Official Mutant Apocalypse Arc Discussion (SERIES FINALE)

[CyberCubed]

I'm just surprised. Even when we were in Season 1 I never expected the Don/April ship to "go anywhere." I thought it was designed as a clearly obvious fun comedic angle for Don.

April kissed Don several times in the series to make him feel better, but it was obvious she had no romantic feelings for him and that they were never going to truly "get together." Ciro even had April kiss Don in the Ick music video as one last thing for shippers if they want to see that.

And given there's a 50 year timeskip, people who do like the ship can assume they had some nice time together before this all happened.

[Redworld96]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I'm just surprised. Even when we were in Season 1 I never expected the Don/April ship to "go anywhere." I thought it was designed as a clearly obvious fun comedic angle for Don.

April kissed Don several times in the series to make him feel better, but it was obvious she had no romantic feelings for him and that they were never going to truly "get together." Ciro even had April kiss Don in the Ick music video as one last thing for shippers if they want to see that.

And given there's a 50 year timeskip, people who do like the ship can assume they had some nice time together before this all happened.

It's very easy: Some people think about Don-April in the same way as you think about Shini-Karai. Even if the show didn't mention that Shinirai was canon, you still find proofs that they had romantic feelings for each other. Well, the same goes for other people with Don-April. You can agree or disagree, but you should never question the way of thinking of others.

[Tarris Vaal]

For fear of slipping off topic - I dont think you could dismiss it because it wasn't a plot point. It was certainly a character arc, and it was also a plot point on more than one occasion;

Operation Breakout in season 1 was entirely driven by Don's relationship with April. Otherwise the breakout attempt would have been done by them as a group and not just Don trying to act the hero.

Equally April eventually returning to the group after her fathers mutation was in part driven by what Casey told her, mimicking what Don had told her, which he only had because of this ongoing arc (rightly or wrongly you could argue).

Point is, that particularly in seasons 1 and 2 that the Don/April relationship was a factor in the flow of the plot. It was often relegated to a background joke, or a cheap laugh (again, rightly or wrongly), but it was never entirely dropped.

And to drag this back onto topic that fact that it wasn't dropped, along with the continuing reminders of Timothy and the completely unknown fates of April, Karai and Casey - all of whom deserved major character status - it leaves the Apocalypse arc feeling very hollow.

It really is a shame because I genuinely like the Apocalypse arc! I just wish this wasn't the finale! I can fully understand why Nick choose to reorder the episode releases, but I think just one episode covering the mutagen bomb and leading into the Apocalypse arc could have cleared up a lot of the questions left open.

[ABrown]

Three episodes seemed a little too stretched out for this story. One, maybe two episodes would've been plenty.

And for the record, it would've been nice to have seen what became of April, Casey, Karai, etc.

[Vegita-San]

Originally Posted by Redworld96

Chill out buddy. You keep criticizing those people who think about this topic and you keep insisting that we must not talk about this, but you like it or not, it's a topic of conversation and discussion, and not everyone has to think the same way as you. I will say the same thing some people told you during those last years, just ignore this topic if you don't like people still talking about this

Trying to rationalize with the irrational is illogical ;o)


Cube needs his own 2018 predictions and mood swings topic, since he is obviously the all knowing, all seeing, all accepting knowledge of everything tmnt. and god forbid you don't agree with him .

As for the weird mutant romance... I personally didn't care for it myself. one of the annoying things about this series was that the girls in this show seemed to be only brought in so the guys could have a romance subplot for tumblr people to swoon over.

I can't believe we got a romance triangle sub plot in tmnt of all things. oy.
And Shingami was the weirdest, most useless character introduction since Mutagen Man. not even sure why she was needed at all.

[Vegita-San]

Originally Posted by ABrown

Three episodes seemed a little too stretched out for this story. One, maybe two episodes would've been plenty.

And for the record, it would've been nice to have seen what became of April, Casey, Karai, etc.

