Mirage's Leatherhead - Continuity problems

bjaxx87 · 09-14-2014, 04:02 AM

I just finished reading the "RETURN TO NEW YORK" portion of the continuity timeline and I wonder if anyone else noticed that huge load of contradictions in the Leatherhead stories? While those stories are all pretty good reads, it gave me some headaches to read them back to back.

When I read "Threads" and "Triptyche", I didn't know anything about LH's later appearances, so I didn't have any problem with them. Quite the opposite, they worked very well together. You can argue about the fact that the Turtles don't remember LH in "Leatherhead", but I can live with it.

---

It was the epilogue of "Leatherhead" which made me scratch my head for the first time:

They offer their messed up lair to LH...?

At the end of of V1 #21 they obviously returned to their old lair, as it's the same entrance and even Peter Laird confirmed this in his creator's notes of Ultimate Edition V3:

I think it's cool that the look of the entrance to the Turtles' old underground lair is kept pretty consistent here with the way it was drawn in the first issue.

First issue:

Spoiler:

Return to New york:

Spoiler:

So I assumed they returned there and started a living again. But when they later offer it to Leatherhead it's still messed up from the mousers.

My idea: The Turtles just met there after the fight against Shredder. They lost contact with Leo, so they had to find a place to reunite and where else could that've been? But for safety reasons they found a new lair in another part of town (which wasn't messed up from mousers so badly) - instead of moving in again.

You can also assume that this was just a trip to New York while they still lived in Northampton, but why would they do that? They were hiding after all.

To be fair: I guess it's more like Kevin and Peter messed up continuity here. "Leatherhead" was published 1 year earlier than "Return to New York". So maybe Ryan Brown placed this story during the "LIVING WITH APRIL" years and didn't expect that the Turtles would return to their old lair someday (at least with no Leatherhead in sight).

---

In "Leatherhead, Too" I started to get confused when the Foot tried to open the door to the old lair:

Okay, the entrance isn't kept consistent anymore, but well, that's easy to be overlooked and doesn't hurt the story.

But why does Croaker say that they "didn't leave a door" in the old lair? The Turtles got driven out by the mousers...

Berger's "no-prize style workaround"...

The "before drove them out" bit refers to the TMNT fleeing NYC to go to Northampton (in issue #10) - not specifically fleeing the lair.

...doesn't really work so well. They explicitly wonder why the door and lock of the old lair are left intact. So they are referring to the lair and not the sewers as a whole. However, Berger admits that he "more than likely" screw up here, so I appreciate him trying to find an explanation ;).

---

Then we get to the point where Leatherhead explains his plans to build a transmat device...

A friggin transmat device...? That thing even the Utroms failed to build for so many years? In "Leatherhead" his plans were different:

All he wanted was getting picked up by the Utroms. But even for a communication device, his hands were too clumsy AND he didn't find enough materials. Now he suddenly had enough materials to almost finish a transmat device? Okay..., I don't have any good explanation for this.

---

My mouth fell open again, when I reached those panels:

They... still live in Northampton?

At the beginning of the story it's pretty clear that this takes place after Return to New York:

So did Berger assume that the Turtles didn't stay in New York after killing Shredder again? They just returned to Northampton? Including Raphael?

---

Oh well, in "Virus" I found another strange panel:

It was explained how LH lost his eye in "Leatherhead, Too":

http://s14.directupload.net/images/140914/h6w7xgd6.png
[I can't include more than 10 images, so I will only post the links frome here on.]

And we later get an explanation for the blackouts and self-healing in "Attack of the Replicants":

http://s1.directupload.net/images/140914/4mb7837y.png

So this works pretty fine among those stories, but why in the world did LH have a blackout so many years earlier in "Triptyche"?

http://s14.directupload.net/images/140914/r58pycxf.png
http://s1.directupload.net/images/140914/ty9rlo7r.png

His sudden rages even were foreshadowed in "Threads":

http://s7.directupload.net/images/140914/3d34pzx9.png

I guess we found another contradiction here...

---

The next thing I noticed was the "The Story Thus Far" page from "Attack of the Replicants":

http://s7.directupload.net/images/140914/dv7yzehl.png

Did Berger retcon the part of LH building the transmat device from scratch here? It indeed helps making the story more believable. LH could have picked up the damaged transmat device from the destroyed TCRI building. But this was never mentioned in any of the stories and it still contradicts his original plans from "Leatherhead".

---

Those panels gave me another headache:

http://s1.directupload.net/images/140914/znts3xmn.png

The Utroms know about Leatherhead's whereabouts and his friendship with the Turtles? How? And why didn't they just pick LH up earlier? All he wanted was getting to the Utrom homeworld and they just didn't care to use one of their many transmats? Especially Ribky who felt like a father for him?

