TMNT Macro-Series: Raphael Preview and Discussion

Originally Posted by ChosenOne

She'd fit in as the leader if she wanted to take them in another direction. Who else is there? Ray and Herman are Hob's stooges, Sally is cool but she's a follower, not a leader... It'd be fun to see Alopex forced to lead a bunch of other mutated animals like herself, especially if they go up against Null's forces.

Ray and Herman siding with Hob doesn't make them random stooges. As a matter of fact, Ray has shown himself to be arguably the most capable member of the entire Mutanimals. I don't see the correlation between doing the shady work with your boss and not being a capable leader.

Sally's shown to, in a way, be the spiritual core of the Mutanimals several times already. The fact that she wasn't in opportunities to really show off her leadership skills doesn't mean she doesn't have any. I mean, Hell, the same logic could be applied to Alopex. She has shown literally no emotional attachment to the Mutanimals, she's shown no leadership skills, etc. Both Ray and Sally are way better choices at this point.

[ChosenOne]

Originally Posted by Igglet

Ray and Herman siding with Hob doesn't make them random stooges. As a matter of fact, Ray has shown himself to be arguably the most capable member of the entire Mutanimals. I don't see the correlation between doing the shady work with your boss and not being a capable leader.

Sally's shown to, in a way, be the spiritual core of the Mutanimals several times already. The fact that she wasn't in opportunities to really show off her leadership skills doesn't mean she doesn't have any. I mean, Hell, the same logic could be applied to Alopex. She has shown literally no emotional attachment to the Mutanimals, she's shown no leadership skills, etc. Both Ray and Sally are way better choices at this point.

Not "random", no, but they're definitely his henchmen, there to follow orders.

Sally's the spiritual core, the same role Mikey plays for the Turtles. Could you see Mikey being the leader over Leo? Alopex has displayed empathy towards other mutants' (ie, Zodi and Krisa, with mixed results) plight while at the same time being against a militaristic approach to mutantkind (ie, when she refused to join the Mutanimals under Hob, which she perceived as an army). Add both those traits and you get the right character to lead the team away from their goal of taking down humanity, and more towards becoming actual freedom fighters for exploited or abused mutants everywhere. Which, in turn, puts them on a collision course with Null. And it's great character development for her.

[Utrommaniac]

Yeah, I could see Alopex as being more of a "mascot" than a leader.

[ChosenOne]

Originally Posted by Utrommaniac

Yeah, I could see Alopex as being more of a "mascot" than a leader.

She'll never amount to much of a character that way. I could see her being the activist to Hob's militarist. Not to mention the Mutanimals already have a mascot in Pete, a heart in Sally, etc. (Look at us, passionately arguing plot points that will never even come to pass! Haha!)

[Utrommaniac]

Oh, I know how that is, I say glaringly at Krang backstory elements that don't connect or make sense.


I had actually forgotten that Hob and Alopex had met...

[ChosenOne]

Originally Posted by Utrommaniac

Oh, I know how that is, I say glaringly at Krang backstory elements that don't connect or make sense.

I had actually forgotten that Hob and Alopex had met...

That's the magic of this comic! Waiting for new issues is a drag but at least speculating is half the fun!

The only mutants Hob hasn't met are Karai's posse and Null's mutants. I look forward to seeing how he'll react to those in due time.

[daggio]

Since this Macro takes place after "Battle Lines", it should be interesting to see if Bishop is using some new cybernetic body or he's just being completely himself. If that's the case (that he'll be walking around without the use of a cyborg), I might have flashbacks to the Brain from "Pinky and the Brain".

[Utrommaniac]

Unless he doesn't have a spare body lying around...I'd say maybe not?

Originally Posted by ChosenOne

Not "random", no, but they're definitely his henchmen, there to follow orders.

Sally's the spiritual core, the same role Mikey plays for the Turtles. Could you see Mikey being the leader over Leo? Alopex has displayed empathy towards other mutants' (ie, Zodi and Krisa, with mixed results) plight while at the same time being against a militaristic approach to mutantkind (ie, when she refused to join the Mutanimals under Hob, which she perceived as an army). Add both those traits and you get the right character to lead the team away from their goal of taking down humanity, and more towards becoming actual freedom fighters for exploited or abused mutants everywhere. Which, in turn, puts them on a collision course with Null. And it's great character development for her.

Of course they're his henchmen. They're a part of his mutant army. That, in no way, makes them any less capable as leaders. As a matter of fact, being so closely involved with Hob's operations just makes them BETTER leaders.

You mentioned that Sally was the spiritual core of the Mutanimals and that's why she shouldn't lead, because she doesn't have the traits of a leader. Then you listed traits that Alopex has shown, empathy and striving for actual freedom fighting... both of which would be traits of someone serving as a spiritual core. COULD Alopex serve as a good leader? Sure. But Sally, Ray and even Herman are WAY better choices at the moment.

[ChosenOne]

Originally Posted by Igglet

Of course they're his henchmen. They're a part of his mutant army. That, in no way, makes them any less capable as leaders. As a matter of fact, being so closely involved with Hob's operations just makes them BETTER leaders.

