Nick comparisons to 2k3 series

[aliena]

Originally Posted by The-Shredder

I think you're being too hard on 2003 Mikey. Yes, he can come off as extremely flamboyant and selfish, and less so at other times (which I think adds to the humor of the character), but to say he isn't as compassionate is inaccurate. An example of his compassionate behavior would be in the Season 2 "Rogue in the House" episodes where he makes friends with Zog, the Season 3 episode "The Christmas Aliens," or even in Season 1's "The Unconvincing Turtle Titan."

I sure wish I didn't have to be so hard on him. Usually, Mikey is a character that I am very fond of. Maybe on my second viewing I'll see him differently. He is compassionate with Klunk and almost died for him, well, if things had been what they seemed he would have almost died for him. The last few episodes I have watched have shown him to have more compassion toward others. His caring of poor Donnie in Good Genes was also compassionate.

I think it was the constant bragging about the battle nexus that turned me off. Even when he had to do Grudge Match and Raph, Don and Splinter turned away from him to teach him a lesson, I wanted him to learn his lesson. Leo was fantastic in that episode and stood by him no matter what, good thing too.

[srmff]

Originally Posted by aliena

I sure wish I didn't have to be so hard on him. Usually, Mikey is a character that I am very fond of. Maybe on my second viewing I'll see him differently. He is compassionate with Klunk and almost died for him, well, if things had been what they seemed he would have almost died for him. The last few episodes I have watched have shown him to have more compassion toward others. His caring of poor Donnie in Good Genes was also compassionate.

I think it was the constant bragging about the battle nexus that turned me off. Even when he had to do Grudge Match and Raph, Don and Splinter turned away from him to teach him a lesson, I wanted him to learn his lesson. Leo was fantastic in that episode and stood by him no matter what, good thing too.

I think most people find Michelangelo obnoxious in 2003 so you're not alone. Although my brother does like him and prefers him to the Nick version so he does have some fans. He didn't actually bother me in the show but he was probably my least favourite turtle.

[ImmaAxolotl]

Now my opinion is most likely biased because I practically grew up on 2K3, but I'll try to keep things balanced.

-While I did enjoy 2012 Leo being a fanboy, now that he's grown beyond that I can't help but wonder: what else is there? I mean, there's that thing with Karai, but the show doesn't really show how it affects him as a person.
-While 2003 Leo did get the most focus, it seemed to be for valid reasons (his shot confidence from almost being killed by the Shredder, his frustration about being helpless to do anything during Exodus, being wrong about Karai, etc). It would've been nice if the other turtles also had this amount of focus and character development.

-2012 Mikey is incredibly annoying and stupid. While he does have his moments (such as with Leatherhead), I just wish he was more mature and acted his age (the guy isn't 2 anymore).
-2003 Mikey was arrogant, made pop-culture references, and was quite the scaredy-cat if you'd believe it. I think this has to do with his comfort zone. Despite his drawbacks, he surprising understands a lot about his brother (as revealed in Samurai Tourist and the Battle Nexus fight against Raph). It's hard to say whether or not he acts annoying to mess with his family members.

-2012 Raph used to have interesting characteristics, but those seemed to have faded over time. The episodes that "focus" on him don't leave any lasting effects (such as only being torn up about Slash at the end of the latter's debut episode). The writers also seem to tweak his character to fit the course of whatever episode, as shown in Clash of the Mutanimals, where his temper was overblown for the sake of plot. It seems like no one at Nick knows what to do with him.
-2003 Raph may not have had the same amount of interesting characteristics like his Nick counterpart, but his character and development was very consistent. There are many moments are B-plots showing that he isn't all gruffness, but no A-plots focusing specifically on that. His hatred of bugs and dry sarcasm are entertaining, and he cares deeply about all of his brothers, even Leo. Another difference between 2003 Raph and the 2012 one is his rivalry with Leo, which isn't quite as violent as the Mirage counterparts (but that's for another day).

