Does anyone else feel disillusioned with their fandom?

[Andrew NDB]

The Vol. 4 lettercol in a nutshell, over and over again:

Fan: "Hey Peter, I really hate what you're doing with Vol. 4."

Peter: "Don't like it? Don't buy it. Doesn't bother me. I'm just making it because I enjoy making it."

Fan: "That's not fair! You can't just ask us to stop buying it!"

Peter: "I don't know what to suggest, then. Maybe keep buying but don't read them?"

Fan: "B-b-b-but you're making big, stupid business mistakes and not growing Mirage Studios like you should!"

Peter: "Probably. But they're my mistakes to make and Mirage Studios belongs to me."

Fans everywhere: "RAHHHHHGGHHH!!!"

[Xav]

Originally Posted by Wildcat

I liked Rise. I intend to finish it even if it is canceled after it’s current hiatus.

What hiatus? I thought the second season just started?

[Leo656]

My thing with laird is/was, you can't claim that you're doing something "for the fans" and then just do a ton of stuff they don't like. He kind of switched gears along the way into making Vol. 4 more of a "personal satisfaction" deal, but he never changed his tune of, "You guys aren't doing ME any favors, I'm doing YOU guys a favor." And I can see why that would rub a lot of people the wrong way.

I've told the story many times about how my local comic dealers were furious about the state of Vol. 4. "With the cartoon out, a Ninja Turtles book should be flying off the shelf, but nobody except you buys the damn thing because it's ugly, it's boring, and it's nothing like the Ninja Turtles people want to see." People can argue for "artistic integrity" until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, not having a decent TMNT comic coming out at the exact same time the cartoons and toys were experiencing a resurgence was a pretty bad misfire. "Tales" was infinitely better than Vol. 4, and a lot more like what a "traditional" TMNT comic should be, but I think it suffered from a ton of "guilt by association". I remember always enjoying reading Tales, but Vol. 4 was entirely "meh".

I did my part, I bought them for as long as stores carried them, despite thinking they sucked. He still got my money, so in return, I feel like I can pretty much say whatever.

There's a fine line in any commercial art medium between "giving fans something they like and expect" and "Whateva, I do what I wan'!" I can respect Peter's artistic integrity, his "vision", whatever, but ultimately vol. 4 wasn't anywhere near as satisfying as it could have and should have been. And that's entirely on him. But to his credit, I'm pretty sure he feels the same.

[TommyT]

Originally Posted by PApagreg

This why I hate the term "Cal Arts" to describe this current trend of artstyles because so many people there worked on different things so by your logic The Iron Giant is "Cal Arts" because a bunch of students from that school worked on that film.

See my response to snake above. Or don’t. At least I don’t have to worry about Rise garbage being around any longer. Sorry about your luck.

Originally Posted by PApagreg

By the way Rise, PowerPuff Girls and Samurai Jack has better perspective than any action figured style action cartoon from the 80s.

Ok then

[TommyT]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

The Vol. 4 lettercol in a nutshell, over and over again:

Fan: "Hey Peter, I really hate what you're doing with Vol. 4."

Peter: "Don't like it? Don't buy it. Doesn't bother me. I'm just making it because I enjoy making it."

Fan: "That's not fair! You can't just ask us to stop buying it!"

Peter: "I don't know what to suggest, then. Maybe keep buying but don't read them?"

Fan: "B-b-b-but you're making big, stupid business mistakes and not growing Mirage Studios like you should!"

Peter: "Probably. But they're my mistakes to make and Mirage Studios belongs to me."

Fans everywhere: "RAHHHHHGGHHH!!!"

Good for him then. That said, revisiting those issues, I was, well, it is very very weird.

[Galactus]

I'm not really disillusioned with the fandom.

I am somewhat burned out with the franchise as a whole, we've gotten a lot of TMNT stuff in the last few years and little of it really that good and a few real disappointments. I'd be happy to let the franchise rest with film and television for a while and I know I'm not alone in that.

TMNT was already a corporate entity way before Peter Laird sold it. Sure, Laird seemed exert more authority over it in the 2000s and Playmates were largely hands off with it until toy sales dropped and then we had to go the future. Whatever misgivings I had with Nickelodeon/Viacom I naively thought that they knew better than to crank out something so fast after the 2012 series went off air particularly something like Rise. So I'm somewhat disillusioned with the franchise handlers than the fandom.

