Will TMNT return to its roots like Batman did?

[wpugh2424]

Originally Posted by Wildcat

I think there will be a more adult-oriented movie eventually.

Making a more mature version of so-and-so is a “thing” in the entertainment industry. Especially for superheroes/comics.

Within reason obviously. It’s not gonna be some super gruesome or overly violent take. There’s no reason for that. I don’t think I’d want that either.

Under Nick there has barely been 2 cartoon series and 1 movie “series”. Not gonna count them as 2 since they were 1 version. Give it some time.

I hope you are right

[80gmrp]

Originally Posted by wpugh2424

I hope you are right

Indeed.

What I do know is that I have a friend who, like me, is into classic content. That said, he actually firmly believes TMNT went downhill as soon as the 80s cartoon, at least from a production standpoint. However, he did tell me he enjoyed the concepts behind the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles And Other Strangeness RPG from 1985, telling me “The whole idea of mutant animal people living on the underside of human civilization is fascinating.” While I never gave that much thought until he brought it up, I suppose revisiting those non-turtle-specific ideas could also be an option.

[Leo656]

I've always found it interesting that TMNT fans come in generally two flavors, insofar as how they want their "world" to be represented, and they're polar opposite extremes. There's the "The Turtles and Splinter should essentially be the only mutants, give or take one or two, because any more than that makes the Turtles less special" camp, and on the flip side, the "Cram as many mutants and weirdos in there as possible, because that kinda crazy sh*t is exactly what I signed up for!" camp.

I don't really have much preference, and there's logic in either, but with such a deep divide on numerous things within the lore, not just that one thing, I'm always a little surprised the whole thing has even lasted so long. I also don't envy the creators who have to generate new content, much as I give them sh*t all the time. One side of the franchise is completely the opposite of the other, they totally can't be reconciled, and most people are pretty sure their preference is what's best, so while you're never gonna please everyone anyway, it's harder than usual with TMNT because it's inherently so bipolar.

It's kinda why I hate whenever a new "dramatically different" version comes out. The whole thing's already fractured enough, ain't it?

[d_osborn]

Here's a good spot for my quarterly pie-in-the-sky wish post for John Fusco's Nolan/Batman-inspired TMNT script leak.

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I don't really have much preference, and there's logic in either, but with such a deep divide on numerous things within the lore, not just that one thing, I'm always a little surprised the whole thing has even lasted so long. I also don't envy the creators who have to generate new content, much as I give them sh*t all the time.

So if you were put in charge of the franchise how would you proceed with TMNT? What would be the most suitable way forward do you think?

[Leo656]

It should be no surprise to anyone who knows me that I'd start with the 1990 film as my foundation and go from there. Visually, musically, stylistically, I think that's as close to "perfect" as it gets. It's Mirage-based, but has enough little bits of the FW cartoon, like pizza, bad jokes and some of the personality traits, to make fans of that area still feel familiar.

From there, I'd still try and incorporate stuff from various other familiar versions on a limited and case-by-case basis, because you still need stuff like Leatherhead and the Utroms and Karai, but they'd need to be presented in a way that feels consistent with the existing tone. Not just, "Hey, 'member THIS?" as it's sometimes been done.

I'm not entirely comfortable whenever someone asks me things like this, because I've never once tried to run a company or sell a strip, so there's no guarantee my "Grand Plan" would even make a dime. But as to my specific preference of what I'd like to see, and what "TMNT as done by me" would resemble, it would more or less be presented and set in the style of the original film. Some people argue that there was too much human focus in the film, but without touching that either way I still think the basic presentation of that film is exactly what TMNT should be, what it should look, feel, and sound like.

I mean... me repeatedly saying "The 1990 film is all I even look at anymore" for years didn't tip you off?

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by Leo656

It should be no surprise to anyone who knows me that I'd start with the 1990 film as my foundation and go from there. Visually, musically, stylistically, I think that's as close to "perfect" as it gets. It's Mirage-based, but has enough little bits of the FW cartoon, like pizza, bad jokes and some of the personality traits, to make fans of that area still feel familiar.

So you'd want the 1990 movie replicated and developed through comics, cartoons and movies? One of the problems you face with this idea is that the movie is of a different era. The PD movies are very much stuck in a world of mobile phones, digital tech, etc. Obviously they're going to do the same with a future iteration in the present to make it relevant but then by doing that and adding those elements it will stop being the 1990 movie style. I notice a lot of TV and films today (especially the Marvel movies) focus way more on advanced tech than they need to.

Is it also possible to present the atmosphere of the late 20th Century in a post 9/11 world and it's politics? Stylistically we're also looking at the grainy grittiness of the 1990 movie replaced with endless teal instead which no one in their right mind would want. Again we can go back to what you say about using the 1990 movie as a starting off point but with all the changes they'd have to make for today's society would it even resemble what you liked back in that movie? I do like your idea but only if it retained that feel.

Originally Posted by Leo656

I mean... me repeatedly saying "The 1990 film is all I even look at anymore" for years didn't tip you off?

To be honest it passed me by.

[Leo656]

I think you're over-thinking it just a smidge.

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I think you're over-thinking it just a smidge.

Well I'm just thinking worst case scenarios and whether it would end up working.

[Galactus]

I don't see Batman '89 as so much a return to Batman's roots even though there are definite golden age influences particularly in the earlier drafts on the movie's scripts but mainly it was a distillation of the Batman comics of the time. Stylistically Dark Knight Returns, The Killing Joke were the big influences on movie and even though the whole gothic version of Gotham was introduced in the movie you could argue it came from the Noir depiction of the city in things like Year One or the more stylized art that was popping up a lot in Batman comics at the time.

