Are (Your) Turtles Killers?

[Andrew NDB]

I'm sure we can dig deep into history or folk tales from Japanese villages and find something, you know, about Ryu, the Noble Ninja who baked bread for the homeless and refused to kill anyone or something, or Bob Hatsu, the ninja who used to ward off crows from farmlands and stopped thieves... but the simple fact is, that's not the kind of ninja the TMNT were written to be or ever intended to be.

Not ever. Eastman and Laird were crystal clear about what kind of ninja the TMNT are intended to be right there in Mirage vol. 1, #1.

[Monte Williams]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Eastman and Laird were crystal clear about what kind of ninja the TMNT are intended to be right there in Mirage vol. 1, #1.

Ah, volume 1, #1... which Andrew would have us all believe is the One Ring. The Bible. The only possible version of the franchise.

You know what else Eastman and Laird did?

Sold the entire property so other people could interpret it.

Sing a different tune, man. You've used this same pedantic, fussy, non-compromising tone for years on this forum.

Why someone who is so clearly dead set against a dialogue would join a forum is something I will never understand.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Monte Williams

Ah, volume 1, #1... which Andrew would have us all believe is the One Ring. The Bible. The only possible version of the franchise.

It's the only one beyond maybe the first movie that's not unabashedly made for little toy-buying kids.

Points to IDW for doing... fairly well. But Nick has their hands tied.

You know what else Eastman and Laird did?

Sold the entire property so other people could interpret it.

Pretty sure they only sold it to make a lot of money. Or in Laird's case, more personal reasons... but "so let's see what others will interpret" was definitely not one of them.

[IndigoErth]

Characters grow, ya know.

What writer (no matter what kind of writing), fully knows what their characters will ultimately grow into down the road when only writing the first chapter/issue? After all, when they wrote the first they didn't originally have intention for it to continue. They were what they wanted them to be in that first book, but why shouldn't they grow and develop beyond that when they got to know their characters more. And it's not like they didn't.

But, dear Andrew, we know to you what's "right" is very limited and fits neatly in a small box of "right" things...

Your prerogative and right to prefer it the way you do, but you're gonna give yourself a hernia over believing everyone else so "wrong" all the time or giving a damn over other people's rightful preferred take on it; esp when they're basing it on canon you don't like, but canon none the less.

[Jester]

I dunna, they are pretty friendly with a force for justice....

Just sayin'.

[Monte Williams]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

It's the only one beyond maybe the first movie that's not unabashedly made for little toy-buying kids.

And every one of those iterations designed for little toy-buying kids is completely legit and relevant and has an audience of its own.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Pretty sure they only sold it to make a lot of money. Or in Laird's case, more personal reasons... but "so let's see what others will interpret" was definitely not one of them.

Way to miss the point. If they were so concerned with the true meaning of ninja in their property, they'd have retained the rights. They'd have never let the property become a cartoon in the '80s, let alone a merchandizing juggernaut emblazoned on cereal boxes and paper plates and who knows what else.

Your condescending one-note tantrums are convincing nobody. You are an intelligent, enthusiastic person, but damn if your contributions aren't inane and predictable and closed-minded.

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

Characters grow, ya know.

[nerdrage all caps]That is totally unacceptable! Mirage only! Trukk not munky![/nerdrage all caps] etc.

Originally Posted by Panda_Kahn_fan

They have human friends in every version, and strive to protect not only those friends, but any human in need they come across. They have been blatantly made heroes in 4 kids, the next mutation, and several other versions where Eastman or Laird were in control... cases where they actively chose to make them heroes...

Apparently you missed that this is the Mirage Volume 1, #1 Forum, so your comment is invalid.

[Monte Williams]

Originally Posted by Panda_Kahn_fan

you missed my quote from that exact issue, that makes the whole argument invalid to begin with.

Oops! Ha ha ha!

[plastroncafe]

Has there been an incarnation of the Turtles where they haven't implied a killer instinct in one way or another?

I mean, even FW had Raphael stabbing a Footbot in what would have been a pretty lethal blow had it been human and not a robot that went klang.

2k3 had the Utrom Shredder reveal by beheading.

