Sonic the Hedgehog

[TMNT_Guy]

Originally Posted by Shark_Blade

Yeah I much prefer physical release too. But tbh the price is waay, waaayy cheaper than standard new games so that's a plus. Still, I prefer to have the options.

I agree, there should be options. But in my opinion if a game is going to be released digitally it should come DRM free. It doesn't stop pirates and it just inconveniences paying customers.

Originally Posted by Takashi Iizuka

“From the developer standpoint, every Sonic game that we’re making is taking new steps and advances, furthering the game in a new direction, and that’s dictated where the Sonic series has been going,” Iizuka said. “If we can get the gameplay to evolve and get to a place where Adventure 3 makes sense, then you might see an Adventure 3 come out,” said Iizuka. “But we don’t want to take the entire series back to where it was just make people happy. We want to advance the idea of what a Sonic game is.”

Then how did we get Sonic Mania?...and why are Sonic Team abandoning the newest play style from Lost World in Sonic Forces in favor of a play style introduced 9 years ago? I could understand if he simply doesn't feel that game play style has anything new to offer, but his reasoning doesn't match his actions.

As for a Sonic Adventure 3...I don't know. If you asked me if I wanted a Sonic Adventure 3 a few months ago I would have said yes, but after playing Sonic Mania it really made me rethink what I want out of the series. I still like the Adventure games, Sonic Adventure 2 Battle was my first Sonic game after all, not because they were expertly designed or anything...but because in my opinion they are the only 3D Sonic games that felt good to control Sonic in. Ever since Sonic Heroes Sonic controls like he's walking on ice or those moving walkways you see at airports. I just want more freedom, more control, more momentum based physics in a Sonic Game. Fan have shown that it can work with ShayMays brilliant outline for a Sonic game and proof of concepts like Sonic Utopia and Green Hill Paradise Act 2 prove that it can work.

I don't know...every time Sega reveals something new about Sonic Forces anymore...I immediately re watch that Sonic Utopia trailer and sigh.

[dl316bh]

Honestly didn't expect to see Shadow playable again. Not sure why they're doing it, given they've let the character lie for a decade now, but eh.

Originally Posted by LeotheLateBloomer

I don't necessarily need an Adventure 3 but I'd be more than content with a return to that gameplay style.

I wouldn't. I don't even understand the desire to go back in time to those days. They were fine at the time and I still like Adventure 1, warts and all, but they were glitchy, buggy messes with camera and control issues out the ass. If they made an Adventure 3, they'd have to do so much fixing it would feel different anyway. As for the gameplay, I'm not sure what people even think is missing that those games had. The different characters? That I could understand. Otherwise I think it's mainly nostalgia.

I mean, you bring up "comfortable controls" in the later post and... I dunno man, the controls seemed to just do whatever the hell they wanted sometimes.

...and why are Sonic Team abandoning the newest play style from Lost World in Sonic Forces in favor of a play style introduced 9 years ago?

Because Lost World only got okay reviews and Big Red Buttons Sonic Boom game got people making Sonic jokes and trashing the series again after a couple years of that dying down a bit, so they got paranoid and went back to what worked and helped put some shine back on the franchise.

It's a shame, because while Lost World wasn't a perfect game by any means, a sequel in that playstyle could easily have focused on what worked and refined it.

or worse, rush off a cliff, whereas with the Adventure games (at least SA2, which Heroes did as well) the character will stop himself if he/she hits an edge.

I don't remember any of that at all. Most of what I remember of Adventure 2 consists of getting pissed off at the last third of the game because the levels were mainly bottomless pits, half the time with nothing but rails over them you had to grind on. I went sailing off into nothing a couple times in the action stages too.

Fan have shown that it can work with ShayMays brilliant outline for a Sonic game and proof of concepts like Sonic Utopia and Green Hill Paradise Act 2 prove that it can work.

I've seen those before. Very SRB2, but without the Doom ass graphics and limitations. Super impressive, especially for hobby stuff.

