DC Relaunching AGAIN

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

June 2020 Solicitations

https://www.newsarama.com/49409-dc-c...citations.html

No Generation 2 one-shot solicited...already the next phase for DC is in trouble.

Three Jokers #1? FINALLY.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Three Jokers #1? FINALLY.

And while he's credited on that, Geoff isn't writing Shazam that month.

[MikeandRaph87]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Another Supersons story with the younger Jon coming to the 80th anniversary Robin special

https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/previe...ersary-special

How many stories do we expect? I am curious as to how much Dick Grayson will get. I hope its not just one story.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

How many stories do we expect? I am curious as to how much Dick Grayson will get. I hope its not just one story.

My guess is he should have at least at least two, maybe at the beginning and towards the end

[ZariusTwo]

Aquaman#58 preview

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2020/03...imeless-child/

So barely one issue in and we've already 'aged up' Arthur and Mera's kid by ten months? And Mera's spent that whole time in a coma so the baby's never known her mother? Man, DC always have to twist the knife on positive outcomes. Thank god Didio is gone, I know the knock-on effect won't be felt for months, so expect more b.s to come

[Leo656]

To be fair, with regard to comic books in general and super-hero comics in particular, "positive outcomes" are completely opposed to the idea of having the stories continue. Absolutely nobody wants to read stories about well-adjusted super-heroes with happy personal lives, because while it might be occasionally "sweet" it's far more often sappy and boring. Kinda like the "super-heroes sitting and talking over coffee, or waiting in line at the bank." Too mundane, no conflict, no reason to really be taking up lots of real estate in books about people who can fly or summon lightning or whatever. They might write fanfiction about it, but that's absolutely not what anyone in the majority sense gets into this genre of storytelling to see. The entire medium is based on Super-Sized Conflict and the extremely over-the-top and batsh*t-crazy resolutions to those conflicts.

I'm absolutely not one of those "super-heroes can't ever get married and/or have families" type of guys, BUT, I kinda figured out really early on that whenever anything like that comes to pass, it really CAN only be as the prelude to the inevitable "knife-twisting", as you put it. Wonder-Guy marries Indestructible-Girl? Great; she's probably a clone, or an alien sleeper agent, or maybe he's been two-timing her with Boob-Window Lass. Bulletproof Guy and Run-Fast Broad have a baby? Great, that means he's gonna get killed by some super-villain before he's out of diapers because nothing's gonna piss off the hero more than THAT, and the stories about him struggling with grief and loss are gonna be a lot more engaging than subplots about changing diapers and whatnot.

I feel like sometimes it's best to remember exactly what medium these stories are taking place in before we develop strong feelings about certain developments. "Positive outcomes" would simply wreck everything, and that's why they only exist as a precursor to even greater tragedy. I feel like it's to be expected at this point; they've only been printing these things for 80 years. We should all know full well what we're getting into by now.

[MikeandRaph87]

In addition to my Flash related questions above, Dc is putting out a 100 page special for Robin and one for The Joker. If DC wanted to make money and produce potential quality they could have done a Dick Grayson at 80 and a Robin at 80 because I am not interested in celebrating the costume, just Mr. Grayson he is 80. Did we ever get a list of stories in this special or the Joker one? I am already down for the 70s' variant cover, but I get tired of the Joker popping everywhere every month. If its stories like the Bronze Age Joker then I am all for it, if its analyzing the character to death I am going to pass on it. Joker is already set to interfere in both my Detective Comics and Batgirl pulls.

[Leo656]

I kinda miss the period of the mid-80s through 1993 or so when Joker only showed up every few years and it would be a huge deal, then he'd vanish again and all the other characters would only speak of him in hushed tones for fear that he'd actually show up again if people started talking about him out loud. He was a much more effective villain and his stories were much more memorable.

Part of me wants to say the '89 movie "ruined" it, because they had to market him heavily after that, and they did bring him back in the comics very shortly afterwards after a very long absence, but he still really didn't start showing up a LOT until after Knightfall, which was still a couple of years off. They still sold plenty of lunchboxes even when he wasn't in the books every month or so, so while I'd like to blame the film for kickstarting "Jokermania", the truth is that's an oversimplification.

I think it's just that he's the "Omega" to Batman's "Alpha" in so many words, and every writer wants to do a Joker story (or two... or three...) and then they all get their chance and then it's altogether too much. And I do get that; nobody aims for the Batman writing gig in the hopes that they'll be pitting him against Calendar Man, or that they'll get to do their big Killer Moth revamp. I'm pretty sure that every single writer who's pitched themselves to do Batman for at least the last 20 years has done so by pitching a Joker story.

