Feminist Analyses

[Shredded]

Oh man... bleh, feminism.


I mean, really.. Bleh! the trouble about feminism is that they can turn every-thing into the argument of it being bad, all it takes is a little bit of spin-doctory.

For example!

If they had turned Mikey into a girl, some-one would say.
"It's this show portraying women as dumb and irresponsible."

If they turned Raphael into a girl, some-one would say.
"It's the show saying that women are hot-heated people with temper problems, whom can't be controlled."

if they turned Donatello into a woman some-one would say.
"The show is saying women thinks to much and over-complicating things on purpose."

And finally, if Leo was a woman, some 'feminist' out there would say.
"This show is saying women are controlling, and has a need to be in control."


... See, that's why I don't call myself a feminsit!
I am a woman! Of cause I want equality and more female characters, but I choice to say. "I have an opinion, it's based on my own exsperience and knowledge, and I look at each situation different to give an opinion."


Okay, so this new TMNT show, thus far only three females has appeared, and one of those were only a killer robot.

Yes, there is an imbalance here, yes that is a problem.
But it's not a problem unique to this show, and in case of this show it comes from the fact that the show is based on some-thing else, and that some-thing else neither had a lot of women. It didn't!

At this point the 2k3 also only had two women! April and Angel, and that was it at this point.

How-ever, this show is actually trying to do some-thing about it!
The fatal robot did not have to be a woman, that was a decision the writers made.
They decided to introduce Karai early and make her a more prominent character, why? Probably to have a second woman.
April is also a very capable girl, and there is probably a good reason why they train her to be a konuich so early.. it's so she can go on adventures with the turtles in a near future.

This show is not dis-respectful to women, it just very unfortunate there aren't more of them right now, but again, universal problem amongst almost all action, adventure cartoon shows.

The women that they do have, they treat very respectfully.

So yeah, go on 'feministic' rampages over it, is really not some-thing I like.

I just highly dislike when some-one actually has to use the word. "Feminism" to argument for any-thing!
I've argued for more women before on this forum, and it's by conciouse choice that I never use the word. "Feminism." as I rather give solid arguments beside it.

I'm not a feminist, I am just a woman, whom likes these kinds of shows, whom kind of wished there were more women in them.

[Hannah]

Seriously, I don't mean this to piss off anyone in particular, but let's all please refrain from talking about whether or not we identify with feminism or whether feminism is needed. That's not the discussion at hand. thanks

[Candy Kappa]

Interesting to see how many reacts with Feminist in the title, raging about the straw feminists and patriarch liberators.

There is a diversity of gender {and color) of the background characters, so April, karai and cameo Irma isn't the only females in the world.

Originally Posted by TheSkeletonMan939

The reason TMNT doesn't have females is because females are really just love interests on TV shows

Is it really that disturbing? We are talking about humanoid creatures that that live in a society where another species of humanoids dominate on every level. not to mention same intelligences and mindset. the turtles have the minds of humans.

But Donnie is in (at least as of this date) a one sided "romance", April is clearly not interested that way. He be friend zone'd. Either she is oblivious to his feelings, don't want to compromise the friendship by addressing it or just enjoys the attention and don't want it to go any further that that.

Karai on the other hand is clearly playing Leo like a harp from hell.

These characters are clearly not just relationship NPCs for the main characters to have around as decoration. They are fully developed characters, both villain and support.

Ad I love that Karai have the villain femme fatal attitude, without the Looks of wonder Woman and the rack of Power Girl.

[Powder]

Originally Posted by Hannah

Let's all please refrain from talking about whether or not we identify with feminism or whether feminism is needed. That's not the discussion at hand. thanks

Thread title- "Feminist Analyses"

Yeah, totally not the place for the topic of feminists.

[Berserker]

Originally Posted by Shredded

Oh man... bleh, feminism.


I mean, really.. Bleh! the trouble about feminism is that they can turn every-thing into the argument of it being bad, all it takes is a little bit of spin-doctory.