It's no fault of the fandom that they didn't embrace Rise. TMNT isn't like some of it's mass market contemporaries like Transformers, Power Rangers or Pokemon; all those franchises were built from the ground up to be self sustaining. There's new generations of Power Rangers, Transformers and Pokemon every few years but with TMNT you kinda have to use the same core characters and stories every time. It's not like you can't do new things but don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Plus it's all kinda moot whether the established fandom of thirty-somethings like it, the intended audience of kids seem to have turned their noses up at it too. I would personally put that down to their not being a significant turnover of children since the last version was cancelled and it just not being good. Admittedly I've only watched a handful of episodes but from new and different it seems a weird hodge podge of ideas that people disliked in previous versions.

Originally Posted by Leo656

My thing with laird is/was, you can't claim that you're doing something "for the fans" and then just do a ton of stuff they don't like. He kind of switched gears along the way into making Vol. 4 more of a "personal satisfaction" deal, but he never changed his tune of, "You guys aren't doing ME any favors, I'm doing YOU guys a favor." And I can see why that would rub a lot of people the wrong way.

I've told the story many times about how my local comic dealers were furious about the state of Vol. 4. "With the cartoon out, a Ninja Turtles book should be flying off the shelf, but nobody except you buys the damn thing because it's ugly, it's boring, and it's nothing like the Ninja Turtles people want to see." People can argue for "artistic integrity" until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, not having a decent TMNT comic coming out at the exact same time the cartoons and toys were experiencing a resurgence was a pretty bad misfire. "Tales" was infinitely better than Vol. 4, and a lot more like what a "traditional" TMNT comic should be, but I think it suffered from a ton of "guilt by association". I remember always enjoying reading Tales, but Vol. 4 was entirely "meh".

I did my part, I bought them for as long as stores carried them, despite thinking they sucked. He still got my money, so in return, I feel like I can pretty much say whatever.

There's a fine line in any commercial art medium between "giving fans something they like and expect" and "Whateva, I do what I wan'!" I can respect Peter's artistic integrity, his "vision", whatever, but ultimately vol. 4 wasn't anywhere near as satisfying as it could have and should have been. And that's entirely on him. But to his credit, I'm pretty sure he feels the same.

There's only been a handful of times success of a comic property in another medium has ever helped sales of the comics and most of those times are all Batman.

People aren't going to buy mass amounts of a black and white indie comic whether it was Vol. 4 or Tales. With Tales specially it's greatest strength was it's greatest weakness; it was an anthology book. While it could be better than Vol. 4 sometimes it could also be worse the next issue. It can be very frustrating to read a really cool story with a great creative team but learn that if you wanted a followup you had to write in and hope Laird green lit one that would appear ten or so issues from then.

I do think they should have been a bit wiser when licensing out the rights for a comic based on the '03 show rather than Dreamwave but even that was never going to be flying off the shelves. That's just wishful thinking.

To add to the issues the fandom had with Laird there was a very strong resentment of his (very mild) criticism of his the Fred Wolf series and his reluctance to use it's characters and tropes in new TMNT media. That was something a lot of the fandom was very happy about when he sold it, the idea we were going to get every Fred Wolf character and trope back was appealing to many at the time. (To their credit Nickledeon did not lean to heavy on it straight away.) I'm guessing many of those same fans now know to be careful what they wish for.

[PApagreg]

Originally Posted by TommyT

See my response to snake above. Or don’t. At least I don’t have to worry about Rise garbage being around any longer. Sorry about your luck.
https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/i...8b2715ae1e.jpg

Actually look at the response you quoted to know why your previous statement towards snake was dumb.

You know what, I'm done talking about art and animation on this site it's a fool's errand you guys want character designs to look like action figures and have "detail" then more power to ya because at this point its like talking to a brick wall.

[Candy Kappa]

Good old "I hate it so it's cal arts", equivalent to calling teenagers and kids "millennials" when giving them **** despite the youngest millennial is in their twenties and the oldest will in a few years reach forty.

It's not like trends in character designs exists in animation *looking back at 70's & 80's phletora of same designs/faces/styles like Hanna-Barbera and Filmation* nope, never.

[TommyT]

Originally Posted by TommyT

@snake - Andy Suriano, also responsible for the look of Samurai Jack, was s teacher at Cal Arts for 6 years, specifically 2010 -2016. Do you need more evidence or can we just agree that you like this schlock, and I hate it. My definition is sound, in all aspects.

How would you define cal arts? Its low IQ super simplified nonsense. Give me The 80’s Thundercats intro or Ralph Bakshi anyday.

Thing is, when something is done properly, there’s far less complaints. The Mandelorian is a prime example of what happens when quality is a top concern. The Last Jedi is what happens when you try to service a small segment if people only.

If they look to what made the Joker work, and applied that to TMNT, we’d have Turtlemania all over again, in a heart beat.