[Krutch]

I think what I adore most about this franchise is it's flexibility to adapt to whatever box you want to put it in effortlessly.

TMNT meets Spawn and heads into Hell to fight the Devil and his army? Sure, makes sense.
TMNT meets John Cena and has to solve the mystery of who stole the Money in the Bank suitcase? Sure, I can see that, too.

It's one of the most endearing qualities of the product.

So are they killers? Sure. Sometimes. Or depending on the iteration, absolutely not. Ever.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by Monte Williams

And every one of those iterations designed for little toy-buying kids is completely legit and relevant and has an audience of its own.




Way to miss the point. If they were so concerned with the true meaning of ninja in their property, they'd have retained the rights. They'd have never let the property become a cartoon in the '80s, let alone a merchandizing juggernaut emblazoned on cereal boxes and paper plates and who knows what else.

Your condescending one-note tantrums are convincing nobody. You are an intelligent, enthusiastic person, but damn if your contributions aren't inane and predictable and closed-minded.




[nerdrage all caps]That is totally unacceptable! Mirage only! Trukk not munky![/nerdrage all caps] etc.




Apparently you missed that this is the Mirage Volume 1, #1 Forum, so your comment is invalid.

But the turtles do kill in battle. Even in the most recent volume 4 they didn't shy from killing in battle. If Laird comes back to wrap up volume 4 in 2020 or whatever, there will be deaths.

Its not just mirage 1 #1. What about volumes 2 and 4?

And the characters don't grow? Again, volume 2 and 4. Hell city at war even helped casey and April's characters grow.

[Wildcat]

For me no. They only kill "true evil" like Nick or 4kids Shredder. In my head-canon they don't kill just because they can or to stop any 'ol enemy. That would be arrogant and mindless.

I have not read any comics. I know it was originally more violent but beyond Mirage 1 or whatever I have no idea what the tone is then or now.

I agree Ninjas are not primarily meant to be killers. I mean if I learn martial arts doesn't mean I plan to be some kind of assassin. I could do it to for self defense or to defend others. Carrying weapons doesn't equal intent to kill.

[Monte Williams]

Originally Posted by Krutch

I think what I adore most about this franchise is it's flexibility to adapt to whatever box you want to put it in effortlessly.

TMNT meets Spawn and heads into Hell to fight the Devil and his army? Sure, makes sense.
TMNT meets John Cena and has to solve the mystery of who stole the Money in the Bank suitcase? Sure, I can see that, too.

It's one of the most endearing qualities of the product.

So are they killers? Sure. Sometimes. Or depending on the iteration, absolutely not. Ever.

This. All the this.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

Characters grow, ya know.

Or de-volve.

Ya know.

Your prerogative and right to prefer it the way you do, but you're gonna give yourself a hernia over believing everyone else so "wrong" all the time or giving a damn over other people's rightful preferred take on it; esp when they're basing it on canon you don't like, but canon none the less.

A hernia? Hardly. It's not on my radar at all. Why would it be?

Originally Posted by Panda_Kahn_fan

In most versions besides Mirage,

Ah, so most versions other than the source material. As long as we're clear on that.

No, they are not 'super heroes' actively seeking out criminals to stop, but they go on patrols to sharpen their ninja skills, and any person they see being attacked, they save. To the grateful people who they have rescued from muggers or murderers, I think they wouldn't care if their rescuers were active crime fighters, or just happened to come by and save them.

OK, OK, I can live with that as a pass-time, but not as a "Our duty to the city, to mankind, is to protect it!" It just shouldn't be dwelled on or be their main thing or go-to.

Because that's absurd.

Originally Posted by Jester

I dunna, they are pretty friendly with a force for justice....

Just sayin'.

You...

Originally Posted by Monte Williams

And every one of those iterations designed for little toy-buying kids is completely legit and relevant and has an audience of its own.

Absolutely. Let's meet them.



and...

Way to miss the point. If they were so concerned with the true meaning of ninja in their property, they'd have retained the rights.

Whuh? Why would they be so concerned with the true meaning of ninja? They weren't, while they held it, as they kept it consistent in most/all of the Mirage/Image material right up to Mirage Vol. 4 that Laird made damn sure he still holds the rights to do 18 issues a year of.