But they also illustrate, even just through watching, why that sort of open plains gameplay has issues to work out and isn't that simple. Sonic's generally agreed to require some sense of speed, so to compensate, the levels need to be bigger. For the more directed main games, that's not a huge issue, just make them longer. This sort of thing, you expand outward and those demos illustrate the problem with that. There's nothing going on. Enemies are sparse, there aren't any gimmicks and the usual stuff like loops seem goofily out of place because there's no reason to go through them, since you can just go around or avoid them. The enemies and the gimmicks you can say would be worked out by adding more, but then you're just filling large spaces with things, with no guarantee you can keep it interesting. You can mix it up, but depending on the stage you'd need a lot of unique stuff to keep areas that wide interesting. Eventually, just running around nothing areas is going to get boring.

It's cool as a sandbox and a demo, but a full game of stuff like that probably isn't going to work without scaling back or putting gargantuan effort into populating entire open stages like that with interesting things to do. Sonic Robo Blast 2 is a bit more closed in and directed and even that has issues like that sometimes.

[The Deadman]

Originally Posted by Papenbrook

They're desperate ...



They're really desperate...

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...96/201/ed3.jpg

Im excited to finally be able to play as Shadow on the 2D levels.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

Originally Posted by dl316bh

They were fine at the time and I still like Adventure 1, warts and all, but they were glitchy, buggy messes with camera and control issues out the ass.

Then why not improve on those problems? You can create sequels and improve on the flaws of the last games. There's still potential for that style of gameplay, imo.

Originally Posted by dl316bh

If they made an Adventure 3, they'd have to do so much fixing it would feel different anyway.

The issue isn't that Sega isn't making an Adventure 3, it's that Sonic Team is ignoring the good aspects of what many have liked of those games. While flawed, they have some unique choices to them that even the modern games don't have.

Originally Posted by dl316bh

I mean, you bring up "comfortable controls" in the later post and... I dunno man, the controls seemed to just do whatever the hell they wanted sometimes.

Let me ask this, do you ever feel like you have more control over Sonic in a modern game compared to SA game?

Originally Posted by dl316bh

I don't remember any of that at all. Most of what I remember of Adventure 2 consists of getting pissed off at the last third of the game because the levels were mainly bottomless pits, half the time with nothing but rails over them you had to grind on. I went sailing off into nothing a couple times in the action stages too.

It's not impossible to fall off a platform but what I'm saying is that when hitting an edge, the character will stop him/herself from falling off in an animation. And while I agree on stages like Final Rush, that's not exactly what I'm talking about.

[dl316bh]

Originally Posted by LeotheLateBloomer

Then why not improve on those problems? You can create sequels and improve on the flaws of the last games. There's still potential for that style of gameplay, imo.

Like I said, they'd have to improve the controls drastically as well as the camera issues, after a certain point it's not going to feel the same. You can make a good point that they should open up more control of Sonic, but going back to Adventure isn't what I'd call a solution. If they're going to refine a playstyle, I'd rather they return to the Lost World style and refine that than dredge something up from the days of early 3D gaming and try to make it work in the modern day.

The issue isn't that Sega isn't making an Adventure 3, it's that Sonic Team is ignoring the good aspects of what many have liked of those games. While flawed, they have some unique choices to them that even the modern games don't have.

They had more characters and playstyles, which is something I wouldn't mind returning (if, you know, they could do it competently, which is always a crapshoot). Otherwise, I'm not sure what was lost that was worth keeping. The action stages were just as directed, just slower and maybe a bit more complex. You had a bit more control over directly turning Sonic, but even that didn't work great. Wall running in Adventure is a nightmare. If you could even keep the necessary speed up, sometimes he turned too fast and you turned into the other direction, or he detached from the wall and plummeted. The volcano level of Adventure is infuriating because of that.

Let me ask this, do you ever feel like you have more control over Sonic in a modern game compared to SA game?

Yes, I do. I've never had an occasion where I hold forward and when the camera angle changes Sonic immediately turns right into a wall because question mark. Sometimes, playing Adventure is like wrestling the controls.

It's not impossible to fall off a platform but what I'm saying is that when hitting an edge, the character will stop him/herself from falling off in an animation. And while I agree on stages like Final Rush, that's not exactly what I'm talking about.