-2012 Don is a loud, obsessive, arrogant spaz who fell in love with April at first sight and almost became a satellite character because of it. His stalking definitely gives a creepy vibe (thank goodness he stopped it), and his jealousy of Casey seems to turn into an unlikely friendship whenever the writers seem fit. Many times, he has had "funny" little freak-outs that are more annoying than anything else, and has abandoned his brothers to save April (another thing that has improved). Now that I think about it, he's surprisingly similar to 2003's Baxter Stockman when one considers how they act. It's probably just me, however. All of his development primarily focused on April and/or Casey. As of writing this, he has also failed to cure Timothy and Karai, practically forgetting about the former.
-2003 is almost too nice; he has good relations with all of his family members, is good friends with April and Leatherhead (lukewarm with Casey, it seems), and just seems to be a good guy to be around. When considering all of the events he's forced to endure (such as losing Kirby, being captured and tortured by Triceratons, losing his mind and becoming a monster, witnessing his master become data bits, etc), it's a wonder how this turtle is still sane. It can be assumed, however, that his niceness is a sort of outer shell like Raph's gruffness due to his violent murder of the Shredder during the events of Same As It Never Was. Sadly, we don't get any episodes addressing this matter, although there are many times when his scientific prowess has saved the day, such as when he found a cure for the people of the underground. Although I would love to see more focus on his emotional development, I'm never disappointed by this version (especially since he treats women as people).

This probably looks like a wall of text by now, so I'm stopping here. Have I been too analytical? Am I delving too much into this? Oh well, I guess.

EDIT: I just realized how each paragraph gets longer. This is unintentionally hilarious.

[ABrown]

I just like the 4Kids series more than I like the Nick series. I don't know, I'm sure that there's people out there who like the Nick series more. But for me, I'll take the 4Kids series.

[Foombamaroom]

Originally Posted by aliena

I sure wish I didn't have to be so hard on him. Usually, Mikey is a character that I am very fond of. Maybe on my second viewing I'll see him differently. He is compassionate with Klunk and almost died for him, well, if things had been what they seemed he would have almost died for him. The last few episodes I have watched have shown him to have more compassion toward others. His caring of poor Donnie in Good Genes was also compassionate.

I think it was the constant bragging about the battle nexus that turned me off. Even when he had to do Grudge Match and Raph, Don and Splinter turned away from him to teach him a lesson, I wanted him to learn his lesson. Leo was fantastic in that episode and stood by him no matter what, good thing too.

Mikey 2003 > Mikey 2012 in my opinion. I'd take a Mikey that possesses common sense over the one who can be just plain stupid at times.

Originally Posted by ImmaAxolotl

Now my opinion is most likely biased because I practically grew up on 2K3, but I'll try to keep things balanced.

-While I did enjoy 2012 Leo being a fanboy, now that he's grown beyond that I can't help but wonder: what else is there? I mean, there's that thing with Karai, but the show doesn't really show how it affects him as a person.
-While 2003 Leo did get the most focus, it seemed to be for valid reasons (his shot confidence from almost being killed by the Shredder, his frustration about being helpless to do anything during Exodus, being wrong about Karai, etc). It would've been nice if the other turtles also had this amount of focus and character development.

-2012 Mikey is incredibly annoying and stupid. While he does have his moments (such as with Leatherhead), I just wish he was more mature and acted his age (the guy isn't 2 anymore).
-2003 Mikey was arrogant, made pop-culture references, and was quite the scaredy-cat if you'd believe it. I think this has to do with his comfort zone. Despite his drawbacks, he surprising understands a lot about his brother (as revealed in Samurai Tourist and the Battle Nexus fight against Raph). It's hard to say whether or not he acts annoying to mess with his family members.

-2012 Raph used to have interesting characteristics, but those seemed to have faded over time. The episodes that "focus" on him don't leave any lasting effects (such as only being torn up about Slash at the end of the latter's debut episode). The writers also seem to tweak his character to fit the course of whatever episode, as shown in Clash of the Mutanimals, where his temper was overblown for the sake of plot. It seems like no one at Nick knows what to do with him.
-2003 Raph may not have had the same amount of interesting characteristics like his Nick counterpart, but his character and development was very consistent. There are many moments are B-plots showing that he isn't all gruffness, but no A-plots focusing specifically on that. His hatred of bugs and dry sarcasm are entertaining, and he cares deeply about all of his brothers, even Leo. Another difference between 2003 Raph and the 2012 one is his rivalry with Leo, which isn't quite as violent as the Mirage counterparts (but that's for another day).