[Wildcat]

Originally Posted by Xav

What hiatus? I thought the second season just started?

Ok I just checked and the episodes seem to be really out of order in how they air. I check my tv listings every week and have not seen it in awhile.

Also I’m not sure if it’s been totally moved to NickToons. I don’t get that channel.

[Dejablue]

I'm not disillusioned. I mean I have no reason to be. TMNT is a decades old franchise change is inevitable. If there is anything I'm sad about is a lack of fan content for me to enjoy whenever there is a dry spell. Fanfic can only do so much. I want comics and fangames too.

Also...PApagreg is a fan of MaoMao? I am also a fan of MaoMao.

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by TommyT

If they look to what made the Joker work, and applied that to TMNT, we’d have Turtlemania all over again, in a heart beat.

Being cheap to make is what made Joker financial profitable. It's not even really that well liked a film.

Not to be too pedantic but Turtlemania was a huge pop culture phenomenon that touched TV, film, action figures and had tons of merchandise with their likeness on practically everything. An attempt at an arthouse, stylized, topical (but not really) TMNT movie like Joker isn't going to do that.

For good or ill something more MCU styled like the first Avengers is what would probably work for TMNT...or it would but I think they tried that hard with OOTS and failed and probably blotted the copy book for that approach. How you manage to to botch ripping off one of the simplest modern blockbusters I don't know but they did it and it doesn't give me faith they can find another approach.

Originally Posted by Dejablue

I'm not disillusioned. I mean I have no reason to be. TMNT is a decades old franchise change is inevitable. If there is anything I'm sad about is a lack of fan content for me to enjoy whenever there is a dry spell. Fanfic can only do so much. I want comics and fangames too.

Also...PApagreg is a fan of MaoMao? I am also a fan of MaoMao.

We still have IDW (which may not be everyones cup of tea but it's popular among the fanbase) and while I've never been a huge collector of TMNT since I've been an adult there's been great collectibles that are still coming out and not all exclusively based on the current show or the 80s series. There's certainly been worse times to be a fan if not for the future prospects being than iffy.

[PApagreg]

Originally Posted by TommyT

How would you define cal arts? Its low IQ super simplified nonsense. Give me The 80’s Thundercats intro or Ralph Bakshi anyday.

There is nothing to define Cal Arts because defining anything Cal Arts is stupid, by your logic Iron Giant is low IQ simplified nonsense. Also seriously Ralph Bakshi i give him credit for revolutionize adult animation but nobody is going to complainant him for his animation. Also why are you comparing an intro and films to an animated series.

Originally Posted by TommyT

Thing is, when something is done properly, there’s far less complaints. The Mandelorian is a prime example of what happens when quality is a top concern. The Last Jedi is what happens when you try to service a small segment if people only.

Okay how many TMNT properties have been done properly in the last decade isn't it a time to experiment with new stuff also your idea of quality might be different from somebody else.

Originally Posted by TommyT

If they look to what made the Joker work, and applied that to TMNT, we’d have Turtlemania all over again, in a heart beat.

I liked Joker but not everything needs to be Joker, the reason why Joker worked was because the character himself portrayed in numerous and varied interpretations(which you are against) and worked because Batman still had a lot of mature and dark movies under his belt. We need a Dark Knight or Spider-man 2 before we get a Joker.

Originally Posted by Dejablue

Also...PApagreg is a fan of MaoMao? I am also a fan of MaoMao.

Mao Mao is pretty much my favorite kids cartoon right now and has no reason being as good as it is. Also I don't know if you are watching Rise but I found it a good substitute for Mao Mao's hiatus

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Leo656

My thing with laird is/was, you can't claim that you're doing something "for the fans" and then just do a ton of stuff they don't like. He kind of switched gears along the way into making Vol. 4 more of a "personal satisfaction" deal

Are you sure he ever said Vol. 4 was "for the fans"? I remember fans chiming in about that, myself probably included, about "This is a great gift for the fans!" and kind of the general fandom taking it as that to begin with, particularly with it kind of coinciding with the launch of the 2k3 cartoon as well (sort of a... phoenix out of the ashes age, all at Peter's will). But I don't actually recall him saying that.

I've told the story many times about how my local comic dealers were furious about the state of Vol. 4. "With the cartoon out, a Ninja Turtles book should be flying off the shelf, but nobody except you buys the damn thing because it's ugly, it's boring, and it's nothing like the Ninja Turtles people want to see."

I remember my comic dealer saying the same things, if in less detail or with less venom. But basically a general sense of "I point them to Vol. 4 but they don't like it."