I genuinely don't remember what you're talking about. I remember fences and the like that might keep you from going over unless you jump, but I also remember plenty of occasions where nothing stopped me from sailing off to my death. If anything, those games could have used more invisible walls. Green Forest sometimes had me sailing off into the abyss because I ran on the side and turned too much, breaking contact with the floor, going through the missing section of root/branch and off into the wild green yonder. It's been a long time since I've played Adventure 2, but I still remember stuff like that clearly.

[TMNT_Guy]

Originally Posted by dl316bh

But they also illustrate, even just through watching, why that sort of open plains gameplay has issues to work out and isn't that simple. Sonic's generally agreed to require some sense of speed, so to compensate, the levels need to be bigger. For the more directed main games, that's not a huge issue, just make them longer. This sort of thing, you expand outward and those demos illustrate the problem with that. There's nothing going on. Enemies are sparse, there aren't any gimmicks and the usual stuff like loops seem goofily out of place because there's no reason to go through them, since you can just go around or avoid them. The enemies and the gimmicks you can say would be worked out by adding more, but then you're just filling large spaces with things, with no guarantee you can keep it interesting. You can mix it up, but depending on the stage you'd need a lot of unique stuff to keep areas that wide interesting. Eventually, just running around nothing areas is going to get boring.

The thing about those proof of concepts is just that: they're proof of concepts. The level design isn't important because it's about demonstrating how Sonic can control in 3D space. Naturally if a proper level was made it would be much less wide open. Even Sonic Utopia's creator acknowledged this in the comments.

"The level is too open/flat/there's nothing to do."
This is essentially a tech demo, and the level is experimental. Proper levels will have much better design and the actual game will have objectives.

For the record, this is NOT an "open world" Sonic game. I have never used those words to describe it. Everyone else is calling it that. Open world implies any direction is a valid goal wherever you are with different objectives. Even this demo has a single end goal, the level just happens to be large. The full game will have roomy, explorable levels, but it will still primarily be start to finish gameplay like the classic 2d Sonic games. And while this is my concept and I'm leading the project, it is far from "made by one guy". This demo is largely the work of two, and the full game will have more involved in the effort.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

Originally Posted by dl316bh

Like I said, they'd have to improve the controls drastically as well as the camera issues, after a certain point it's not going to feel the same. You can make a good point that they should open up more control of Sonic, but going back to Adventure isn't what I'd call a solution. If they're going to refine a playstyle, I'd rather they return to the Lost World style and refine that than dredge something up from the days of early 3D gaming and try to make it work in the modern day.

Sadly, they're not going to go back to Lost World because of the mixed reception.

I never had a problem with any of the issues you had with SA1 (SA2 depends) but not everybody's gonna feel the same. *shrugs*

[dl316bh]

Originally Posted by TMNT_Guy

The thing about those proof of concepts is just that: they're proof of concepts. The level design isn't important because it's about demonstrating how Sonic can control in 3D space. Naturally if a proper level was made it would be much less wide open. Even Sonic Utopia's creator acknowledged this in the comments.

You know what? Fair enough. We'll see how it goes, then. If this is just the proof of concept - and I didn't realize that was all it was - they we don't know what their eye for level design is, and that's important, especially in making this work. But we're not likely to see anything concrete for a few years, assuming it doesn't fall apart. Fan games take a long time in general, I notice, unless you're the superhuman guy who made Before the Sequel, After the Sequel and Chrono Adventure. 3D fan games take even more effort and time, which is why we've never seen one get super far, aside from SBR2.

Originally Posted by LeotheLateBloomer

Sadly, they're not going to go back to Lost World because of the mixed reception.

I never had a problem with any of the issues you had with SA1 (SA2 depends) but not everybody's gonna feel the same. *shrugs*

Sigh. Yeah. We might not. It's a shame. Who knows, though. Maybe they'll return to it at some point, but there's a good chance they won't, too.

True enough. I think of that one sequence in the volcano when I illustrate that issue. There's a big pool of lava and to get across it, you have to do a wall run. But, as I recall, it's a strip of wall you can run on and if you hit the edges, it breaks the run and you just drop into the lava. I always remember getting annoyed at that, because it was pretty easy to hit the edges.