---

Let's move on to "Monster Island"... So Marlin survived? The Bunyips were chewing on some metallic cyborg leg?

http://s14.directupload.net/images/140914/kwos7u2v.png

Doesn't really look like it...

---

The last thing I noticed isn't really a contradiction, but a little crazy:

http://s1.directupload.net/images/140914/iq5k3li8.png

LH got just another chemical cocktail to make him even more awesome and self-healing? And again it's his eye he lost and rebuild? Okay!

---

Phew, I know this thread looks like a huge rant, but don't get me wrong. I like Berger's stories a lot and I also like Leatherhead. It's just that I felt the urge to share my feelings about those continuity hiccups and I really would like to hear your thoughts about them. :)

*Cipher* · 09-14-2014, 05:09 PM

Just to pick up on one portion of this:

I think you're assuming that the Turtles immediately return to living in New York after killing the Shredder, when that isn't the case. They remain based in North Hampton for quite a while afterward, up until "City at War," in fact, when they move into the water tower and then Casey and April's apartment building.

Though there are stories that take place in New York between "Return to New York" and "City at War," such as "Leatherhead, Too," they're portrayed as excursions.

LH · 09-14-2014, 08:06 PM

So many pieces to Leatherhead's story... Many different odds and ends to sort through... I've always went with the notion his actions in "Leatherhead Too" were caused by the illuminated's drugging... Causing him to subconsciously change plans and do things he normaly wouldn't... Perhaps it was early on, so his eye hadn't healed yet and the growth aspects weren't in effect? Maybe the illuminated were responsible for him finding those supplies too? As for his rage in the flashback story... Perhaps he was just young and still learning the dangers of his abilities? The panel where he bites Splinter is more of a foreshadowing to his mutation being actually caused by exposure during their fight... At least that's what I get out of it...

Leatherhead's had many different writers over the years... Perhaps it's only natural things don't always fit together perfectly?

bjaxx87 · 09-15-2014, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cipher

I think you're assuming that the Turtles immediately return to living in New York after killing the Shredder, when that isn't the case. They remain based in North Hampton for quite a while afterward, up until "City at War," in fact, when they move into the water tower and then Casey and April's apartment building.

Though there are stories that take place in New York between "Return to New York" and "City at War," such as "Leatherhead, Too," they're portrayed as excursions.

That's an interesting point you bring up here and I think many writers were indeed going that route.

I was completely relying on DrSpengler's continuity timeline. He splits the Turtles' stay in Northampton in two parts and inserts some "living in the sewers" stories in between.

And I think there are good reasons for those placements. The stories contain following elements:

- The Turtles are living in a sewer lair.
- Casey is hanging out with them.
- Leo, Don and Mikey didn't get to know Casey before they were driven out of April's apartment.
- Casey is still a vigilante that goes out looking for trouble.
- The Turtles are attacked by unorganized groups of Foot Ninja.
- Even some of Berger's stories (which definitely take place after killing the second Shredder as we can see above) take place in a sewer lair (e.g. Virus, Attack of the Replicants, Splinter Cell, ...)
- In Eastman's "North by Downeast" Casey even talks about the Turtles having been in Northampton while he had his wild lobster adventures. And he tells his story while the Turtles live in a sewer lair.

So I don't think they just killed Shredder, returned to Northampton and stayed there until they moved into the water tower. They must have lived in the sewers again - before "City at War".

Quote:

Originally Posted by LH

I've always went with the notion his actions in "Leatherhead Too" were caused by the illuminated's drugging... Causing him to subconsciously change plans and do things he normaly wouldn't... Perhaps it was early on, so his eye hadn't healed yet and the growth aspects weren't in effect? Maybe the illuminated were responsible for him finding those supplies too?

Great ideas, that at least makes a little sense

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LH

The panel where he bites Splinter is more of a foreshadowing to his mutation being actually caused by exposure during their fight... At least that's what I get out of it...

LH was accidently exposed to the mutagen by Ribky. I don't think he did to Splinter, what Bloodsucker did to Raph ^^. And that rat (which I don't think was Splinter) looked pretty dead after LH's attack if I recall this correctly. I think the story showed how LH kept getting pushed around until he finally snapped and fought back in blind rage. But in the end he was merely a normal alligator biting a rat, so it's all just interpretation

.

LH · 09-15-2014, 07:17 AM

After reading DrSpengler's review of the issue, I do now see your point... I read online that the fight was with Splinter, and that his exposure to him is what caused the mutation... I saw the panel with this in mind and believed that statement to be true... However there is no indication of this being so from what I gather...

I really wish I had copies of some of these for better research... I've been going off of what I have access to at the moment...