-2012 Don is a loud, obsessive, arrogant spaz who fell in love with April at first sight and almost became a satellite character because of it. His stalking definitely gives a creepy vibe (thank goodness he stopped it), and his jealousy of Casey seems to turn into an unlikely friendship whenever the writers seem fit. Many times, he has had "funny" little freak-outs that are more annoying than anything else, and has abandoned his brothers to save April (another thing that has improved). Now that I think about it, he's surprisingly similar to 2003's Baxter Stockman when one considers how they act. It's probably just me, however. All of his development primarily focused on April and/or Casey. As of writing this, he has also failed to cure Timothy and Karai, practically forgetting about the former.
-2003 is almost too nice; he has good relations with all of his family members, is good friends with April and Leatherhead (lukewarm with Casey, it seems), and just seems to be a good guy to be around. When considering all of the events he's forced to endure (such as losing Kirby, being captured and tortured by Triceratons, losing his mind and becoming a monster, witnessing his master become data bits, etc), it's a wonder how this turtle is still sane. It can be assumed, however, that his niceness is a sort of outer shell like Raph's gruffness due to his violent murder of the Shredder during the events of Same As It Never Was. Sadly, we don't get any episodes addressing this matter, although there are many times when his scientific prowess has saved the day, such as when he found a cure for the people of the underground. Although I would love to see more focus on his emotional development, I'm never disappointed by this version (especially since he treats women as people).

This probably looks like a wall of text by now, so I'm stopping here. Have I been too analytical? Am I delving too much into this? Oh well, I guess.

EDIT: I just realized how each paragraph gets longer. This is unintentionally hilarious.

Okay, I'm going to respond to each of your analyses based on the Turtles.
Leo: For 2003, it really would've been nice. While it did pay off for Leo, it kind of hindered the other Turtles.
For 2012, I'm fine with Leo's development, since I really like most of his development episodes, but I just think they should lay off. If you haven't noticed, most Shredder episodes are Leo centric.

Mikey: For 2003, I honestly really like this Mikey. He's probably one of my favorite versions of the character, with the exception of IDW and the '90s movie. He's not stupid, he's just a wise-ass and it makes you understand how annoying he can get to Raph.
For 2012, my god, he's unbearable in the first season. He's gotten better since, and I've developed a little bit of a soft spot for him, but he just seems like the odd one out rather than a comic relief.

Raph: 2003 I'm more okay with him not having as many episodes as 2012 Raph. I'll get to what I mean by that in a second. Anyways, 2003 Raph was perfect in my opinion. They did develop him, not as much as they should've, but they did develop him using secondary B plots like you said. By the end of the series, it made him more dimensional, even though he didn't get many centric episodes.
2012 My god, Raph is still just as great as he is before, except he's not. His anger is so inconsistent. If you're going to make him a hothead in all of his centric episodes, make him a hothead in all of the episodes. I liked the fact that he was actually terrified of bugs, but they didn't seem to do much with that. Raph's always been my favorite Turtle, so it's kind of sucky to see him treated like that.

Donnie: 2003 Probably one of my favorite versions of the character, besides the 90s movie. He's just a genuine nice guy and he's necessary to the team. Donnie episodes are very much enjoyable with this character, so he's a great version. However, I feel the writers didn't emphasize how needed he was in the team.
2012 THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I'VE LEGITIMATELY HATED ONE OF THE TURTLES. They OVERLOAD him with plots, forget about the major ones, and then have him flirt with April and rival Casey. No one likes those plots except for the Tumblr fangirls. Any episode that he's not the central focus on, he's fine. Any episode he's the central focus on, there's a good chance I'll never re-watch it.

Summary: I think the 2012 series needs to master its consistency. I prefer the Turtles themselves of 2003 solely because they remained consistent. Whenever they would develop, they'd stay developed. While the Turtles of 2012 are great, it seems like their weakest qualities always show during their centric episodes rather than other episodes that don't focus on them.

[ImmaAxolotl]

Originally Posted by Foombamaroom

Mikey 2003 > Mikey 2012 in my opinion. I'd take a Mikey that possesses common sense over the one who can be just plain stupid at times.


Okay, I'm going to respond to each of your analyses based on the Turtles.
Leo: For 2003, it really would've been nice. While it did pay off for Leo, it kind of hindered the other Turtles.
For 2012, I'm fine with Leo's development, since I really like most of his development episodes, but I just think they should lay off. If you haven't noticed, most Shredder episodes are Leo centric.

Mikey: For 2003, I honestly really like this Mikey. He's probably one of my favorite versions of the character, with the exception of IDW and the '90s movie. He's not stupid, he's just a wise-ass and it makes you understand how annoying he can get to Raph.
For 2012, my god, he's unbearable in the first season. He's gotten better since, and I've developed a little bit of a soft spot for him, but he just seems like the odd one out rather than a comic relief.

Raph: 2003 I'm more okay with him not having as many episodes as 2012 Raph. I'll get to what I mean by that in a second. Anyways, 2003 Raph was perfect in my opinion. They did develop him, not as much as they should've, but they did develop him using secondary B plots like you said. By the end of the series, it made him more dimensional, even though he didn't get many centric episodes.
2012 My god, Raph is still just as great as he is before, except he's not. His anger is so inconsistent. If you're going to make him a hothead in all of his centric episodes, make him a hothead in all of the episodes. I liked the fact that he was actually terrified of bugs, but they didn't seem to do much with that. Raph's always been my favorite Turtle, so it's kind of sucky to see him treated like that.