I'm the opposite. I think th ere was enough for a full SEASON of this. Give us touching little side stories to show how everything happened. wrap up april, Karai and Casey's story line...as well as the mutanimals.

And make the plot being a Renet stroyline, where she is trying to help the guys undo the damage somehow.

Having the world end in disaster makes the tmnt seem like hero's that just where not good enough..and kind of made the 5 years pointless if it was all going to end like that.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Vegita

And Shingami was the weirdest, most useless character introduction since Mutagen Man. not even sure why she was needed at all.

Shinigami is a weird useless character? How is Karai having a female friend from Japan weird? She was also in a number of eps since her introduction, although I wish she was introduced earlier in the series.

[newfan]

Had this been a running series rather than tales they could have built up to it more, but didn't they always plan season 5 as tales after telling the story they wanted to tell? Though saying that having the 26 eps would have made a difference, it could have jsut been a long arc.

[Sabacooza]

One of the people working on the show said the Raph arc was to have another episode but Nick said no. Go figure. It probably would've helped to flesh more things out. Still wouldn't change the fact that this was a weird depressing arc to have as a finale.

[CyberCubed]

I doubt an extra episode would be anything more than random fights or on the road. People expecting one whole episode in the Oasis wouldn’t happen.

[Faster and Cheaper]

Okay, so here's a few behind the scenes tidbits. TV shows never run perfectly, that includes cartoons and TMNT too.

I had mentioned before that sometimes we worked with rigs that weren't 100% finished, or how in The Forgotten Swordsman the set where the final fight took place was modelled too small and we couldn't change the scale because of lighting, so we had to shrink the characters down to 60% of their regular height. Or in When World's Collide they electrical station and and the big bug ship werent done for a long time and the unfinished assets caused the computers to chug like no one's business.

Every arc had some kind of technical issue due to the scope of the stories and how every arc had something new. But I don't think any of them compare what we encountered on The Wasteland Warrior. Before we started the final phase of the episode my director called my team "The Frontline" as we would be the first team that would have to deal with the technical issues Nickelodeon was gonna throw at us. The two teams after mine would have their own issues too but even they had a little more to work with than us.

For instance we didn't have a single rig ready when we started production on the episode. NOT ONE! Our layout phase was one of the most pointless and hilarious times I've had working in this industry. And I've been working for four years now. The only thing that made it not pointless was that the cameras were in place during this phase and they wouldn't change much. But there is an edit in the Bardel and Nickelodeon networks that has the whole episode, every single shot, you have unfinished character rigs in T poses. I wish I had copied it, it was the funniest thing I've ever seen.

Characters weren't the only things not done, same for the vehicles and even the sets. I just remember having to constantly go back into shots til my last day to adjust something because we kept getting rig updates that would mess something up. It was incredible really that the episodes ended up looking so good and we actually delivered final animation early...it was only three hours early but it was a victory that everyone gladly took.

That aside, this show was the smoothest run production I've worked on so far, even this episode while it was stressful, I felt that no one panicked since everyone from the team and our production staff kept a cool head. Every other show I've been on it was always much more frantic, which is not how I like doing art.

My old mentor from school who was a lead on another team was telling me that TMNT was unlike any tv show he'd worked on. He also said most likely none of us would work on a show that's gives us that kind of time and calm to do the best job possible. I believe it, I just interviewed for a new show, that while it does sound fun, the turnaround is four weeks per episode...I'm gonna miss the sixteen TMNT afforded me.

The show had it's flaws, I can admit that but it was the most creatively challenging and rewarding show I've gotten to work on. And the most fun, I never thought as a kid in the early 90s watching the old show, I'd get to contribute to this franchise in this way.

[Sabacooza]

You're very lucky to have had a chance to be a part of a property we all hold near and dear to our heart. Thanks for sharing your inside info.