But real life issues trumped such things on behalf of Laird and, about 9 years beforehand, Eastman... none of which help your case.

If someone put a briefcase with 60 million dollars and said, Andrew Modeen, you've worked 30 years on this thing with mutant gerbils that adhere strictly to the samurai code that's cost you marriages and quality of life, do you accept? Of course I'd bite my lip and pride and say "Yes."

They'd have never let the property become a cartoon in the '80s, let alone a merchandizing juggernaut emblazoned on cereal boxes and paper plates and who knows what else.

They wanted to not be poor. I'd do the same. No one was going to get rich off of Mirage Vol. 1 alone... but that doesn't mean the subsequent children's spinoff stuff is Shakespeare either. They let their hands off the reins there, intentionally, because...

*gasp*

... it was intended for little kids. It took off. It did well, as such.

Your condescending one-note tantrums are convincing nobody. You are an intelligent, enthusiastic person, but damn if your contributions aren't inane and predictable and closed-minded.

I can live with that.

{nerdrage all caps}That is totally unacceptable! Mirage only! Trukk not munky!{/nerdrage all caps} etc.

OK.

Apparently you missed that this is the Mirage Volume 1, #1 Forum, so your comment is invalid.

You would have done a lot better to say, "Andrew, you dumb son of a b*tch, you're posting on a board called the TECHNODROME! That's a Fred Wolf thing!"

I give you that one free.

Originally Posted by Panda_Kahn_fan

Yeahhh, the fact that they run around with the justice force in mirage, and the justice force treats them like fellow superheroes, and their adventures with the justice force go down like superhero stories... kinda takes an interesting slant of this whole argument, don't it?

Not really, for two reasons. One, that was Laird free of Eastman, two, that was more of a parody of the more (then) modern-day superheroes juxtaposed against the TMNT, I think, to show how ridiculous that world is next to the TMNT and how they probably can't fit into it.

Which isn't to say that was a one-off thing. I'm well aware Laird went back to it in 4Kids, and even had Mikey become a bonafide superhero. He liked exploring that dichotomy.

Originally Posted by Krutch

I think what I adore most about this franchise is it's flexibility to adapt to whatever box you want to put it in effortlessly.

It's very corporate friendly, to be sure.

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

But the turtles do kill in battle. Even in the most recent volume 4 they didn't shy from killing in battle. If Laird comes back to wrap up volume 4 in 2020 or whatever, there will be deaths.

Its not just mirage 1 #1. What about volumes 2 and 4?

What about 3?

And the characters don't grow? Again, volume 2 and 4. Hell city at war even helped casey and April's characters grow.

Arguably more than anything before or since. Arguably more there than anything else in any other media/children's spinoff.

Originally Posted by Wildcat

For me no. They only kill "true evil" like Nick or 4kids Shredder. In my head-canon they don't kill just because they can or to stop any 'ol enemy. That would be arrogant and mindless.

Eh... agreed. If some guy in an alley sees them walking by in trenchcoats tries to "mug" them and they get the drop on him... I can buy that they probably wouldn't just put a katana down his throat. At the same time, though, in the heat of the battle I don't see them having this deep-seated Batman-like impulse about "YOU CAN'T KILL!!!" preventing them from doing so like an instinct.

I have not read any comics. I know it was originally more violent but beyond Mirage 1 or whatever I have no idea what the tone is then or now.

Volume 4 faltered a few years ago. The stuff now isn't connected to it... it's mandated by Nick to mostly be blood-free, but absolutely killing free (on the Turtles' part).

I agree Ninjas are not primarily meant to be killers. I mean if I learn martial arts doesn't mean I plan to be some kind of assassin.

Those things don't necessarily work together. It's kind of like saying, "Radicalized Muslims aren't primarily meant to be killers. If I learn some form of organized religion, Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism, etc., that doesn't mean I want to kill."

Sort of meaningless.

I could do it to for self defense or to defend others. Carrying weapons doesn't equal intent to kill.

Though it does denote a willingness. Otherwise, what's the point? A deterrent? A metaphorical scarecrow, you carry with you?

That's not the TMNT. That's not remotely the TMNT.

