Raph's Treatment on the show

[Aaronardo]

Originally Posted by Ninturtle

The show is pretty well written a majority of times I'm entertained, I'd like the show to be darker and have more character development but even with out that it's still obvious the creaters care about what they're doing. The action is still great the writing is still funny, the VA's do an excellent job, the animation is still splendid there's so much good to focus on that the flaws seen extremely minor in comparison.

I wanna make it clear that I'm not saying the show is bad, necessarily, just noticably inferior to other 'toons on the air right now, and to its own first two seasons.

With that out of the way, I'll just leave it with, hey, if you think a show with grossly underdeveloped characters (for the tone they're going for), limited humor that's turned to "hey! Look how random we can be!", and has gotten so tired of itself that the only thing that has improved is the animation (even the fight scenes aren't what they used to be), hey, go nuts. I'll still watch the show (it pumps out a good episode every, let's say, a month), but I probably won't be as nuts for the show as you. That's just different tastes, I suppose.

[Ninturtle]

Originally Posted by Aaronardo

I wanna make it clear that I'm not saying the show is bad, necessarily, just noticably inferior to other 'toons on the air right now, and to its own first two seasons.

With that out of the way, I'll just leave it with, hey, if you think a show with grossly underdeveloped characters (for the tone they're going for), limited humor that's turned to "hey! Look how random we can be!", and has gotten so tired of itself that the only thing that has improved is the animation (even the fight scenes aren't what they used to be), hey, go nuts. I'll still watch the show (it pumps out a good episode every, let's say, a month), but I probably won't be as nuts for the show as you. That's just different tastes, I suppose.

The humor isn't just " how random can we be " it's usually because the dialogue is funny because of the characters traits ( Fugitoid's a great example ) or they have a pretty neat reference. And the fight scenes aren't any worse then they used to be and every episode has a pretty solid fight. I think the show took a drop from season 1 and season 3 is around the same quality as 2 was minus the first few episodes, the humor and writing quality is about the same.

[Sabacooza]

Originally Posted by Ninturtle

There's very few moments when Raph is the only turtle who needs to be saved , and Mikeys usually the one who's the but of jokes and Raphael makes a ton of sarcastic comments. You're making a mountain out of a mole hill my friend.

You're wrong on all accounts but if that's how you want to roll with it then good for you. You're able to enjoy the show for what it is, flaws and all. Goldmutant and a few others have already explained why Raph is treated poorly better than I ever could.

[The Happy One]

Originally Posted by Sabacooza

What show are you watching? When you actually get a clue then come back and have an educated conversation with me.

Well...it is somewhat true. I mean, how many times is Raph the lone turtle in distress? Not many, by my count. All in all Raph is just fine for me. Yeah, there are a few things like his brashness that could be better- but you just gotta wait and see, y'know. The show is still going strong and i think Raph's character is as well.

[The Happy One]

Originally Posted by Ninturtle

The humor isn't just " how random can we be " it's usually because the dialogue is funny because of the characters traits ( Fugitoid's a great example ) or they have a pretty neat reference. And the fight scenes aren't any worse then they used to be and every episode has a pretty solid fight. I think the show took a drop from season 1 and season 3 is around the same quality as 2 was minus the first few episodes, the humor and writing quality is about the same.

Agreed. These writers work very hard, pal. You can’t just discard everything they accomplish because you, personally, didn't enjoy an episode. Nothing is at all random. Everything is articulated and they take their jobs very, very seriously. So...before you say that these guys are basically the writers for Teen Titans Go...let's look back at really how this show delivers and then some. It just wasn't your cup of tea this week- and that's okay, too

[Sabacooza]

Originally Posted by The Happy One

Well...it is somewhat true. I mean, how many times is Raph the lone turtle in distress? Not many, by my count. All in all Raph is just fine for me. Yeah, there are a few things like his brashness that could be better- but you just gotta wait and see, y'know. The show is still going strong and i think Raph's character is as well.