Makes sense, it just really hurts the character. Back when he was a shadowy "force of nature" and you hardly ever actually saw the guy... THAT was when it was Money. When he's showing up in two or three or more books, almost every single month... Eh, now he's just another gimmick. Nah'mean?

[MikeandRaph87]

If you want to see an effective Joker story and it be small scale yet memorable?
Look at Detective Comics #833/834 and Detective Comics#1008. Both are very good. Yes, Riddler comes first and then Mr. Freeze follows, but I like the Joker. Used in modern comics referenced above is what needs to happen ( and less often if you know what I mean).

So when did Captain Cold become a father?

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I kinda miss the period of the mid-80s through 1993 or so when Joker only showed up every few years and it would be a huge deal, then he'd vanish again and all the other characters would only speak of him in hushed tones for fear that he'd actually show up again if people started talking about him out loud. He was a much more effective villain and his stories were much more memorable.

Part of me wants to say the '89 movie "ruined" it, because they had to market him heavily after that, and they did bring him back in the comics very shortly afterwards after a very long absence, but he still really didn't start showing up a LOT until after Knightfall, which was still a couple of years off. They still sold plenty of lunchboxes even when he wasn't in the books every month or so, so while I'd like to blame the film for kickstarting "Jokermania", the truth is that's an oversimplification.

I think it's just that he's the "Omega" to Batman's "Alpha" in so many words, and every writer wants to do a Joker story (or two... or three...) and then they all get their chance and then it's altogether too much. And I do get that; nobody aims for the Batman writing gig in the hopes that they'll be pitting him against Calendar Man, or that they'll get to do their big Killer Moth revamp. I'm pretty sure that every single writer who's pitched themselves to do Batman for at least the last 20 years has done so by pitching a Joker story.

Makes sense, it just really hurts the character. Back when he was a shadowy "force of nature" and you hardly ever actually saw the guy... THAT was when it was Money. When he's showing up in two or three or more books, almost every single month... Eh, now he's just another gimmick. Nah'mean?

Definitely.

Although I think some of the recent Joker stories have been great, like "Death of the Family" or "Endgame." Hoping "Joker War" is good.

[Leo656]

I always liked the one they did where Joker came out of "retirement" after killing Jason Todd (and being riddled with machine gun bullets on that helicopter) because an impostor was trying to usurp his identity. It was only a two-parter, I think.

It was neat for lots of reasons. For one, it was a type of Joker story that we hadn't ever seen before, particularly because it showed him in a point of extreme weakness and in a defensive position; having almost died from being gut-shot multiple times and being on the helicopter when it crashed into the water (and in fact coming far closer to death than ever before) had left him physically and mentally broken, and he essentially had to re-learn how to BE "The Joker" all over again from scratch. It was very cool in the first place to actually SEE a comic book character, especially such a major one, and a villain to boot, having to convalesce and recover after such a violent near-death experience; let's be honest, we're all basically used to characters being shot or stabbed or blown up and then they magically just show up later and they're perfectly fine without explanation, because "That's Comics", so seeing The Joker of all people struggling to even stand or walk and in incredible pain many months later was oddly humanizing but also extremely interesting. I mean, The Joker by definition is a source of incredible trauma for so many, including Batman, so seeing HIM being the one who was traumatized was a nice change of pace, even though, of course, he never learns anything or even considers that it was his own actions that led him to such ruin in the first place.

For another thing, it was a rare look inside the man's head, how he thinks, what he values, etc., which was neat because it's a thing we almost never see with that particular character. Multiple "Killing Joke" flashbacks (with minor deviations), particularly as he tried to re-trace his steps and re-enact his own origins so he could "remember" how to be The Joker, which was also cool because I personally hold that story as Joker's (mostly) definitive origin, and this story strongly upholds that position as well, with with the importance of The Red Hood and everything. And also, his pride, with him reacting and being forced to finally "snap out of it" because a poor impostor was ruining his reputation was also fun to see, and the story did a great job of explaining to the reader some of the particulars and subtleties of the Joker's entire persona and methodology (such as how Batman and even Gordon can tell right away that it's a false Joker on the loose before they even confront him, because of his obsession with bad jokes and, as Joker himself points out, his "lack of style").