I'm glad you approve of the notion that the Illuminated were involved in the events of "Leatherhead Too"... I haven't really heard anyone's thoughts on it until now... It just seemed like a natural explanation.

bjaxx87 · 09-16-2014, 04:10 AM

I wonder where you read that, seems like a lot of retconning for that little backup story.

I should take another look at Tales #50 when I'm home.

About your Illuminated theory: Maybe they wanted LH to focus on the impossible task to build a transmat, because they didn't want him to get in touch with the Utroms. They didn't actually need him to build a transmat to "crocnap" him, as they could just use their own devices.

LH · 09-16-2014, 09:19 AM

It was posted on his Wikipedia and Turtlepedia pages... Copy and pasted from one to another... In retrospect both of those sites are not reliable places for information...

Precisely! Maybe it was merely a distraction so they could perform their experiments while he was in a more or less secluded area where he would remain oblivious to the situation and the Utroms couldn't provide him with protection? It seems like they wanted to keep him away from their facilities while they monitored his reaction... That way he wouldn't resist the injections and be oblivious to the reason he was changing until they could knock him out and capture him...

09-14-2014, 04:02 AM	#1
bjaxx87 Foot Soldier Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 101	Mirage's Leatherhead - Continuity problems I just finished reading the "RETURN TO NEW YORK" portion of the continuity timeline and I wonder if anyone else noticed that huge load of contradictions in the Leatherhead stories? While those stories are all pretty good reads, it gave me some headaches to read them back to back. When I read "Threads" and "Triptyche", I didn't know anything about LH's later appearances, so I didn't have any problem with them. Quite the opposite, they worked very well together. You can argue about the fact that the Turtles don't remember LH in "Leatherhead", but I can live with it. --- It was the epilogue of "Leatherhead" which made me scratch my head for the first time: They offer their messed up lair to LH...? At the end of of V1 #21 they obviously returned to their old lair, as it's the same entrance and even Peter Laird confirmed this in his creator's notes of Ultimate Edition V3: I think it's cool that the look of the entrance to the Turtles' old underground lair is kept pretty consistent here with the way it was drawn in the first issue. First issue: Spoiler: Return to New york: Spoiler: So I assumed they returned there and started a living again. But when they later offer it to Leatherhead it's still messed up from the mousers. My idea: The Turtles just met there after the fight against Shredder. They lost contact with Leo, so they had to find a place to reunite and where else could that've been? But for safety reasons they found a new lair in another part of town (which wasn't messed up from mousers so badly) - instead of moving in again. You can also assume that this was just a trip to New York while they still lived in Northampton, but why would they do that? They were hiding after all. To be fair: I guess it's more like Kevin and Peter messed up continuity here. "Leatherhead" was published 1 year earlier than "Return to New York". So maybe Ryan Brown placed this story during the "LIVING WITH APRIL" years and didn't expect that the Turtles would return to their old lair someday (at least with no Leatherhead in sight). --- In "Leatherhead, Too" I started to get confused when the Foot tried to open the door to the old lair: Okay, the entrance isn't kept consistent anymore, but well, that's easy to be overlooked and doesn't hurt the story. But why does Croaker say that they "didn't leave a door" in the old lair? The Turtles got driven out by the mousers... Berger's "no-prize style workaround"... The "before drove them out" bit refers to the TMNT fleeing NYC to go to Northampton (in issue #10) - not specifically fleeing the lair. ...doesn't really work so well. They explicitly wonder why the door and lock of the old lair are left intact. So they are referring to the lair and not the sewers as a whole. However, Berger admits that he "more than likely" screw up here, so I appreciate him trying to find an explanation ;). --- Then we get to the point where Leatherhead explains his plans to build a transmat device... A friggin transmat device...? That thing even the Utroms failed to build for so many years? In "Leatherhead" his plans were different: All he wanted was getting picked up by the Utroms. But even for a communication device, his hands were too clumsy AND he didn't find enough materials. Now he suddenly had enough materials to almost finish a transmat device? Okay..., I don't have any good explanation for this. --- My mouth fell open again, when I reached those panels: They... still live in Northampton? At the beginning of the story it's pretty clear that this takes place after Return to New York: So did Berger assume that the Turtles didn't stay in New York after killing Shredder again? They just returned to Northampton? Including Raphael? --- Oh well, in "Virus" I found another strange panel: It was explained how LH lost his eye in "Leatherhead, Too": http://s14.directupload.net/images/140914/h6w7xgd6.png [I can't include more than 10 images, so I will only post the links frome here on.] And we later get an explanation for the blackouts and self-healing in "Attack of the Replicants": http://s1.directupload.net/images/140914/4mb7837y.png So this works pretty fine among those stories, but why in the world did LH have a blackout so many years earlier in "Triptyche"? http://s14.directupload.net/images/140914/r58pycxf.png http://s1.directupload.net/images/140914/ty9rlo7r.png His sudden rages even were foreshadowed in "Threads": http://s7.directupload.net/images/140914/3d34pzx9.png I guess we found another contradiction here... --- The next thing I noticed was the "The Story Thus Far" page from "Attack of the Replicants": http://s7.directupload.net/images/140914/dv7yzehl.png Did Berger retcon the part of LH building the transmat device from scratch here? It indeed helps making the story more believable. LH could have picked up the damaged transmat device from the destroyed TCRI building. But this was never mentioned in any of the stories and it still contradicts his original plans from "Leatherhead". --- Those panels gave me another headache: http://s1.directupload.net/images/140914/znts3xmn.png The Utroms know about Leatherhead's whereabouts and his friendship with the Turtles? How? And why didn't they just pick LH up earlier? All he wanted was getting to the Utrom homeworld and they just didn't care to use one of their many transmats? Especially Ribky who felt like a father for him? --- Let's move on to "Monster Island"... So Marlin survived? The Bunyips were chewing on some metallic cyborg leg? http://s14.directupload.net/images/140914/kwos7u2v.png Doesn't really look like it... --- The last thing I noticed isn't really a contradiction, but a little crazy: http://s1.directupload.net/images/140914/iq5k3li8.png LH got just another chemical cocktail to make him even more awesome and self-healing? And again it's his eye he lost and rebuild? Okay! --- Phew, I know this thread looks like a huge rant, but don't get me wrong. I like Berger's stories a lot and I also like Leatherhead. It's just that I felt the urge to share my feelings about those continuity hiccups and I really would like to hear your thoughts about them. :) Last edited by bjaxx87; 09-15-2014 at 01:20 AM.