Again, if that's what you believe, that's fine but there is tons of evidence to prove otherwise.

[Alph_shinn]

well, with the TMNT nick show until now...I'm quite(maybe a lot) disappointed to the describe on the Turtles, especially Raph...

In Within Woods episode, the trivia on Raph's plot quite similar with the V1 story Old Man River, in the story Raph turn back to a normal turtle, but still will bite the enemy to attack them. But in the show, become a plant like dog, nothing to say about this, well, maybe because Raph is actually a soft guy, after mutated will become the real of him.

Still hoping official will release the River's Story Arc someday.

Now, the bug.
I don't know what the different between HATE and AFRAID or SCARE.
In the V1 story, Raph is hate the bloodsucker
And the 03 series, Raph had said he hates bugs
In the 12 series character setting, Raph is hate foot clan and bugs, and seem hard as nails but really is a big softy.

but in the series I see nothing but scare for the roach.

Anyway, I don't know.
But Raph still my favor char, that's all.

[Ninturtle]

Originally Posted by Sabacooza

You're wrong on all accounts but if that's how you want to roll with it then good for you. You're able to enjoy the show for what it is, flaws and all. Goldmutant and a few others have already explained why Raph is treated poorly better than I ever could.

How am I wrong ? There's like 3 times Raph needs to be saved alone and just because bad things happen to him doesn't mean he's handled poorly.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by ssjup81

I just don't think much about shows (Nick Turtles) aimed at seven-year-olds...

Good for you?
I mean, it's not like it's a requirement that people think critically about the media they consume.

[kelligrafie]

Originally Posted by Sabacooza

People can bash me for feeling the way I do. That's fine but if you're not a Raphael fan, you really won't understand. You won't see the flaws surrounding the character. When we watch the show, we're usually invested in the ones we like the most and not much else matters.

I think people can and do understand perfectly well, without being 'Raphael fans'. For you to think that unless we're Raph fanboys/girls we won't 'get it', is quite patronising really.

We all have our favourites and we'd all wish for certain story lines or events for them to encounter. We'd all like the writers to 'handle' them a certain way.

But unless we ourselves are a writer on the show, we have to face facts that more often than not, it's not going to happen 100% according to our own individual plans.

We also have to face facts that the show isn't written for our individual benefit. They have an enormous variety of people to please.

Some people want hardcore nutter Raph. Some want soft as pie, sensitive Raph. Both are different but equally valid interpretations.

Someone's going to be disappointed whatever route they take.

And yes I would describe myself as a Raphael fan.

[The Happy One]

Originally Posted by kelligrafie

I think people can and do understand perfectly well, without being 'Raphael fans'. For you to think that unless we're Raph fanboys/girls we won't 'get it', is quite patronising really.

We all have our favourites and we'd all wish for certain story lines or events for them to encounter. We'd all like the writers to 'handle' them a certain way.

But unless we ourselves are a writer on the show, we have to face facts that more often than not, it's not going to happen 100% according to our own individual plans.

We also have to face facts that the show isn't written for our individual benefit. They have an enormous variety of people to please.

Some people want hardcore nutter Raph. Some want soft as pie, sensitive Raph. Both are different but equally valid interpretations.

Someone's going to be disappointed whatever route they take.

And yes I would describe myself as a Raphael fan.

Oh my gosh, PREACH!
Yes, this is so accurate!

[ssjup81]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Good for you?
I mean, it's not like it's a requirement that people think critically about the media they consume.

I should've reworded that. "I guess I just don't think much about shows aimed at seven-year-olds", meaning it's not a conscious thing.

[Aaronardo]

Originally Posted by The Happy One

You can’t just discard everything they accomplish because you, personally, didn't enjoy an episode.