I think the most annoying glitch I ever had was Emerald Coast, where, sometimes, without warning, I'd go into that huge loop that rockets you over the water to the next section and just clip through the floor to my death. I had one playthrough where that happened three times before I got through. I never understood why it happened or what caused it.

I wonder if porting ever caused any issues with the re-releases. I never played it on the Dreamcast, so I don't know if the original version had all the same bugs or technical glitches.

... The way I complain about it, you'd think I hated Sonic Adventure rather than like it. Honestly, though, I do. It's still fun when it works right.

[TMNT_Guy]

Originally Posted by dl316bh

I wonder if porting ever caused any issues with the re-releases. I never played it on the Dreamcast, so I don't know if the original version had all the same bugs or technical glitches.

Yeah, it's well known by Adventure fans that every port of Sonic Adventure "DX" suffers from many glitches, especially collision issues, that weren't in the original. Even it's unique lighting engine has been removed starting with the Gamecube release resulting in much of the color and atmosphere of the game being lost and all the character models looking like shiny action figures. Thankfully there are mods available that fix most of these glitches and mods that port the original lighting engine and character models so it looks and plays just like the Dreamcast original. Just look at this invisible wall that was seemingly removed for no reason.


Sonic Adventure 2 for the PC/Xbox/Playstation also has much of the same problems especially in the audio department. Sonic Adventure 2 Battle on the Gamecube is acually a solid port and in many ways plays better then the Dreamcast version. However the lighting engine is also absent on all ports of SA2 and this results in a lot of visual effects being missing. Sadly there aren't any awesome mods yet to fix these problems yet.

Compare this cutscene from the Dreamcast version with the PC port.
Dreamcast:https://youtu.be/mJcClMWtFp0?t=7m35s
PC: https://youtu.be/ggYE5V9Vum0?t=5m30s

Yeah...Sega hasn't treated these games very well have they?

[Papenbrook]

It's just ... MASSIVE cringe, man ...

[TurtleTitan97]

The only thing that's "massive cringe" is your hate obsession over a Sonic video game.

It exists. Grow up and get over it.

[dl316bh]

You really oversold that. "Massive cringe" made me expect something so bad I'd actively want to look away. At most, I got something a little cheesy, with a buttrock theme song that isn't exactly among the series best, but is otherwise inoffensive.

I'VE BEEN HAD!

Yeah...Sega hasn't treated these games very well have they?

Did Sonic Team actually handle the ports themselves, or were they handed off? A lot of later ports or re-releases are done by completely different teams, unless they're HD overhauls or remakes. Might explain all the changes. Otherwise I'm not sure what the changes were for. Maybe difficulty porting that stuff over to different architecture at the time Adventure DX and 2 Battle were done? Which would perpetuate because, being the versions with more stuff added, it would be the one they go to for later re-releases.

[TMNT_Guy]

Originally Posted by dl316bh

Did Sonic Team actually handle the ports themselves, or were they handed off? A lot of later ports or re-releases are done by completely different teams, unless they're HD overhauls or remakes. Might explain all the changes. Otherwise I'm not sure what the changes were for. Maybe difficulty porting that stuff over to different architecture at the time Adventure DX and 2 Battle were done? Which would perpetuate because, being the versions with more stuff added, it would be the one they go to for later re-releases.

I don't know. The credits for both ports are nearly identical to the originals with the only noteworthy difference being that Naoto Ohshima, Sonic's creator, is taken out of the credits for Sonic Adventure DX. It would be the last Sonic game he ever worked on as he left Sega shortly after and while he didn't have much to do with the game, he's credited for things like "CG Movie Producer" or "Opening Movie Editor", it is confusing and sad to see the man's name taken out when his work is still in the game.

Originally Posted by dl316bh

You really oversold that. "Massive cringe" made me expect something so bad I'd actively want to look away. At most, I got something a little cheesy, with a buttrock theme song that isn't exactly among the series best, but is otherwise inoffensive.

I'VE BEEN HAD!

Now if you want some real Sonic cringe...go look up who's sponsoring Sonic Forces in Japan. I mean no disrespect to the restaurant's owners or the people that work there...but none the less there is a stigma associated with it and I don't think I've ever been embarrassed to like Sonic until now.