[Andrew NDB]

And I can't speak for Laird, as probably -- maybe -- if it was up to him alone, there wouldn't have been any "Ninja" in the title at all (which is the beauty of the Eastman-Laird dichotomy... these are the Yin and Yang that come together in excellence!)... but Eastman? I went to bat for him, with him when the comic book rights were being bandied about after the Viacom/Nickelodeon sale with Boom! and other studios... what he wanted to do, what he was pitching around would have made the "Bodycount" comic look like The Smurfs, in the best possible way.

Point being? Eastman likes his Ninja Turtles acting like ninjas. And then some.

[DestronMirage22]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Eastman? I went to bat for him, with him when the comic book rights were being bandied about after the Viacom/Nickelodeon sale with Boom! and other studios... what he wanted to do, what he was pitching around would have made the "Bodycount" comic look like The Smurfs, in the best possible way.

Point being? Eastman likes his Ninja Turtles acting like ninjas. And then some.

Yeah, I've always liked what each of the guys has done with the TMNT by themselves. Laird with his sci-fi, and Eastman with his dark-and-gritty. Admittedly Kevin's stuff has been more fun to read, with how over the top things can get.

Also, would it be wrong to admit I actually, sort of, kind of liked Bodycount?

[Wildcat]

@AndrewNDB, Carrying weapons can still be used for non-lethal reasons. To wound someone so you can escape or rescue someone.

Carrying a sword or any blade doesn't mean that I must eventually kill somebody with it. Just because..."well I have it with me" ? That's kinda dumb.

Even in the heat of battle you don't suddenly forget your personal morals and figure what the heck I'll just mow these people down.

Why are you so intent on proving the turtles must be some kind of kill-or-be-killed vigilante brutes?

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by DestronMirage22

Yeah, I've always liked what each of the guys has done with the TMNT by themselves. Laird with his sci-fi, and Eastman with his dark-and-gritty. Admittedly Kevin's stuff has been more fun to read, with how over the top things can get.

Also, would it be wrong to admit I actually, sort of, kind of liked Bodycount?

I liked Bodycount just fine for what it was. Would I like to see more of that? Not really, but I appreciate the hell out of it as a passion project from Eastman that was totally balls-out.

And yeah. Laird alone? You get vol. 2 and 4. Eastman alone? You get something like Bodycount. Both of those things, somewhat unsatisfying to hardcore lovers of early Mirage, RTNY and CAW Mirage. But you marry the two, those two entirely different kinds of storytellings and even focus... magic happens.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Wildcat

@AndrewNDB, Carrying weapons can still be used for non-lethal reasons. To wound someone so you can escape or rescue someone.

Carrying a sword or any blade doesn't mean that I must eventually kill somebody with it. Just because..."well I have it with me" ? That's kinda dumb.

Even in the heat of battle you don't suddenly forget your personal morals and figure what the heck I'll just mow these people down.

Why are you so intent on proving the turtles must be some kind of kill-or-be-killed vigilante brutes?

I don't need to prove it. It's right there on the page. Many pages. Over decades. It's called "the actual TMNT media and universe in which they were created which has endured until technically now and when and if Laird decides to officially stop any pretense of releasing new issues."

Originally Posted by Panda_Kahn_fan

Andrew, we get it. You see the TMNT mirage as a work of art that has been violated by evil Mccorporation (TM) and kid-pandering. You are free to like that version as presented in the original mirage material, and it can be said that from an artistic standpoint, everything that came after was a step down.

And we also know where you stand. Quite well. And what you're hiding behind.

But... the rest of us don't see things the way you do. Most of us... and the general populace... like our bebops and rocksteadys, our krangs and technodromes.

I'm sorry.

Source material and E&L intent don't mean anything to us,

no matter what you say or do.

Given who you are, that's not entirely surprising you'd say that. But even if you were a random TMNT fan off the street... that still seems pretty sad of one to say.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

....

Fine, whatever. I'm not a plant, I'm not Garcia, I don't work for Nick, and I really don't care anymore.

[Wildcat]

Hey Kevin has that YouTube channel. We should ask him if TMNT is and was meant to be exactly like Andrew says