Donnie: 2003 Probably one of my favorite versions of the character, besides the 90s movie. He's just a genuine nice guy and he's necessary to the team. Donnie episodes are very much enjoyable with this character, so he's a great version. However, I feel the writers didn't emphasize how needed he was in the team.
2012 THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I'VE LEGITIMATELY HATED ONE OF THE TURTLES. They OVERLOAD him with plots, forget about the major ones, and then have him flirt with April and rival Casey. No one likes those plots except for the Tumblr fangirls. Any episode that he's not the central focus on, he's fine. Any episode he's the central focus on, there's a good chance I'll never re-watch it.

Summary: I think the 2012 series needs to master its consistency. I prefer the Turtles themselves of 2003 solely because they remained consistent. Whenever they would develop, they'd stay developed. While the Turtles of 2012 are great, it seems like their weakest qualities always show during their centric episodes rather than other episodes that don't focus on them.

I really like your analyzation of my analyzation, and I agree with everything you say! I was just trying not to be biased for the sake of the 2012 fans.

And yes, I also hate 2012 Don. Everything from his design to his personality annoys me. Making this listy-thing also made me aware of something: if the last two/three seasons of the 2003 show focused exclusively on character development, the show would've been literally perfect.

[Foombamaroom]

Originally Posted by ImmaAxolotl

I really like your analyzation of my analyzation, and I agree with everything you say! I was just trying not to be biased for the sake of the 2012 fans.

And yes, I also hate 2012 Don. Everything from his design to his personality annoys me. Making this listy-thing also made me aware of something: if the last two/three seasons of the 2003 show focused exclusively on character development, the show would've been literally perfect.

Plus having a little more consistency with the villains (not swapping between Bishop/Shredder and randoms), it would've been the best TMNT series to date.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by aliena

I think it was the constant bragging about the battle nexus that turned me off.

Oh, GOD, I wanted to put that little bastard in the Camel Clutch so badly.

Still like him better than Nick Mikey, though. He may have been obnoxious but at least he had a brain.

[pennydreadful]

For my money, I liked 2k3 Mikey, Don, Raph and Leo just fine.

As far as Nick goes, there are things I like and things I don't. I adore Nick's version of Karai and I actually really enjoy Snarkatello (2k12 Don), though I don't care for the love triangle at all. I like Leo in the show and enjoyed Mikey's off-the-wall humor before it became literally all that there was to him as a character. Raph is basically written as a one-dimensional meathead in the series, which I find boring but it's a mixed bag - Nick has made some good changes and some not-so-good ones. I can't stand 2k12 April or Casey, but think that 2k12 Splinter rocks tits (and when my cats are engaged in the bounding-rompus game at ridiculous hours I have been known to stand at the top of the stairs and loudly demand to know "What is going ON IN HERE?)

So IMO, 2k3 is better written but there are still a lot of things I like about Seasons 1 and 2 of the Nick show.

[Redeemer]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Too much testosterone. It's what happens when people scare off all the Fem-Nazi Lezbot T-Cest Shipper Trash and they all take to Tumblr instead.

I have not literally and utterly laughed out loud in forever!!!!!

[Leo656]

[Shark_Blade]

Nick obviously. There's faaaar more things to dislike in 2k3.

- stupid, annoying, obnoxious Casey.
- too much magic
- too much planetary travel
- too much aliens
- Oroku Saki is actually a disgusting alien slob, ew. Meh what a downer
- Hun is merely a big oaf
- Raph's voice sounds like a 50 years old chain-smoker instead of a teenager
- Don is a goody two-shoes pushover, he's literally a doormat. He severely lack personality, most of the time he's just there or as an inventor to help the plot and that's it.
- Leo is obnoxious, cocky asshole that thinks he's the greatest and all. I greatly dislike this Leo the most compared to any other versions.
- Mikey's tiresome jokes/pun for all occasions...seriously?? Also that constant bringing up about battlenexus. Ugh.


It had some good things like Miyamoto Usagi. But then that cringeworthy Fast Forward happened, and what a mess that Back to the Sewer with wtf digital Shredder and all. Ran out of creativity juice more like it.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Oh, GOD, I wanted to put that little bastard in the Camel Clutch so badly.

Still like him better than Nick Mikey, though. He may have been obnoxious but at least he had a brain.