I didn't enjoy A Foot Too Big. But you know what? I discarded it as more of a hiccup episode. More episodes came and went, I didn't like The Croaking or Eye of the Chimera (and that one was actually written by a writer I highly respect), and the season went on and on, Clash of the Mutanimals was annoying, Battle for New York was depressing as we were all expecting something to happen, but it just felt like, well, nothing, to me. It's gotten to the point where the last two seasons have had a lot more "hiccup" episodes than good episodes. (Hell, Season 4 has been nothing but hiccup episodes so far).

It's not that I didn't enjoy an episode, it's that I didn't enjoy multiple episodes and for multiple valid reasons.

Originally Posted by The Happy One

So...before you say that these guys are basically the writers for Teen Titans Go...let's look back at really how this show delivers and then some. It just wasn't your cup of tea this week- and that's okay, too

Woah woah woah. Hold it. None of us ever said that the writing of this show is on par or even close to Teen Titans Go. That show is utter garbage and honestly would've been cancelled by now if it didn't get such a huge following for no reason. I've never said any of the episodes of this show are bad (however, I could probably pick one or two out of the bunch), I just said there are multiple episodes with multiple problems that cause problems for the show as a whole.

And there again, I actually enjoyed this week's a little bit more than most episodes recently. Now, that doesn't mean I thought it was good. It really just felt to me like, "eh, that happened". I'm not talking about this week, I'm talking about this year, or moreso the last year and a half. The show has just gotten worse and worse and I used to be like you -- I didn't want to believe it -- but it really has gotten worse.

I mean, my argument would always be "Return to New York was cool! Vision Quest was amazing!" but it just got harder and harder to stand by this show until it finally really set in to me. Yes, the show does deliver in some cases. I mean, Annihilation: Earth and Dinosaurs Seen In the Sewers are a phenomenal two episodes, but that's just what they are. Two episodes. In a season that's filled at least over halfway with mediocre to okay episodes. You can't judge a show by one episode when the rest of the show isn't on par with that one episode.

Now I just wanna reiterate one more time, I'm not saying the show is bad. I'm not saying any of the episodes are bad. I'm saying it's generated problems with itself that they need to just get a hold of (and there are multiple easy fixes, and being lazy about it isn't one of them).

Oh, and on the subject of Raph. He's not portrayed horribly in this show, but he's definitely got the worst of it out of the four in this show. When was the last time you ever saw Raph be a badass? Seriously. When? The last time I can remember, personally, is in Cockroach Terminator, an episode that premiered over two years ago. I mean, if they want to make fun of Raph by making him the butt of jokes the way they do, it'd probably be funny if we actually saw him be more like the actual characterization of Raphael. And, hell, if you want a big softie Raph, guess what? The last time we saw him as a big softie at all was in "Within The Woods", the Season 3 premiere. Hasn't been like that since then. At all. In fact, not being able to stay consistent with his characterization is exactly why this incarnation of Raph is a bad character.

[plastroncafe]

Woah woah woah. Teen Titans Go! is a masterwork of a post-modern take down of tropes which all but smother the superhero genre.

Plus it's disturbing as all get out, but in the best of all possible ways.

(All I know is pain.)
You are right though, the writing on the Nick Toon doesn't compare to TTG.
TTG is consistent from episode to episode, something the Nick Toon has yet to achieve. Though...TTG does have the advantage of 10 minute episodes.

[ssjup81]

Aaronardo: Too bad you didn't enjoy those eps. I liked a Foot Too Big because it was funny for the Finger and my nostalgic WWF feels and missing the old days where Piper was nuts, Jesse was outrageous, and Hulk Hogan actually existed. I liked the Croaking because Napoleon Dynamite is one of my favorite movies (but I did dislike the reason for Mikey leaving). I guess, for me, I like something about every episode, including the ones that were so-so to me (Wyrm ep...but loved the references) or just didn't care for (Yokai ep for petty reasons, but I liked how we learned of their backgrounds and other things were pretty cool). It's sad when folks can't enjoy a show, though. I'm sorry that you can't.

