Star Wars Episode 8

[Leonardo_thebest]

The hostility here is off the charts. Somebody should take a break from the internet and get themselves sorted.

I thought bullying wasn't tolerated.

[Andrew NDB]

The idea that mouse-canon Leia was never properly trained in the Force makes me a sad panda.

You would think more women would be upset about it when you consider the real reason that is. Fisher didn't want a huge role, that's true... that didn't mean she couldn't be an experienced Jedi. She was rendered a non-Jedi because making her a full-fledged Jedi would make Luke less special and the race to find him (this is what the opening crawl of TFA says) less meaningful in the story. If that doesn't make the Bechdel people fired up, I'm not sure what would, and it's absolutely true.

[Vegita-San]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

You would think more women would be upset about it when you consider the real reason that is. Fisher didn't want a huge role, that's true... that didn't mean she couldn't be an experienced Jedi. She was rendered a non-Jedi because making her a full-fledged Jedi would make Luke less special and the race to find him (this is what the opening crawl of TFA says) less meaningful.

i don't think they even thought that much about it.

Leia lead the rebellion in the OT, thus, that was her role here. they ALL had the same roles, except luke who regressed further.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

You would think more women would be upset about it when you consider the real reason that is. Fisher didn't want a huge role, that's true... that didn't mean she couldn't be an experienced Jedi. She was rendered a non-Jedi because making her a full-fledged Jedi would make Luke less special and the race to find him (this is what the opening crawl of TFA says) less meaningful in the story. If that doesn't make the Bechdel people fired up, I'm not sure what would, and it's absolutely true.

So you still don't know what the Bechdel test is, huh?

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

So you still don't know what the Bechdel test is, huh?

I do. Why?

[Spike Spiegel]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I do. Why?

I guess that for some gender critical fans, having female-female relationships on display that are affirming/"realistic" (i.e. Leia/Holdo) > the idea of Leia kicking ass as a fully trained Jedi. Apparently Holdo appears in a current tie-in novel as a friend Leia meets years before TFA.

I still don't see why we couldn't have had both, though. Maybe Han could have become the Rebel leader, completing his character's change from mercenary to selfless leader, and Leia would have taken over the new Jedi order after Luke lost his mojo. Maybe that change would be what eventually drove them apart and estranged them further from Ben/Kylo.

[Sumac]

I kind of agree that characters sort of "froze" into roles they had back in the OT. Which what usually happens when someone tries to make a continuation pandering to the fans of original work.

In that light, prequels, for all their shortcomings don't look so bad now.

[CyberCubed]

Most sequel series have that problem though. For Dragonball fans they can look at Super, Goku and Vegeta regressed to their pre-Buu saga personalities just to keep the series going.

I think that happens with any continuation of a franchise that ended a long time ago, so it's not only Star Wars here. Probably doesn't help matters the current people writing were the original kid/teen fans who grew up with it, so it sort of has a "published fanfiction" mentality to it.

[TigerClaw]

The Last Jedi got 4 nominations for the 2018 Oscars, these are the categories that you can always expect a Star Wars movie to get nominated for.

Best Original Score
Best Sound Editing
Best Sound Mixing
Best Visual FX

[ProactiveMan]

Makes sense. All that stuff was good.

[Vegita-San]

last three maybe.

but not really the first one.

then again, modern movie scores are so bland, maybe it was the least bland and somehow stood out.

although I AM glad they actually g ave Wonder woman an actual theme. that alone should have gotten a nod.

[Vegita-San]

Originally Posted by Sumac

I kind of agree that characters sort of "froze" into roles they had back in the OT. Which what usually happens when someone tries to make a continuation pandering to the fans of original work.

In that light, prequels, for all their shortcomings don't look so bad now.

not in the EU books.

Everyone evolved. and responded to the challenges in interesting ways. I especially liked the side detour they gave han, after Anakin was killed (IIRC) where he kind of went rogue for a while to get away from it all. if i'm remembering right, it was a fun side venture.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Most sequel series have that problem though. For Dragonball fans they can look at Super, Goku and Vegeta regressed to their pre-Buu saga personalities just to keep the series going.