Has there ever been talk of releasing an art book behind the scenes kind of deal? Being an artist myself, I can appreciate the work that goes into something like this. I'd love to see one.

[TigerClaw]

Who ever is working on the 2018 show, it will probably be much easier to produce, given its 2D instead of CGI animated, but even 2D shows are CGI, they are just high quality hand drawn animation done on computers frame by frame.

[Faster and Cheaper]

Originally Posted by Sabacooza

You're very lucky to have had a chance to be a part of a property we all hold near and dear to our heart. Thanks for sharing your inside info.

Has there ever been talk of releasing an art book behind the scenes kind of deal? Being an artist myself, I can appreciate the work that goes into something like this. I'd love to see one.

That would be cool, the production art was really cool on the show. I hope so but that would be up to Nickelodeon I assume.

Originally Posted by TigerClaw

Who ever is working on the 2018 show, it will probably be much easier to produce, given its 2D instead of CGI animated, but even 2D shows are CGI, they are just high quality hand drawn animation done on computers frame by frame.

That's not accurate

[Vegita-San]

Originally Posted by Faster and Cheaper

For instance we didn't have a single rig ready when we started production on the episode. NOT ONE! Our layout phase was one of the most pointless and hilarious times I've had working in this industry. And I've been working for four years now. The only thing that made it not pointless was that the cameras were in place during this phase and they wouldn't change much. But there is an edit in the Bardel and Nickelodeon networks that has the whole episode, every single shot, you have unfinished character rigs in T poses. I wish I had copied it, it was the funniest thing I've ever seen.
.

I sometimes set up rough shots like that. I work on backgrounds first, and set up rough timing movements with unfinished characters just to see what the hell it'll look like. it DOES look rather funny seeing these characters just float about the screen with nothing moving and arms stretched out like a scare crow. I could do a few shots like that for the next act and demonstrate for those not sure what the hell we are talking about



I can't imagine working on those three episodes. EVERYTHING was new. Even the basic turtle models...and you probably had a very short time to create them all. Yo and your team had to create the Rocks, the enviroments, the skins for the cars, the actual cars, the smoke from the cars, the explosions, the fire, all the extra character crowd shots that showed up on screen for maybe 10 seconds. Leo's huge ass vehicle with parts that got maybe 2 seconds screen time. ugh. my hands are aching just thinking a bout all those mouse movements.

Hell, I'm slowly getting an idea how production works on things by doing my own animation with the classic show reworks. I'm figuring out what works, what doesn't, new ways to do things, new ways to set up things.

But I do everything by myself. I don't have a team. The Real Ghostbuster ones I just finished where the most advanced things I've done, because EVERYTHING was more or less new, minus the stuff I reused as set decoration like garbage boxes or street lamps.

And the more I do, the quicker I get things done. Big Rip Off Act 2, the second time I've done this show (last time was in 2013 and it needed updating)....I managed to finish in 2 weeks....about 70 shots. Considering i'm still teaching myself all this stuff, i'm surprised it came out as good as it did. Plenty of stuff still to fix though.

But it's still only animatic level compared to what you guys do.

It WOULD be nice to be able to do all this professionally...but, 1- i'm not good enough, and 2- who wants to move out to LA?

[Faster and Cheaper]

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

I sometimes set up rough shots like that. I work on backgrounds first, and set up rough timing movements with unfinished characters just to see what the hell it'll look like. it DOES look rather funny seeing these characters just float about the screen with nothing moving and arms stretched out like a scare crow. I could do a few shots like that for the next act and demonstrate for those not sure what the hell we are talking about

Well usually the first layout phase is just like a few poses that match the boards as close as possible. That's ideal and usually how it works but that time was...yea lol. I mean it gets the job done, so in that way no complaints. However once we were out of layout we had to take time ofd our episode and do something else since we literally could not move forward until they gave us something.