If TMNT followed a similar path then we'd get IDW influences (not a bad start) with Rise of the TMNT (KILL IT). Thankfully I don't see that happening, the TV show will probably be gone and rebooted again before proper development on another movie starts.

If there's any recent TMNT media I'd prefer to see be an influence it's the first Batman crossover. The turtles look on point, stylistically it could be seen as going back to TMNT's roots as Batman's world is darker. It has some heart and the pizza and surfer slang is present but largely kept it check. Since the Platinum Dunes folk are aware of it I'd hope they at least skim it.

As for returning to the franchise's roots; I little little faith in that happening but a honestly I have a smidgen more now than if it was still under Mirage.

It should be said that while Laird seemed to outgrow the stylistically dark, street level stories in his own work he clearly knew it was a big part of the appeal of the franchise and did fight to keep it present outside the comics during his stewardship of the franchise in the 2000s and saw that he was able to curb the worst excesses of what other companies wanted to do with the characters and had some leeway of putting them in the general direction of where he wanted to go he was still one man as the head of a small company and was often overruled or at times too tired and let certain things slide.

Being owned Nickelodeon might make it seem like like they'd want to go fully into the Fred Wolf route and certainly that's the impression we were given at the time of sale but honestly that hasn't been their natural impulse.

I thought for sure we'd see the return of the colour coded pads and initialised belt buckles and the party wagon driving around sunlit streets so I know I wasn't the only one that was pleasantly surprised when the first concept art and thought "oh this isn't quite as kiddie as thought it would be". The show itself was aimed at young kids but it certainly took more Mirage elements than anything else. After a while legit 80s show elements were introduced but it took some time.

Likewise making the 80s show in live action wasn't the natural impulse when it came to movies. We know earlier versions of the first Platinum Dunes movie were supposed to be "darker" and "mature" although I dread to think what Bay and Liebesman associate with those words. The movie itself was crap but not because they chose a edgier aesthetic. The sad part is that was the takeaway of why the movie under performed so for the sequel went full Fred Wolf and full "embrace the goofy" but yeah that outright flopped.

If there is any silver lining is that Platinum Dunes has openly acknowledged that it flopped and is not making the same excuses some of the apologists for any TMNT product incessantly shouted like it had a poor release date or people were put off by the first PD movie (even though they all argued that was great too). Nemec and Applebaum have acknowledged that simply adding more characters is not the way to go.

Beyond that they need to look at why the 2014 movie was a decent hit despite it looking "too dark" and the TMNT movie every kid (apparently) dreamed of failed spectacularly. Maybe the original approach with the first wasn't so far off the mark.

If nothing else a back to basic approach may have to be on the table out of sheer necessity. It's not like after Out Of The Shadows lost so much money that Paramount will be investing alien invasion kinda money into TMNT. Street level, Shredder, not hugely cgi heavy is at very least got to be an option for practicalities sake.

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by Galactus

The sad part is that was the takeaway of why the movie under performed so for the sequel went full Fred Wolf and full "embrace the goofy" but yeah that outright flopped.

It was the wrong movie and wrong style to merge the FW style with. To do a live action version of the FW cartoon they would need to start from scratch. The failure of the sequel was having the 2014 Bay style with the FW influences tacked on. It just doesn't work as they are both opposites. Either adapt the style fully or don't.

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by pferreira

It was the wrong movie and wrong style to merge the FW style with. To do a live action version of the FW cartoon they would need to start from scratch. The failure of the sequel was having the 2014 Bay style with the FW influences tacked on. It just doesn't work as they are both opposites. Either adapt the style fully or don't.

While I think the Bay turtle designs look weirder when the "edgy" elements are sanded off in every other respect they did a reasonable approximation of what a Fred Wolf movie in 2015 would look like.

Bebop and Rocksteady, Krang all looked very on point and for the five seconds it was fully assembled the Technodrome looked as it should, eye ball and all. While I roll my eyes at the penis jokes all the Fred Wolf exclusive characters had the personalities they should.

If anything I think they were too literal with interpreting the Fred Wolf show. The search for the three mcguffins was clearly based on three Eyes of Sarnath even down to naming Baxter's computer O.M.N.S.S.

It basically had the same ending to the first season. Donatello reprograms the Techndrome and it is sucked into Dimension-X slowly enough for the turtles to escape.

I wouldn't be surprised if the turtles becoming humans subplot was culled from "The Gangs All Here".

The sad part is I believe that Platinum Dunes thought fans would love all this stuff but frankly while not disliked or anything I don't think the Eyes of Sarnath sticks out as a highlight of the series and while I'd argue the first season of the Fred Wolf show is among the best Saturday Morning Animation of the 80s I know I'd not alone in thinking the anti-climactic ending is not something I wanted to see repeated and well "The Gangs All Here" is generally one of the least liked episodes of the 80s series.

Ironically I think what a good Fred Wolf based in modern times would be even closer to the Bay style. Technodrome blasting buildings, air force trying to getting past their shields, Rock Soldiers fighting ground forces while the turtles infiltrate the Technodrome somehow. It's certainly not the movie I want but it would have been more engaging than what we got. Budget clearly played a part in that.

Regardless the 80s show was represented well enough and yet people turned their noses up at it. I don't think any version of the show is the silver bullet to commercial success that some fans and I'm sure many in the industry have long believed.

For the record the same is probably true for Mirage or 2K3 or IDW inspired movies. There is no one version of TMNT that is popular enough on it's own that simply saying they are making one is enough for commercial success. That being said I do think the above versions are creatively better materials to draw on to make a good movie that if played right could be a hit.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by Galactus

Rock Soldiers fighting ground forces while the turtles infiltrate the Technodrome somehow.

Or let the United States Airforce fire at Krang's weather maker (only to realize some kind of forefield prevents it), while the turtles infiltrate the Technodrome beneath Manhattan.