You mentioned that Sally was the spiritual core of the Mutanimals and that's why she shouldn't lead, because she doesn't have the traits of a leader. Then you listed traits that Alopex has shown, empathy and striving for actual freedom fighting... both of which would be traits of someone serving as a spiritual core. COULD Alopex serve as a good leader? Sure. But Sally, Ray and even Herman are WAY better choices at the moment.

Mondo is his henchman too. Would you pick him to lead?

How many times has Sally been in the front lines? You don't take the getaway man into the bank during the robbery, or put the eleventh hour cavalry inside the fort. That's part of why she's not the best choice for leader, for someone who needs to be there and actually lead from the thick of it.

If things go as I foresee them going for the Mutanimals in the near future, then they'll need a hard swerve away from Hob's mindset and goals afterwards. Ray and Herman aren't distanced enough from him to provide that, and Sally just isn't enough. At least I don't think so. Would be happy to be proven wrong, and after all, this is the writers' world, we just live in it.

Originally Posted by ChosenOne

Mondo is his henchman too. Would you pick him to lead?

How many times has Sally been in the front lines? You don't take the getaway man into the bank during the robbery, or put the eleventh hour cavalry inside the fort. That's part of why she's not the best choice for leader, for someone who needs to be there and actually lead from the thick of it.

If things go as I foresee them going for the Mutanimals in the near future, then they'll need a hard swerve away from Hob's mindset and goals afterwards. Ray and Herman aren't distanced enough from him to provide that, and Sally just isn't enough. At least I don't think so. Would be happy to be proven wrong, and after all, this is the writers' world, we just live in it.

You seem to misunderstand. My argument isn't that, because Ray and Herman are his henchmen, they're better suited as leaders. It's that them being his henchmen doesn't make them incapable to step up as leaders. No, being involved with the boss' work doesn't instantly make you leader material but it sure doesn't hurt. You were the one who brought up them being henchmen.

Sally not having that many opportunities to show herself as leader material doesn't mean she isn't cut for it. As a matter of fact, I'd say, from what we've seen, things are pointing towards her being more than up for the task. And, back to us not having seen her in action that many times before- we haven't seen Alopex fighting alongside the Mutanimals either. Just because the plot hasn't demanded it yet doesn't mean it won't, that's true, but it also proves my point.

[ChosenOne]

Originally Posted by Igglet

You seem to misunderstand. My argument isn't that, because Ray and Herman are his henchmen, they're better suited as leaders. It's that them being his henchmen doesn't make them incapable to step up as leaders. No, being involved with the boss' work doesn't instantly make you leader material but it sure doesn't hurt. You were the one who brought up them being henchmen.

Sally not having that many opportunities to show herself as leader material doesn't mean she isn't cut for it. As a matter of fact, I'd say, from what we've seen, things are pointing towards her being more than up for the task. And, back to us not having seen her in action that many times before- we haven't seen Alopex fighting alongside the Mutanimals either. Just because the plot hasn't demanded it yet doesn't mean it won't, that's true, but it also proves my point.

No, what I mean is that they're too entrenched in Hob's ideals - having worked as his henchmen and confidants from the get-go - to be the change the Mutanimals need after what's coming. Sure, they're great soldiers and the team's heavy hitters now that Slash is gone, but having either of them as the leader would be the same as having Hob himself.

IDW have a tendency to surprise us with plot twists. One of the Mutanimals rising to the role of leader wouldn't be much of one, that's perfectly expected in most circumstances. But Alopex as head of the Mutanimals would be just as much of a twist as Splinter leading the Foot; she has displayed the empathy towards other mutants like I said, and her arc has slowly moved her from (literally) custom-made henchman to rogue warrior to finding a place with other mutants. There's a very logical next step for her to take here, and the alternative AFAWK would be to continue in the periphery of the plot like she has been for the last couple dozen issues. Not ideal by any means. Speaking of which, I wonder if Hob will be imprisoned rather than killed after his plan fails... A mutant prison, say, on Burnow Island, could be an interesting (and novel) concept. The Turtles have expressed doubt as to what to do with Leatherhead as well...

Originally Posted by ChosenOne

No, what I mean is that they're too entrenched in Hob's ideals - having worked as his henchmen and confidants from the get-go - to be the change the Mutanimals need after what's coming. Sure, they're great soldiers and the team's heavy hitters now that Slash is gone, but having either of them as the leader would be the same as having Hob himself.

IDW have a tendency to surprise us with plot twists. One of the Mutanimals rising to the role of leader wouldn't be much of one, that's perfectly expected in most circumstances. But Alopex as head of the Mutanimals would be just as much of a twist as Splinter leading the Foot; she has displayed the empathy towards other mutants like I said, and her arc has slowly moved her from (literally) custom-made henchman to rogue warrior to finding a place with other mutants. There's a very logical next step for her to take here, and the alternative AFAWK would be to continue in the periphery of the plot like she has been for the last couple dozen issues. Not ideal by any means. Speaking of which, I wonder if Hob will be imprisoned rather than killed after his plan fails... A mutant prison, say, on Burnow Island, could be an interesting (and novel) concept. The Turtles have expressed doubt as to what to do with Leatherhead as well...