He was aware of it. Didn't care. And that's fine, IMHO. I think it's unfortunate, but I don't begrudge him one iota. He had 1000% rights to make the Turtle comic he wanted and there's loads to love about it. F*** the Fred Wolf fans whining about stuff, I get it.

I mean, would I have preferred Kevin Eastman next to him in the room, reining him in and creating more of a balance between the "gritty stylized ninja action" and sci-fi stuff? Sure. But he wasn't there. He sold his rights in 2000, and nobody made him do that. But even having 50% of the creative team who made the only incarnation of TMNT I care about around is infinitely better than having 0% of it.

"Tales" was infinitely better than Vol. 4

Well... there's definitely some super bad Tales V2 issues, way worse than even the worst issue of Vol. 4 by far.

Originally Posted by Galactus

Plus it's all kinda moot whether the established fandom of thirty-somethings like it, the intended audience of kids seem to have turned their noses up at it too.

The kids are the only ones that matter. So many people around here act like there's some kind of hidden TMNT cartoon fandom of people 30 and older that comprise even 35% of the audience-ship of something like "Rise of the TMNT." In reality it's like 0.5% of it, if that. Maybe.

To add to the issues the fandom had with Laird there was a very strong resentment of his (very mild) criticism of his the Fred Wolf series and his reluctance to use it's characters and tropes in new TMNT media. That was something a lot of the fandom was very happy about when he sold it, the idea we were going to get every Fred Wolf character and trope back was appealing to many at the time. (To their credit Nickledeon did not lean to heavy on it straight away.) I'm guessing many of those same fans now know to be careful what they wish for.

Yep, and I've been saying that since 2009. And get ready for 20 more new origins for Bebop and Rocksteady, because that's about all that's coming.

Originally Posted by Wildcat

Ok I just checked and the episodes seem to be really out of order in how they air.

If they don't even care enough about the show to bother putting them in order so they can be understood as a cohesive story, why should you care about it or treat it as something that should be taken seriously? Or anyone? Like, outside of the target audience of 4 year-olds?

[Wildcat]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

If they don't even care enough about the show to bother putting them in order so they can be understood as a cohesive story, why should you care about it or treat it as something that should be taken seriously? Or anyone? Like, outside of the target audience of 4 year-olds?

The ones that actually adhere to the main storyline of reconstructing Shredder and whenever they meet up with Baron Draxum ARE (from what I can tell) in order. I guess they’re just farther apart than necessary.

The side adventures and filler stuff is out of order.

Plus it’s fine you don’t like this series but you know it’s target audience is not 4 year olds. It’s just comedic/action based.

[Diorm]

Hey Andrew I've been wondering. To what extent do you consider some of the stuff canon in Volume 4? I mean, all of it is Canon of course because it's made by Laird, but what are the stuff you prefer not to consider when you write your own books?

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Diorm

Hey Andrew I've been wondering. To what extent do you consider some of the stuff canon in Volume 4? I mean, all of it is Canon of course because it's made by Laird, but what are the stuff you prefer not to consider when you write your own books?

No stuff. I definitely consider all of it canon and certainly wouldn't downplay or try to disregard any aspect of it. Or try and be like, "But what REALLY happened is this ____."

Er, I guess the only thing I'd be iffy about is the Battle Nexus Splinter being the "real" Splinter. We may never know what he was planning with that but my suspicion is that "something is awry" there.

[oldmanwinters]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Er, I guess the only thing I'd be iffy about is the Battle Nexus Splinter being the "real" Splinter. We may never know what he was planning with that but my suspicion is that "something is awry" there.

That and "April is a drawing brought to life because Dad used permanent ink" were the two things that made us ask "Where is Pete going with all this?"

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by oldmanwinters

That and "April is a drawing brought to life because Dad used permanent ink" were the two things that made us ask "Where is Pete going with all this?"

I definitely get big into that in "Origin." And what's going on in her head after stuff like #22.

[Krutch]

Turtles Forever was the curtain call for me. Once the closing credits began to roll I felt a book closing on that part of my life, and I don't think I've ever really cared about anything TMNT related that wasn't a board game or statue since. That being said, I'm not of the belief there will never be a Turtles show/movie again that could recharge my interest. I think they tested the waters with Batman vs TMNT for a slightly more mature audience, which was generally well received, so that's promising. Which is not saying TMNT needs to be mature for me to enjoy it, but I think between Batman/TMNT and RotTMNT, it shows they're at least willing to try new things, which is comforting. I mean, it'd be pretty damn easy for them to just remake the OT for modern audiences with cheap animation. So let them keep rolling the dice. Even the worst of the bunch I can find something to like about it.