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

I can't imagine working on those three episodes. EVERYTHING was new. Even the basic turtle models...and you probably had a very short time to create them all. Yo and your team had to create the Rocks, the enviroments, the skins for the cars, the actual cars, the smoke from the cars, the explosions, the fire, all the extra character crowd shots that showed up on screen for maybe 10 seconds. Leo's huge ass vehicle with parts that got maybe 2 seconds screen time. ugh. my hands are aching just thinking a bout all those mouse movements.

Well luckily everything is divided out. As animators we didn\t make the assets or sets or props( some proxy shapes but anyone can do that ) and all the FX work is done after animation. That being said we make the things move, we bring life to the characters, and that was a huge challenge since we didn't have the rigs to start, the way we ended up doing the vehicle animation had its own process since the ground was not flat on the wasteland so that was definitely a pain.

We had a good amount of time, every episode was three phases that altogether was 3 months per episode. Which after spending two years on shows where the turnaround was 4-5 weeks...3 months felt like a luxury cruise. Normally it'd be enough, and technically was enough to do our Mad Raph episode, as we did finish on time. It was just kinda stressful at times due to constraints. But we were all very proud of it at the end, and set the bar for the other two parts to follow.

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

It WOULD be nice to be able to do all this professionally...but, 1- i'm not good enough, and 2- who wants to move out to LA?

Well good thing I live in Vancouver We got tons of work here.

That's cool that you work on your own stuff, there's some good programs out there if you ever do want to/ can afford it.

[Glitter Wand]

As for what happened to April, Karai, Shinigami, Casey, the mutanimals, and Pigeon Pete, I see two possibilities: they either mutated and were never found or perished.
I think I said this once before. Oh, well.

[evan2000]

Originally Posted by Faster and Cheaper

That being said we make the things move, we bring life to the characters

I've always wondered, was motion capture ever used in this series? The characters' movement were so organic and life-like to me, I cannot imagine them being simply hand adjusted using software without some sort of real-world reference like motion capture data. Most notably the turtles, their movements were so fluid, and you can often pick up subtle details like breathing and muscle twitching etc. which made them even more believable. How was it done?

[HoySmallFry]

So having reflected on this arc, my over-riding feeling is sadness. Not because the episodes were bad, in fact I enjoyed them, but because this is the finale - the end of TMNT 2012, and it was such a downer. No matter the victories they accomplished, the friends they made, the allies they recruited, it all meant nothing, and in the end there was just a wasteland.

I could probably accept this as the ending if we had any sort of information on how this happened. But no, we get a rough outline (an M-bomb goes off, bad stuff happens, wasteland) and that's it - who set off the bomb? Why was it not turned back like every other time? And for a show that underlined the importance of the dimensional and space aspects of TMNT, why all of a sudden is Earth isolated? Did Bishop just not notice? Fugitoid? The Salamandrians? Is Renet and everything she said now not canon? I'm happy for stories to be flexible, but there's a big continuity bug here.

So yeah, overall I'm sad. The ending of such an amazing show should have been joyous (just look at Owari), but instead we're left with defeat and desolation, and untold misery for our heroes (and the rest of them we're just meant to not care about I guess?)

--
Review over, I have a question for you all regarding the immediate aftermath of the bomb and the Turtle's whereabouts.

• Leo - "Dies" in the explosion
• Donnie - Dies, but transfers his consciousness into Metalhead v2, who is presumably back at the lair
• Raph - Meets up with Donnie, and judging by his collection of Mikey's bear and other bits, must have returned to the lair
• Mikey - Has ICK and Chompy with him in the future so must have returned to the lair

Which begs the question - how exactly did Raph and Donnie not meet Mikey?? It makes no sense. Even if you assume they didn't stay long, why would Raph and Donnie leave Chompy behind? Eugh, so much doesn't make sense

[Glitter Wand]

Perhaps Mikey returned to the lair first, only to find Raph and Donney not their. After a while, he presumed them to be dead and opted to take care of Ice Cream Kitty and Chompey.