I agree. The show could have a 100% all-female cast, heroes, sidekicks, villains, side characters, everything, and feminists would still have something to complain about and something to find sexist and "problematic." I remember a lot of this talk started to happen when Powerpuff Girls came out. Some feminists sided with the show, while others thought it was a blatant attempt to pander to gender equality, and that it was patronizing and ham-fisted.

TMNT can never "win" this battle, but that's okay, because it's not a battle they should have to fight. TV shows shouldn't be forced to match a universal demographic. If they do, that's great, but if they don't, who cares. Again, take a look at the Bronies. Boys don't watch My Little Pony and get annoyed at the fact that there aren't enough male ponies.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by Powder

Thread title- "Feminist Analyses"

Yeah, totally not the place for the topic of feminists.

You realize a "feminist analysis" is a mode of fictional critiquing that exams a piece's effects through portrayal of gender, right?

That said, it's all a way of addressing the same issues and, while I guess I shouldn't be totally surprised seeing as how it's a comicbook forum, the amount of dismissal here is kind of a shame.

It's okay to talk about gender portrayal in TV, guys. That doesn't even mean TMNT's doing a terrible job (it's totally not!). But it's okay to at least broach the subject and talk about how it's doing, especially when girls get so few positive characters of their own gender in popular media. (Guys have problems in that area too, but less so with Turtles.)

Originally Posted by Berserker

Again, take a look at the Bronies. Boys don't watch My Little Pony and get annoyed at the fact that there aren't enough male ponies.

And I just want to address this because it's a fallacious argument used to shut down these kinds of conversations. We don't need to be concerned with My Little Pony so much because males don't find a lack of male characters to look up to across the whole of media. There are problems with the portrayal of men in popular media, sure -- mainly that a lot of the characters aren't positive if they're not fighting, etc. -- but there's definitely not a lack of them. So when a show comes a long aimed at kids heavily stacked in favor of positively portrayed female characters, that's a good thing. It's bucking a trend, rather than reinforcing one. A heavily male show and a heavily female show aren't equal problems because we don't live in a bubble -- if we did, they would be.

On top of that, an all- or mostly-all-female cast doesn't mean it can't be problematic. There's a long history of shows aimed at young girls that do nothing but reinforce insipidness.

Re: PowerPuff Girls, you said "some" feminists, right? So it sounds like it's just that "some people" took issue with it. Feminists aren't a union.

Finally, just so we're not talking in terms of some unreachable ideal, there are totally male-oriented action cartoons I think are pretty much above reproach when it comes to gender portrayal: For example, most DC shows.

[Pterobat]

Yes, because heaven forbid people discuss things about media that bother 'em.

It is totally messed up that any look at gender and society in media is being boo-ed just because of a few fanatics or what somebody thinks the movement is all about.

Or that the current state of things is justification enough for things to continue to be done that way, which, you know, it's not.

As for Nick Turtles and the franchise in general, yeah, it sucks that there are less female characters for us girls to relate to, especially that there are so few female mutants. They don't HAVE to be love interests, and they don't HAVE to interfere with the precious nihilism of the Turtles being all male.

2012 April is a pretty good character, and the only problems with the crush are on Don's end. Karai is nice, too, though she feels like one of those "remember the new one?" characters who is treated like she was there all along.

I really hope that the series doesn't go back on its word and have Karai be "converted" to the side of good. Even if she is Miwa, it doesn't mean she can be saved.

[Shredded]

Originally Posted by Pterobat

Yes, because heaven forbid people discuss things about media that bother 'em.

It is totally messed up that any look at gender and society in media is being boo-ed just because of a few fanatics or what somebody thinks the movement is all about.

Or that the current state of things is justification enough for things to continue to be done that way, which, you know, it's not.

As for Nick Turtles and the franchise in general, yeah, it sucks that there are less female characters for us girls to relate to, especially that there are so few female mutants. They don't HAVE to be love interests, and they don't HAVE to interfere with the precious nihilism of the Turtles being all male.

2012 April is a pretty good character, and the only problems with the crush are on Don's end. Karai is nice, too, though she feels like one of those "remember the new one?" characters who is treated like she was there all along.