Who's to say Ray (or Herman, but I wouldn't put him as the leader) wouldn't draw a line? What these characters would do in these hypothetical scenarios we don't know the details of depends on a lot of factors. How would Old Hob even be 'overthrown'? Would the Mutanimals turn against him? Would there be a civil war among them? I'd say we genuinely don't know enough to jump to conclusions at this point.

I do get your point, though. Even if Ray was less radical than Old Hob, it still wouldn't be enough of a change now, would it? I'd still say Sally would be a far better choice than Alopex nonetheless, but who knows.

However, I don't think the leadership of the Mutanimals is that big of a deal. They're a family, and, frankly, while them changing their direction would surely be interesting, I don't think it'd be THAT big of a deal. Not even comparable to Splinter taking over the Foot Clan, as that, quite literally, turned the entire TMNT universe on its head, it made the TURTLES the major powerhouse, it changed everything.

Lastly, I disagree with the idea that they're going to overthrow Hob. Character development is a thing ever so present in IDW TMNT and he should be the best example of it. I'd say it'd be MUCH more compelling if Hob gave up on the war and managed to forgive the humans for everything they've done to Mutants, to himself, to Slash.

[ChosenOne]

Originally Posted by Igglet

Who's to say Ray (or Herman, but I wouldn't put him as the leader) wouldn't draw a line? What these characters would do in these hypothetical scenarios we don't know the details of depends on a lot of factors. How would Old Hob even be 'overthrown'? Would the Mutanimals turn against him? Would there be a civil war among them? I'd say we genuinely don't know enough to jump to conclusions at this point.

(...)

Lastly, I disagree with the idea that they're going to overthrow Hob. Character development is a thing ever so present in IDW TMNT and he should be the best example of it. I'd say it'd be MUCH more compelling if Hob gave up on the war and managed to forgive the humans for everything they've done to Mutants, to himself, to Slash.

Not overthrown, no, but the Turtles will probably have to take Hob down for whatever it is he tries to do next. It's very, very likely that he will be done as their leader in the near future, after he tries to enact his war-on-humans plan and obviously fails. It might even happen in the course of City at War. But I fully expect the Mutanimals to go on afterwards, and for that they'll need a new leader. The whole team will need an ideological hard swerve after that. That's the point of this whole mental exercise I've been doing.

Originally Posted by ChosenOne

Not overthrown, no, but the Turtles will probably have to take Hob down for whatever it is he tries to do next. It's very, very likely that he will be done as their leader in the near future, after he tries to enact his war-on-humans plan and obviously fails. It might even happen in the course of City at War. But I fully expect the Mutanimals to go on afterwards, and for that they'll need a new leader. The whole team will need an ideological hard swerve after that. That's the point of this whole mental exercise I've been doing.

As I said, I'd still much prefer if they let Hob grow out of his kill all humans phase and for him to stay the 'leader'. Though I wouldn't even call him the leader, just the dad guy.

[ChosenOne]

Originally Posted by Igglet

As I said, I'd still much prefer if they let Hob grow out of his kill all humans phase and for him to stay the 'leader'. Though I wouldn't even call him the leader, just the dad guy.

I wouldn't be opposed to that, but it's just not in his character. Especially not now that the once pacifist Slash gave him the go-ahead to begin his crusade. Even in defeat, or especially in the face of it, Hob has always had the tendency to lash out viciously. Someone will have to put him down when all is said and done, for someone else's sake. My money's on either Raph or Splinter.

Originally Posted by ChosenOne

I wouldn't be opposed to that, but it's just not in his character. Especially not now that the once pacifist Slash gave him the go-ahead to begin his crusade. Even in defeat, or especially in the face of it, Hob has always had the tendency to lash out viciously. Someone will have to put him down when all is said and done, for someone else's sake. My money's on either Raph or Splinter.

Hob's went through a lot. Look and what he was like in the first issue. He's got an actual family now. He's got the most potential for growth out of all of the characters, in my opinion.

[ChosenOne]

Originally Posted by Igglet

Hob's went through a lot. Look and what he was like in the first issue. He's got an actual family now. He's got the most potential for growth out of all of the characters, in my opinion.

He (literally) lashed out at Mikey over losing a member of his family, though. And he's about to lash out at the rest of the world in a big, big way. I don't see him just being talked down after everything that's happened. I agree he has a lot of potential, but he's been amping up his anger over time, not reducing it.

[Utrommaniac]

Yeah, I'm pretty excited for to see what's next for Hob, after everything he's already been through.

Originally Posted by ChosenOne

He (literally) lashed out at Mikey over losing a member of his family, though. And he's about to lash out at the rest of the world in a big, big way. I don't see him just being talked down after everything that's happened. I agree he has a lot of potential, but he's been amping up his anger over time, not reducing it.

That's the point, though. You don't just talk the guy into giving up. You don't just have him gradually become friendlier and friendlier with the humans (you could, but it wouldn't really fit this story). Him going further and further down this hole that he's dug for himself and going mad with vengeance, only to eventually reach his most desperate point and realize how far he's sunk and managing to get himself out of there.