[Candy Kappa]

Originally Posted by Aaronardo

When was the last time you ever saw Raph be a badass? Seriously. When?

soo... Climbing up a ice mountain wall with no safety measures, without any difficulties. And taking out two ice dragons within 5 seconds, one being decapitated in a shower of ice-body bits... Is not badass to you?

jeez Louise, what's badass to you? nothing less then destroying the whole moon they where stranded on and taking out the whole Triceraton army single handed afterwards?

[srmff]

Originally Posted by Aaronardo

And, hell, if you want a big softie Raph, guess what? The last time we saw him as a big softie at all was in "Within The Woods", the Season 3 premiere. Hasn't been like that since then. At all. In fact, not being able to stay consistent with his characterization is exactly why this incarnation of Raph is a bad character.

Ah was Raph not a big softie just two episodes ago in the 'The Moons of Thales 3' with Mona?

[PangolinFeets]

Originally Posted by Aaronardo

I wanna make it clear that I'm not saying the show is bad, necessarily, just noticably inferior to other 'toons on the air right now, and to its own first two seasons.

I'm genuinely curious, because I hardly see other cartoon series with an overarching, deeper plot, which other toons are you talking about? I'm enjoying Steven Universe and that's about it.

[The Happy One]

Originally Posted by Aaronardo

I didn't enjoy A Foot Too Big. But you know what? I discarded it as more of a hiccup episode. More episodes came and went, I didn't like The Croaking or Eye of the Chimera (and that one was actually written by a writer I highly respect), and the season went on and on, Clash of the Mutanimals was annoying, Battle for New York was depressing as we were all expecting something to happen, but it just felt like, well, nothing, to me. It's gotten to the point where the last two seasons have had a lot more "hiccup" episodes than good episodes. (Hell, Season 4 has been nothing but hiccup episodes so far).

It's not that I didn't enjoy an episode, it's that I didn't enjoy multiple episodes and for multiple valid reasons.



Woah woah woah. Hold it. None of us ever said that the writing of this show is on par or even close to Teen Titans Go. That show is utter garbage and honestly would've been cancelled by now if it didn't get such a huge following for no reason. I've never said any of the episodes of this show are bad (however, I could probably pick one or two out of the bunch), I just said there are multiple episodes with multiple problems that cause problems for the show as a whole.

And there again, I actually enjoyed this week's a little bit more than most episodes recently. Now, that doesn't mean I thought it was good. It really just felt to me like, "eh, that happened". I'm not talking about this week, I'm talking about this year, or moreso the last year and a half. The show has just gotten worse and worse and I used to be like you -- I didn't want to believe it -- but it really has gotten worse.

I mean, my argument would always be "Return to New York was cool! Vision Quest was amazing!" but it just got harder and harder to stand by this show until it finally really set in to me. Yes, the show does deliver in some cases. I mean, Annihilation: Earth and Dinosaurs Seen In the Sewers are a phenomenal two episodes, but that's just what they are. Two episodes. In a season that's filled at least over halfway with mediocre to okay episodes. You can't judge a show by one episode when the rest of the show isn't on par with that one episode.

Now I just wanna reiterate one more time, I'm not saying the show is bad. I'm not saying any of the episodes are bad. I'm saying it's generated problems with itself that they need to just get a hold of (and there are multiple easy fixes, and being lazy about it isn't one of them).

Oh, and on the subject of Raph. He's not portrayed horribly in this show, but he's definitely got the worst of it out of the four in this show. When was the last time you ever saw Raph be a badass? Seriously. When? The last time I can remember, personally, is in Cockroach Terminator, an episode that premiered over two years ago. I mean, if they want to make fun of Raph by making him the butt of jokes the way they do, it'd probably be funny if we actually saw him be more like the actual characterization of Raphael. In fact, not being able to stay consistent with his characterization is exactly why this incarnation of Raph is a bad character.