09-14-2014, 05:09 PM	#2
Cipher Foot Elite Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 3,454	Just to pick up on one portion of this: I think you're assuming that the Turtles immediately return to living in New York after killing the Shredder, when that isn't the case. They remain based in North Hampton for quite a while afterward, up until "City at War," in fact, when they move into the water tower and then Casey and April's apartment building. Though there are stories that take place in New York between "Return to New York" and "City at War," such as "Leatherhead, Too," they're portrayed as excursions.

09-14-2014, 08:06 PM	#3
LH Leatherhead Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 1,705	So many pieces to Leatherhead's story... Many different odds and ends to sort through... I've always went with the notion his actions in "Leatherhead Too" were caused by the illuminated's drugging... Causing him to subconsciously change plans and do things he normaly wouldn't... Perhaps it was early on, so his eye hadn't healed yet and the growth aspects weren't in effect? Maybe the illuminated were responsible for him finding those supplies too? As for his rage in the flashback story... Perhaps he was just young and still learning the dangers of his abilities? The panel where he bites Splinter is more of a foreshadowing to his mutation being actually caused by exposure during their fight... At least that's what I get out of it... Leatherhead's had many different writers over the years... Perhaps it's only natural things don't always fit together perfectly?

09-15-2014, 07:17 AM	#5
LH Leatherhead Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 1,705	After reading DrSpengler's review of the issue, I do now see your point... I read online that the fight was with Splinter, and that his exposure to him is what caused the mutation... I saw the panel with this in mind and believed that statement to be true... However there is no indication of this being so from what I gather... I really wish I had copies of some of these for better research... I've been going off of what I have access to at the moment... I'm glad you approve of the notion that the Illuminated were involved in the events of "Leatherhead Too"... I haven't really heard anyone's thoughts on it until now... It just seemed like a natural explanation.

09-16-2014, 04:10 AM	#6
bjaxx87 Foot Soldier Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 101	I wonder where you read that, seems like a lot of retconning for that little backup story. I should take another look at Tales #50 when I'm home. About your Illuminated theory: Maybe they wanted LH to focus on the impossible task to build a transmat, because they didn't want him to get in touch with the Utroms. They didn't actually need him to build a transmat to "crocnap" him, as they could just use their own devices.

09-16-2014, 09:19 AM	#7
LH Leatherhead Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 1,705	It was posted on his Wikipedia and Turtlepedia pages... Copy and pasted from one to another... In retrospect both of those sites are not reliable places for information... Precisely! Maybe it was merely a distraction so they could perform their experiments while he was in a more or less secluded area where he would remain oblivious to the situation and the Utroms couldn't provide him with protection? It seems like they wanted to keep him away from their facilities while they monitored his reaction... That way he wouldn't resist the injections and be oblivious to the reason he was changing until they could knock him out and capture him...