I really hope that the series doesn't go back on its word and have Karai be "converted" to the side of good. Even if she is Miwa, it doesn't mean she can be saved.

It's just.. it's not because I don't think it should be talked about.

Hell, I even talk about it A LOT in my own written articles and bring it up a lot in my discussions of media.

I just refuse to call it feminsim or myself a feminist.

Because, to me the idea that men and women should be presented in equal measure and that there should be interesting female characters representated isn't feminism.. it's some-thing I call common sense.

and the word feminsim is just miss-used so much, you can use it against any-thing, it doesn't mean any-thing! No one knows what it means or what any-one wants with it.

I shouldn't have to call myself a feminist to talk about these issues. I should be able to just talk about fine enough without joining a group, or go on a crusade.

And then talk about what I actually want.
I think that's sort of important. What is it I want? what does any-one want? What do you people want?

I mean one thing is to say. "These show is under-representated in girls!" or. "The girl characters aren't good." okay.. what do you want then? what do we want to change?
Here's my suggestions.

It could be sort of neat to have Irma introduced, and also make her a bit of a klutz.

I also think it could be sort of cool if the next mad scientist was a woman. (you all know there indeed is going ot be a 'next' evil scientist, there always is.)

Could also be cool with a female mutant, don't know if she should be for good or evil, but it just would be neat to see. Also if this mutant isn't any-bodies love interest.

That's kind of the suggestions I have right now, and I am also a big believer in.. give the show a little time wont you? let it breath, it's barely new and most of the characters introduced are status quo characters.
new versions of old characters whom just had to appear.

Further more, it is a good show! to pick on the "girls aspect." is nit-picking.

[Pterobat]

Femnism isn't about making women superior. And movements need names so that everyone can identify with (at least some of) their basic ideas. It's not the fault of the movement that the wider culture has turned the name feminism into a curse word.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by Cipher

But what are we really settling for here? As far as we know, two whole women exist in this universe. They're both kids. April can be as spunky as she wants, but she still isn't doing anything without the Turtles at this point. And let's not forget that Karai is Shredder's daughter, has every aspect of her character filtered through being Shredder's daughter and, if you want to take it in franchise context, is based on a character who was originally the extremely competent leader of the entire Foot Clan. Now she seems stuck in a subservient role. (This, by the way, sucks the big one, and has since 2004.)

Just to nitpick, there's April's Aunt (unseen so far, but still), Tang Shen (the Uncle Ben of TMNT), Miwa (potentially not Karai) Irma, Joan Grody (TV personality) and the woman who fixes the copy machine at TCRI and makes fun of Baxter .

But yes, Karai. I've been laying off complaining about her lately, but for the sake of this thread, I'll rev it up again.

I guess I can see why the 4kids show did what the did with her, and admittedly she was still head of the Foot in Japan there, but the fact that she's now constantly portrayed as Saki's seed drives me nuts too.

Even ignoring the point of this thread, I always just thought it would be cool to see Saki as kind of the black sheep of the Foot Clan. Having his faction vs. Karai's faction would be awesome.

[plastroncafe]

Personally I'm waiting for the scene where Karai and April have it out, and that hopefully that'll happen without either of them mentioning Leonardo.

I'm not asking for much, Nick. Just two female characters interacting, without that interaction having to do with a male character. WICKED easy to do. I have faith in you Nick.

That right there would be a great first step towards making TMNT a "kids'" show rather than merely a "boys'" show.

Art should make one think. It should elicit an emotional response. It should engage. Feminist deconstruction is a method of processing art. If it's not your particular cup of tea...that's fine. Belittling such analysis is willfully ignorant.

I don't know that I would call the new Turtle cartoon sexist, but it does have some problematic tropes that I'm less than fond of.

April's introduction being one of them.

Don's persistent affection in light of April's continued rebuffing of his affection is another. Liking someone romantically does not magically obligate them to your affections. Don's wandering dangerously close to falling into "nice guy" territory.

My hope upon hope is that this uncomfortable plot will continue into the second season, where Casey shows up...and then Splinter can sit down with Don and explain why he should build a bridge and get over his rejection.

