the comics. That limited availability & exposure to kids limits the market and book appeal to people that can drive to their local comic shop(mine is about 40 miles away). I recognize that digital is a way to overcome those comic shop proximity hurdles, and many kids have smart phones these days, but are they really downloading TMNT comics? Scholastic is cracking the code with their line of Children’s comics and graphic novels, but until Nick & IDW don’t appear to be going with that route to market to get Turtles comics in schools & in front younger audiences yet.

2) Nick has put out scarier, darker TMNT stuff than killing would be in a comic book. I mean, in the 2012 cartoon, they literally had a cult of shredder worshipping monster people open a portal to hell & summon a red, winged demon to raise Shredder from the hell. The demon overcame Tigerclaw’s influence & tried to bring about the end of the world with an army of evil ghosts, while the turtles battled a demonic zombie monster shredder. That’s some pretty dark, creepy stuff man. Way darker than mirage level violence, IMO. Darker than the image vol 3 level of violence (which they also republished btw). And they’re worried about killing some masked ninjas occasionally? I wonder how much of the curtailing of violence is actually Nick and how much of it is maybe a choice in sensibility of tone by IDW instead?

[MikeandRaph87]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

For me, the wheels didn't come off entirely until "City at War". Like, I had the same complaints about "Vengeance" in retrospect, and seeing that the same thing was happening really did it for me. At least #50 had the huge fight between the Turtles and Shredder.

#100 didn't even have something like that.

Also, the Bishop reveal really bugged me, but that was more a specific issue.

The last IDW issue I really, really loved was Sophie's Leonardo Macro-Issue. Funnily enough, I seem to remember a lot of people here not liking it.

This is where our interest crossover. It was all that build up with Krang's trial only for it to be negated by Leatherhead swallowing Krang. I got over it and the fan art end especially with #86's tease of Krang being a parasite and I understand Slash's sacrifice even if I don't like it and it reminds me of how well Archie did until he sacrificed himself there. It was the Bishop reveal that was the tipping point for me in truth. I was thinking it was the scene in which Big Louie was name dropped only to die in two pages after praising IDW for bringing out the potential in old favorites. It turns out that was just the symbolic tipping point that IDW takes old characters and enhanced them breathing new life into them and the slaughter of the mob bosses symbolically showed that IDW no longer could what I gave them so much credit for.

Then City At War had a lot to wrap up that it rushed to a conclusion that left unsatisfactory. There was tying up the Metalhead gone rouge storyline, Agent Bishop's pursuit, Arnold Jones Sr./Hun and Karai's rebuilding herself before usurping the Clan. Finally all that and there really was no fight with the Pantheon Dragon. I did not care about Metalhead gone rogue storyline and felt that Hun while he died for his son could have come around on his hatred of mutants first. I hope with Agent Bishop dead that there can be a course correction and he can transfer his essence into clones like the 2003 cartoon and a follow up to him murdering his father in 'Desperate Measures'. So the edge was lost before this Mutant Town direction that I am not happy with at all, it just took me awhile to determine when it was. It just happen to worsen with the #101-105 arc.