Also, the story created a unique conflict and set of circumstances, while finally bringing a sense of closure in a sense to some of the more recent Joker stories of the era, which had been left mostly-unresolved. Before this one, the last two Joker stories had been "The Killing Joke", which left Barbara Gordon crippled, and "A Death In The Family", which left Robin dead, and after the latter the Joker had disappeared without ever being brought in. So it was uncomfortable but also interesting to see Batman, Commissioner Gordon, and Joker temporarily sharing a common enemy in this fake Joker, even though they're not "working together" specifically, and in the end when the fake is done away with and they're left to finally confront the real one, both Gordon and Batman illustrate why they're the Good Guys by putting aside their personal desire to finally kill the bastard, even if deep down we all know that's not a great idea.

I can't remember the issue numbers, or the name of the story specifically, and I can't find much about it otherwise, but I always liked that one a whole lot, just for how different and cerebral it was. It would have been published around 1990 or so. I'll be honest, when DC announced they were doing a "Three Jokers" thing, that was the first thing I thought of. We'll see where they take that particular angle, but I can't help but think about how strongly that would go against a lot of what's already been established. I know that a lot of 80s and 90s stuff is "soft canon" at best nowadays, but I have a feeling that whatever they come up with won't ultimately be satisfying enough to replace what we're asked to ignore. We'll see, I guess.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I can't remember the issue numbers, or the name of the story specifically, and I can't find much about it otherwise, but I always liked that one a whole lot, just for how different and cerebral it was.

I have the story, both in a (torn to shreds) UK collectors edition and the original issues. I think it was my first 'modern' Joker story and my introduction to "Death In The Family" because of the flashback material. I was like 'Holy homicide Batman, Robin's DEAD?'

[Leo656]

I'm glad that someone knows what I'm talking about! I did a little Googling but wasn't able to find much about the story without the issue numbers, and I can't get to my Batman box right now. I remember that the impostor Joker's last name was "Base" and that he was a rich con artist type who was using the Joker con as a side hustle to swindle people out of their money (along with killing them for kicks afterwards), but otherwise not enough to do a search on. Glad you knew what I was talking about. I think my own copies are beat up, too. I really hope I can fix that.

Y'know what was another great story that came out in the fallout, and in turn referenced, Jason's death? "Mud Pack", over in Detective Comics. I. LOVE. Mud Pack. It was seriously neat seeing these literal clay-monsters who are "real" super-villains being so fearful of an old psycho in a stage mask, just because he was such a f*cking sadist and psychopath. Basil Karlo was f*cking awesome. I love that story. That one part where Batman's hallucinating Jason taunting him for letting him die was twisted. And the cover, with Batman weeping over Jason's grave while Jason's "ghost" pointed at him accusingly was so chilling, as a kid. Breyfogle was so, SO great at drawing Batman.

Sigh. Those were the days. Not that there haven't been great stories since, obviously. But nowadays everything has to be an "Epic", and back then you could get such rich and memorable stories in two or four issues at most. And it was all within the regular books, as well; no need for all the tie-in mini-series and all that stuff. Everything is inverted, now; back then, if it was "important", it happened in the main books. Nowadays, the main books just plant seeds for the stories that will be paid off in the next event and mini-series. Frankly, I miss the "good old days". When Batman wasn't invincible or infallible, his villains weren't all Jigsaw-type murderers and he wasn't regularly punching out "actual" super-villains who are more in Superman's league, and you only needed to buy two books per month to know everything going on with his universe. It is what it is, but even if it was a simpler time, I feel that the stories still hold up.

This has been fun, I think I'm gonna try and get into my long boxes later and look for some'a this stuff.

[MikeandRaph87]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I'm glad that someone knows what I'm talking about! I did a little Googling but wasn't able to find much about the story without the issue numbers, and I can't get to my Batman box right now. I remember that the impostor Joker's last name was "Base" and that he was a rich con artist type who was using the Joker con as a side hustle to swindle people out of their money (along with killing them for kicks afterwards), but otherwise not enough to do a search on. Glad you knew what I was talking about. I think my own copies are beat up, too. I really hope I can fix that.

Y'know what was another great story that came out in the fallout, and in turn referenced, Jason's death? "Mud Pack", over in Detective Comics. I. LOVE. Mud Pack. It was seriously neat seeing these literal clay-monsters who are "real" super-villains being so fearful of an old psycho in a stage mask, just because he was such a f*cking sadist and psychopath. Basil Karlo was f*cking awesome. I love that story. That one part where Batman's hallucinating Jason taunting him for letting him die was twisted. And the cover, with Batman weeping over Jason's grave while Jason's "ghost" pointed at him accusingly was so chilling, as a kid. Breyfogle was so, SO great at drawing Batman.