I'll agree with the second part, at least. However, I fully understood why he was so obnoxious about the Battle Nexus, and I felt it made sense for him to act that way- he was rubbing it in to his brothers who had written him off as any sort of contender before the tournament started, and then when he WON none of them could believe it- particularly Raph, who had been the MOST disparaging of him. His win in Grudge Match only proved his win was legitimate, and he laid off after that, because he no longer had anything to prove. I liked that little bit of character development, because it showed how insecure he was deep down, when usually he ACTED more cocky in public.

Also- his "screaming like a girl" thing- anyone but me ever notice it was usually followed by a "retreat", only for him to come back and whoop a$$ on someone when they took the bait? Anyone? I found that hilarious.

Originally Posted by Shark_Blade

Nick obviously. There's faaaar more things to dislike in 2k3.

- stupid, annoying, obnoxious Casey.
- too much magic
- too much planetary travel
- too much aliens
- Oroku Saki is actually a disgusting alien slob, ew. Meh what a downer
- Hun is merely a big oaf
- Raph's voice sounds like a 50 years old chain-smoker instead of a teenager
- Don is a goody two-shoes pushover, he's literally a doormat. He severely lack personality, most of the time he's just there or as an inventor to help the plot and that's it.
- Leo is obnoxious, cocky asshole that thinks he's the greatest and all. I greatly dislike this Leo the most compared to any other versions.
- Mikey's tiresome jokes/pun for all occasions...seriously?? Also that constant bringing up about battlenexus. Ugh.


It had some good things like Miyamoto Usagi. But then that cringeworthy Fast Forward happened, and what a mess that Back to the Sewer with wtf digital Shredder and all. Ran out of creativity juice more like it.

And this is from a guy who LOVES the 2014 movie. (I "liked" it, but.... well, just wish it wasn't so darn full of plot-holes and bad dialog.)

[Shark_Blade]

Nothing wrong with liking 2k14. I like it despite the flaws and it made $1/2 billion so far.

But this is Nick and 2k3, so discuss only those two.

[Jester]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

And this is from a guy who LOVES the 2014 movie. (I "liked" it, but.... well, just wish it wasn't so darn full of plot-holes and bad dialog.)

My thoughts exactly. 4Kids TMNT has it's issues (MIKEY) but it's still miles away better than Liebesman's "opus".

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Jester

it's still miles away better than Liebesman's "opus".

To be fair, so is the Black Death.

[Shark_Blade]

I'm glad Nick changed Hun into Bruce Lee, and IDW also made Hun a more appealing character as Casey's father.

Anything is better than 2k3 Hun who is pretty pointless as a henchman. Replace him with Shredder's Elite guard and no one'd even miss him.

[Foombamaroom]

Originally Posted by Leo656

To be fair, so is the Black Death.

^DYING AT THIS.


Honestly, TMNT 2012 has a lot of flaws, but I don't see them when I'm watching. I usually see them when I discuss the show. The new movie, on the other hand, well, I had to walk out of the theatre when I saw that Splinter raised them from a book. I come back in, and I see the walking Iron Throne fighting the rat.

[Shark_Blade]

Then it's settled. Nick is superior than 2k3 in most things.

Also 2k3 origin, a rat copying its owner and became a ninja master? Lame and awfully bad.

[Leo656]

It's "settled' that most of the room consistently ignores you and talks around your perimeter while you consistently fail to notice because you have no self-awareness.

Originally Posted by Foombamaroom

Honestly, TMNT 2012 has a lot of flaws, but I don't see them when I'm watching. I usually see them when I discuss the show. The new movie, on the other hand, well, I had to walk out of the theatre when I saw that Splinter raised them from a book. I come back in, and I see the walking Iron Throne fighting the rat.

Oh, gosh, I'm the same way with shows or movies. I can absolutely sit and enjoy a movie as I'm watching it, get engaged, kind of let things that annoy me slip as I'm more concerned with watching it play out to the end, and then walk away feeling fully satisfied. But that's never stopped me from also going, "Hey, y'know what was f*cked up, though?" later on. You do tend to dwell on things more when you're discussing them, rather than experiencing them in the moment. Just like in the moment, it's easier to disregard those flaws and simply roll with it.

It's when people hold up something full of cracks and refuse to admit it HAS any flaws, or work overtime to defend those flaws, that it drives me flippin' bananas. Some things are fun but don't hold up under scrutiny. Some things seem unimpressive at first glance but actually have lots of layers that you notice over time and analyzing of it. And some things are just plain awful. The wisdom is in knowing the difference.