[BabyTurtles]

still hoping to see Angel

[plastroncafe]

You know who I'd effing love to see at some point ANYWHERE?!
Shadow Jones.

Never going to happen in the Nick Toon, on account of her daddy being in highschool.

...

Though, woah. What a trip THAT'D be.

[BabyTurtles]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

You know who I'd effing love to see at some point ANYWHERE?!
Shadow Jones.

Never going to happen in the Nick Toon, on account of her daddy being in highschool.

...

Though, woah. What a trip THAT'D be.

well...she could just be an orphan named shadow XD and they meet her for an episode :3

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by BabyTurtles

well...she could just be an orphan named shadow XD and they meet her for an episode :3

That totally defeats her purpose.

[Candy Kappa]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

That totally defeats her purpose.

like making Karai Shredders daughter...

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

like making Karai Shredders daughter...

I don't think I'd say that completely defeats her purpose, but like I've said, I don't really like it.

The worst part about "Oroku Karai" is the fact that Shredder has a daughter in the comics, Pimiko. But it looks like she's doomed to stay in Image obscurity.

[Dirty Blond]

Originally Posted by Shredded

I just refuse to call it feminsim or myself a feminist.

Because you know that reverse-sexism is still sexism.

Thank you for not being a dupe.

[BabyTurtles]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

That totally defeats her purpose.

oh really? what was her purpose?

(I only know she's Casey daughter....nothing else )

[Shredded]

Originally Posted by Dirty Blond

Because you know that reverse-sexism is still sexism.

Thank you for not being a dupe.

Well among other things.. thank you.


I must say though, when-ever some-one says. "I'm a feminist!" my standard answer is. "good for you."

What the hell does that even mean. "I'm a feminist." ?

And yes, yes group of supposed "feminists." can be rather sexiest towards men, and more than any-thing they are really shooting themselves in the foot.
By saying. "Women can't be, slow, shy, a servant, over-abusive, wrong, distreet, over-dramatic ext." is just throwing away any-thing that would make a interesting character, and all we are left with is a huge pile of boring.
Not only boring, but it's an inhuman ideal that's impossible to life up to by actual girls and women.

Also, it's far to easy to just go. "I am a feminist, therefore you must listen to me and I am right! To say any-thing against me by default means you are sexiest, cause I am the feminist, and women totally has it hard." .. shesh

That's no argument.. and even worse it's an no-argument you can't debate without looking like a douch.

I'm fortunate, I can debate it, cause I am a woman.. if I were a man there was no way for me to say this without some-one calling me. "Sexiest." and that is unfortunate.

And believe me, this show is in NO way the sexiest. Really, if you want sexiest, go watch "Branded." which was indeed a 2012 Hollywood movie.
That actually had a message of.
"Fat women should be ashamed of themselves, they are useless to society."
I wish I was kidding, I am not.
Now that's actually sexiest. "You are only worth any-thing if you are pretty." ... wauw that was hurtful.

How-ever.. no, thus far TMNT has not passed the Bechdel test.

For those of you whom doesn't know of the Bechdel test.. you totally should, it's astounding how many movies and tely shows that doesn't pass.

The rules are simple! three rules.

1;There must be at least two women present.

2;The two women must have at least one conversation together.

3;That conversation cannot be about a man!


Unless you count the scene where robo teacher tried to shoot April and the conversation was pretty much. "April O'Neil, Exsterminate!" then no, it didn't pass the Bechdel test.

How-ever.. as the show goes right now, I will say it has a fair chance of passing the test in a near future.

April and Karai could easily end up having a conversation, Maybe Irma will appear, maybe some other character will appear.
I think it will pass the Bechel test before the first season is out! I am willing to bet.

Oh yeah btw, TMNT 2k3 first passed the Bechdel test in episode 20 where April had a conversation with Doctor Abigal Filtch about monsters at Caseys hut.
Thus this show has four episodes yet before it's more sexiest than the 2k3 show.. though admittedly the 2k3 show had three females at this point.. April, Angel and Quarry. which is one more than this show.. unless you count robo teach.