[Papenbrook]

Originally Posted by TMNT_Guy

Now if you want some real Sonic cringe...go look up who's sponsoring Sonic Forces in Japan. I mean no disrespect to the restaurant's owners or the people that work there...but none the less there is a stigma associated with it and I don't think I've ever been embarrassed to like Sonic until now.

Aw, man. You beat me to it.

But yeah, Sonic's teaming up with Hooters.



https://kotaku.com/sonic-the-hedgeho...hoo-1818685633

[The Deadman]

Originally Posted by TurtleTitan97

The only thing that's "massive cringe" is your hate obsession over a Sonic video game.

It exists. Grow up and get over it.

A game she probably had no interest in playing when it was first announced at that.

[Papenbrook]

Originally Posted by TurtleTitan97

The only thing that's "massive cringe" is your hate obsession over a Sonic video game.

That may be true, but that's the only thing that I can do at this point.

It's clear that Sega isn't listening, so the least that I can do is express myself in a semi-creative fashion.

It exists. Grow up and get over it.

~ No, not by the hair of my chinny chin chin. ~

Originally Posted by The Deadman

A game she probably had no interest in playing when it was first announced at that.

Wrong.

I was, at one point, intrigued with Sonic Forces. The teaser trailer looked quite promising. Sonic Mania was looking good. So, I was expecting an extremely exceptional Sonic game.

However, after viewing lackluster gameplay, terrible character designs, horrible stage designs, and a disappointing story trailer, I was done.

Maybe it's just me, but I smell another Sonic Boom-like disaster at Sega's doorsteps.

[TurtleTitan97]

Originally Posted by Papenbrook

That may be true, but that's the only thing that I can do at this point.

It's clear that Sega isn't listening, so the least that I can do is express myself in a semi-creative fashion.

Then how about "expressing it" somewhere else? It's bad enough when CyberCubed complains about something over and over again in various threads, you doing the same thing over a video game about a cartoon blue rodent makes you look just as annoying and immature. And that's embarrassing for someone saying they'll turn 20.

At this point I hope Forces does extremely well just to make your whining look all the more ridiculous.

[dl316bh]

Originally Posted by TMNT_Guy

Now if you want some real Sonic cringe...go look up who's sponsoring Sonic Forces in Japan. I mean no disrespect to the restaurant's owners or the people that work there...but none the less there is a stigma associated with it and I don't think I've ever been embarrassed to like Sonic until now.

I didn't even know they had Hooters in Japan.



That's some good cringe. But it's also only Japan and no one is going to remember once the game has come and gone.

GOTTA GO FAST (to look at boobs apparently)

Maybe it's just me, but I smell another Sonic Boom-like disaster at Sega's doorsteps.

Eh, I think that's an exaggeration. "Just okay" is probably what we're looking at here. Which is not what anyone wants from this, but they panicked after BRB's Rise of Lyric turned out to be a disaster and Lost World only got decent reception so they went back to something safe rather than interesting.

[Turo602]

Originally Posted by TurtleTitan97

Then how about "expressing it" somewhere else? It's bad enough when CyberCubed complains about something over and over again in various threads, you doing the same thing over a video game about a cartoon blue rodent makes you look just as annoying and immature. And that's embarrassing for someone saying they'll turn 20.

At this point I hope Forces does extremely well just to make your whining look all the more ridiculous.

Honestly, it looks to me like you need to grow up. This is a Sonic thread, where the hell else is one supposed to express their opinion on Sonic? You act like Papenbrook has been putting people down and contributing nothing to the thread. She's actually been posting lots of information on Sonic Forces, but no, you're going to b*tch about some inoffensive comments instead. Blue rodent... this is a TMNT forum for f*ck's sake.

[TurtleTitan97]

Originally Posted by Turo602

She's actually been posting lots of information on Sonic Forces

She's also been whining non-stop over the most ridiculous minor details about this game making it seem like it's the next Sonic 06. Sonic Forces looks like it could at least be on par with Generations, imo.

Forgive me if I can't help but find it bizarre someone is focusing so much unhealthy obsession over a video game that isn't even out yet when there's still a 50/50 chance it could be good.