Phew...I'm glad that's cleared up.
For a second there I thought you were going in the direction of that this show is bad or something.
But, hey, if multiple eps aren't your cup of tea either then they aren't your cup of tea so I have no worrries about that

But just like the other dude before me just said,
When you have two sides of fans for one character- and this seems to especially happen with Raphael- you will ALWAYS have unhappy campers. Because the OT Raph had more sarcastic moments than badass, 2003 had pretty great badass and softie moments, the comics tend to lean more towards badass and this show I think is just exploring other traits that define Raph- besides being hotheaded or badass.

Now I talked to some huge Raph fans yesterday- my friend's kids and my older sister.
And we analysed a couple of things. The kids love Raph, while my sister did say she wished he had enough spotlight time where he literally stood for his family (which I think he has) but she said she's getting use to this softer approach as it shows his maturity throughout the show.

We also have noticed that the same thing happened throughout the 2003 show, but they took their time. This show just needs to take their time, I think. Smooth it out and pace it right. But other than that? What's there to complain about?


So, like I said, two sides of Raph fans.
But I think it's more of the pacing, like you also brought out, than the actual characterization.

But that's just me
And, yeah, Raph has been pretty badass. It's pretty much confirmed.

[Aaronardo]

Originally Posted by PangolinFeets

I'm genuinely curious, because I hardly see other cartoon series with an overarching, deeper plot, which other toons are you talking about? I'm enjoying Steven Universe and that's about it.

Gravity Falls, Avatar: The Last Airbender, the 2003 series that preceded this show, the list goes on.

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

soo... Climbing up a ice mountain wall with no safety measures, without any difficulties. And taking out two ice dragons within 5 seconds, one being decapitated in a shower of ice-body bits... Is not badass to you?

jeez Louise, what's badass to you? nothing less then destroying the whole moon they where stranded on and taking out the whole Triceraton army single handed afterwards?

1. He had the advantage of being on a different planet, and thus, there are different laws of gravity (the show mentions this in-universe at one point or another).
2. He had a spacesuit. Maybe not important but putting that out there.
3. The dragons would've been a good moment for Raph if it had more of an impact, but as it is, it was forgettable. And I'm pretty sure it has to do with the fact that it almost immediately got overshadowed by the Mona Lisa thing. And maybe that, as you mentioned, it only lasted for five seconds. Plus, being badass =/= taking **** out with ease. Taking out the Cockroach Terminator was a struggle. Raph had never even seen those dragons before he took them down, and even if that is badass to you, it doesn't excuse the Mona Lisa bull that happens afterward.

Originally Posted by ssjup81

Aaronardo: Too bad you didn't enjoy those eps. I liked a Foot Too Big because it was funny for the Finger and my nostalgic WWF feels and missing the old days where Piper was nuts, Jesse was outrageous, and Hulk Hogan actually existed. I liked the Croaking because Napoleon Dynamite is one of my favorite movies (but I did dislike the reason for Mikey leaving). I guess, for me, I like something about every episode, including the ones that were so-so to me (Wyrm ep...but loved the references) or just didn't care for (Yokai ep for petty reasons, but I liked how we learned of their backgrounds and other things were pretty cool). It's sad when folks can't enjoy a show, though. I'm sorry that you can't.

My argument was directed to the people that were saying that the show is absolutely perfect and only slip up a couple of times and for nothing else.

Originally Posted by srmff

Ah was Raph not a big softie just two episodes ago in the 'The Moons of Thales 3' with Mona?

Raph was a big softie with Spike when he had him. Whenever the two had scenes together, it would always be hilarious and kind of cute. Raph may have been a softie with Mona, but it wasn't any good. It was rushed and kinda forced, hence why I don't count it. It actually is so forced it doesn't even come off as him being soft and more just comes off as him being shoved into this "relationship" that hardly feels genuine.

I guess it's better explained this way: it's better to have things "happen" to a character to put their personality in the spotlight rather than to force things onto a character for the same outcome.