Sigh. Those were the days. Not that there haven't been great stories since, obviously. But nowadays everything has to be an "Epic", and back then you could get such rich and memorable stories in two or four issues at most. And it was all within the regular books, as well; no need for all the tie-in mini-series and all that stuff. Everything is inverted, now; back then, if it was "important", it happened in the main books. Nowadays, the main books just plant seeds for the stories that will be paid off in the next event and mini-series. Frankly, I miss the "good old days". When Batman wasn't invincible or infallible, his villains weren't all Jigsaw-type murderers and he wasn't regularly punching out "actual" super-villains who are more in Superman's league, and you only needed to buy two books per month to know everything going on with his universe. It is what it is, but even if it was a simpler time, I feel that the stories still hold up.

This has been fun, I think I'm gonna try and get into my long boxes later and look for some'a this stuff.

Main thing about the Joker returning after Death In The Family is it was too soon. The arc ended in #428, he was shown recovering in #442 at the conclusion of A Lonely Place of Dying and fully appeared in #451. Why not wait until the arc ahead of Knightfall? I did like the two parter that he returned in, its just it was too soon.


Basil at that point was a clay masked killer. He was killed off in Detective Comics#480 and was older. Not only is he alive again but he becomes what Clayface is. It was also odd him tracking down a fragment of Hagen, who had defined the alias and he could not revive him. Mud Pack was an interesting idea. I am surprised it was not followed up especially with Clayface III and Lady Clay becoming a couple.

[Leo656]

That was still almost two years in real-time, though, and that's pretty reasonable. And like I said, I feel like DC felt a certain obligation to bring him back after the movie became such a phenomenon. They probably wouldn't have waited much longer anyway, but I do feel that they bumped the return up a few months after the movie was a hit. It HAD to have been a factor, I mean the Joker's face was on more merch than Batman was, for all of 1989 and 1990. DC would have been slightly irresponsible not to capitalize on it in print. I feel that they did the best they could, and they still only had him pop up sparingly for the next few years after.

After the fake Joker story, I don't remember him showing up again until "Robin II: Joker's Wild", which is very dated thanks to all the computer stuff, but still a lot of fun and an important story in Tim's evolution as Robin. After that he only ever showed up briefly as an Arkham inmate until Bane broke everyone out at the start of Knightfall. So they kept him involved without making him a constant presence, and other than Joker's Wild he wasn't even the focal point of any stories he appeared in, such as "The Last Arkham" where he's in a couple of panels and has one line of dialog, and Knightfall where he's just one bit player among many and Bane is the star.

They managed to bring him back and use him effectively without oversaturating everything with Joker stuff, is my point. Maybe they could've waited a *little* longer, or spaced things out a *little* more, but all in all I think they did fine. One great thing about that whole era of Batman comics, was how well they juggled the Big Villain stories with the "Small" stories, like The Crimesmith. Remember that one? Nobody does! But it was good. I'unno, things just felt like they had a more natural ebb and flow, back then; it wasn't strictly "Epics" and "Filler", everything had its own little rhythm and it all flowed together nicely. And even the one or two-issue stories with a villain you'd never see again, still had enough going on in them to make them feel like they mattered in the big picture and were still good stories in themselves. There wasn't this constant need for each thing to be bigger and more bombastic than the last thing. I miss it.

[MikeandRaph87]

https://www.cbr.com/joker-batman-nig...k-ric-grayson/

So Dick's memories are kept in a crystal and the key to his memory restoration? How exactly does that work? This is as dumb as Barbara having her memory wiped and having to relearn everything by listening to a series of cassette tapes.

[ZariusTwo]

DC Comics' Printer Closes Tomorrow

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2020/03...oses-tomorrow/

[MikeandRaph87]

So three weeks of comics held off? My LCS planned to remain normal hours, but as of tomorrow state-wide non-essential locations must shutter for 30 days. I suppose this is an industry-wide thing since its Diamond Distribution.

[CyberCubed]

So what happens to all comics scheduled for May and June? Is everything going to be pushed back? Or still come out?

[MikeandRaph87]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

So what happens to all comics scheduled for May and June? Is everything going to be pushed back? Or still come out?

It gives DC time to scrap the 5G unwanted direction as it was already missing in the June solicits.