I think that happens with any continuation of a franchise that ended a long time ago, so it's not only Star Wars here. Probably doesn't help matters the current people writing were the original kid/teen fans who grew up with it, so it sort of has a "published fanfiction" mentality to it.

Definitely.
But SW had an Extended Universe which took characters in various directions.

I am not saying Sequels should have followed those directions, but at least creators could do something more creative than basically bringing characters 20 years later and doesn't change them from OT one bit.
With the seemingly exception for Luke, which still had repeated they way of Obi-Wan and Yoda.

I mean, they were so many ideas and things that could be used and they opted for the least exciting and least creative option possible. It's really disappointing.

[dl316bh]

that's character assassination.

Character assassination is deliberately and falsely trying to harm someones good reputation.

Whatever your opinion on the direction of fictional characters, it's not character assassination.

Also I don't know what else people expected of Leia? She's defending the Rebels like she should, what else did you expect?

It's also what she's always been doing in any form of post-RotJ fiction. The only thing I can remember her stepping up for force training over other duties was in an Infinities comic where Luke died during Empire Strikes Back and someone had to carry the torch. In the EU and such, she chose to be a politician and work on establishing the New Republic, which is absolutely a choice she would make, especially given she already had experience. Aside from her blood family history, which she didn't even know until Return, the Jedi didn't mean much to her. She'd been more involved in the political life led by her adopted father, who was once a senator.

I kind of agree that characters sort of "froze" into roles they had back in the OT.

I think that's definitely true of Han and it's something I did not like about Force Awakens. It seems too stupidly simple to just have him be a smuggler again rather than redefine his role in the universe after becoming a damn general and a war hero.

[Andrew NDB]

If they didn't want to have Han be General Han Solo, old war hero of the Republic (like he was in the EU) they could have done something else, anything else but make him a damn smuggler again. Maybe he goes all Jane Goodall on Kashyyyk, tending to sick Wookiees or something, or in some kind of New Republic Intelligence.

[Vegita-San]

Originally Posted by dl316bh

Character assassination is deliberately and falsely trying to harm someones good reputation.

Whatever your opinion on the direction of fictional characters, it's not character assassination.

it may be a fictional character, but I think the description fits PERFECTLY.

they ruined lukes destiny so rey could be special.

[dl316bh]

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

it may be a fictional character, but I think the description fits PERFECTLY.

they ruined lukes destiny so rey could be special.

The movie literally ends with Luke Skywalker inspiring the galaxy one more time in a way no single person in this universe has before. Children are enacting his last stand with homemade figures. He's a legend.

His reputation could not possibly be higher.

If they didn't want to have Han be General Han Solo, old war hero of the Republic (like he was in the EU) they could have done something else, anything else but make him a damn smuggler again. Maybe he goes all Jane Goodall on Kashyyyk, tending to sick Wookiees or something, or in some kind of New Republic Intelligence.

Yeah, Hans situation was absolutely the laziest thing done in the new trilogy. It also ended up making Han look kind of pathetic. Taking what we've learned and saw in all the films into account, Han's a pretty garbage smuggler.

[Vegita-San]

Not really.

There is ZERO way that anyone would even have even heard of his accomplishments. ESPECIALLY that fast.

That ending was so badly tacked on, it made zero sense.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by dl316bh

Yeah, Hans situation was absolutely the laziest thing done in the new trilogy. It also ended up making Han look kind of pathetic. Taking what we've learned and saw in all the films into account, Han's a pretty garbage smuggler.

I was always under the assumption that was entirely the point.
Maybe that's why I don't see Han and Chewie returning to their old line of work in the wake of the loss of his son to be that unsurprising a character turn.

[dl316bh]

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

Not really.

There is ZERO way that anyone would even have even heard of his accomplishments. ESPECIALLY that fast.

That ending was so badly tacked on, it made zero sense.

Okay, now you're just straight up trying to negate what we actually saw in the film because it does not fit your views and coming up with any excuse for why it's not valid.

It was in the film. That denouement could also have been months later. If you don't like the film, fine - I don't think any Star Wars film has been universally loved since A New Hope - but let's not pretend the film didn't do things it actually did because it's inconvenient to your argument.