The 2007 movie is a mess, a good one.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by sgtfbomb

The apartment fight was trimmed down. Some of this can be found in the original UK cut, which includes an extra bit where April pulls the rug out from a foot soldier's feet.

Oh wow, that would make the fight so much darker and Mirage-like. Like the rest of the movie, starring Danny, Dude Mikey, and Darth Shredder's Halfway House of Troubled Youths.

Block-block-kick, block-block-kick, block-block-kick.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Oh wow, that would make the fight so much darker and Mirage-like. Like the rest of the movie, starring Danny, Dude Mikey, and Darth Shredder's Halfway House of Troubled Youths.

Block-block-kick, block-block-kick, block-block-kick.

I get your point, but I think you are actually looking for the Image comics adaption.

Eastman and Laird's TMNT was nothing if not goofy and irreverent at times. Alongside the stories that were dark, gritty, and somber. Like, I'm pretty sure you take the TMNT more seriously than the creators themselves do. And that's not to say that TMNT isn't and can't be serious. "City at War" is peak TMNT for me and I can't think of a single joke cracked in that whole story. But Mirage TMNT has always been more than just that.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

I get your point, but I think you are actually looking for the Image comics adaption.

No, I just want fight scenes that resemble the comics they're trying to adapt. Not slapstick Three Stooges skits with an occasional kick.

I'm probably being way unfair to the movie. It's head and shoulders the best thing TMNT to ever come out on the screen, and with anything else, it's not even close. I'm just saying let's not pretend it's this 1:1 adaptation of Mirage. It's like... 65%, and that's being really generous. Am I being a curmudgeon for wanting that last 35%, in spite of the pretty OK 65%? Maybe. Over the years I just take annoyance with folks treating TMNT 1990 like it's synonymous with "Mirage: The Movie."

Eastman and Laird's TMNT was nothing if not goofy and irreverent at times. Alongside the stories that were dark, gritty, and somber. Like, I'm pretty sure you take the TMNT more seriously than the creators themselves do. And that's not to say that TMNT isn't and can't be serious. "City at War" is peak TMNT for me and I can't think of a single joke cracked in that whole story. But Mirage TMNT has always been more than just that.

Yeah, I've read an issue or two of Mirage.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

No, I just want fight scenes that resemble the comics they're trying to adapt. Not slapstick Three Stooges skits with an occasional kick.

I'm probably being way unfair to the movie. It's head and shoulders the best thing TMNT to ever come out on the screen, and with anything else, it's not even close. I'm just saying let's not pretend it's this 1:1 adaptation of Mirage. It's like... 65%, and that's being really generous. Am I being a curmudgeon for wanting that last 35%, in spite of the pretty OK 65%? Maybe. Over the years I just take annoyance with folks treating TMNT 1990 like it's synonymous with "Mirage: The Movie."



Yeah, I've read an issue or two of Mirage.

You totally have. I just mean to say that you seem to paint a picture that goofy and irreverent TMNT is somehow anti-Mirage, and I don't think that is the case.

I'd give it more than a 65% "Mirage score".
One great point you brought up in the past was that these movie turtles weren't raised to be assassins and that actually twisted my opinion slightly. I think that right there is the biggest diff between Mirage and the film, but it's extremely faithful elsewhere, from many of the story beats to the visual identity of the film.

I agree that the fights would be cooler and closer to Mirage if they were allowed to have more intensity.

[Andrew NDB]

I don't care if they go to outer space, encounter a ghost, sit there for ten minutes making fun of each other. I just care that when actual fighting starts, the fighting is taken absolutely seriously beyond a bit of wisecracks (it's to be expected) and the like. It should be "ninja-like." And they should be using their weapons for something other than blocking (I know, Leo got that oooone scratch in on the Shredder, but that's it). And that doesn't even necessitate an R-rating.

Yes, the Mirage TMNT being raised to kill Saki vs. the 1990 TMNT not being raised that way is probably the biggest point of divergence. It's a fairly fundamental change, though, when you think about it.

[Peter Palmer]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Over the years I just take annoyance with folks treating TMNT 1990 like it's synonymous with "Mirage: The Movie."

To be fair, I don't think I've ever seen someone make the case that the 1990 movie is a direct adaptation of the Mirage comics. You may be making that leap in your head. The 1990 movie is certainly the darkest of the movies released so far, thus making it inherently closer to the dark tone of the original comics than any other incarnation.

The movie adapts some beats from the original comics, but that's about as close as it gets. It's clearly meant to be a hybrid of the original comics and the 80's cartoon, which makes sense given that those were the only sources to draw from at the time. I'm sure the creators wanted to adapt their own comics but had to lean heavily on the 80's cartoon elements to make it recognizable to the masses.

I just don't see anyone making the case that the 1990 movie is Mirage: The Movie.

As an aside, I recently picked up a complete set of the Image comics and I was flipping through them. You got your fan letters published quite a bit! That's pretty cool. I saw "Andy Modeen" a number of times and I thought that it had to be the same guy, right? Then I saw a picture drawn by Andy with a turtle holding the severed head of his defeated foe and I was like "Yep, that's him!". How many issues are you in?

[AquaParade]

Good points, but I’ll also be fair and say that I, myself, have sort of implied the film heavily captures the feel of Mirage. Especially when you look at Mirage as a whole, not just stories like “RTNY”, “CaW”, etc..

And it is worth noting that Kevin Eastman feels the same. Please don’t take that as me shielding my opinion by using Kevin, but it’s a relevant point. And if anyone is tempted to criticize Kevin’s “cheerleading”, which he is known for, keep in mind, that he is typically pretty honest afterwards. You don’t see Kevin talking up the Platinum Dunes films these days - quite the opposite.

But hey, at this point we’ve all read the books and we are all versed well enough in the TMNT to make our own call on that. I feel like the look and feel of Mirage is translated quite strongly, but if y’all see much more of the cartoon in there, I respect that too.

Again, I don’t think it’s a perfect adaption but pretty damn close.

Edit: Accidentally quoted myself - dangerously close to talking to myself. The quarantine is setting in.

[Peter Palmer]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

Good points, but I’ll also be fair and say that I, myself, have sort of implied the film heavily captures the feel of Mirage. Especially when you look at Mirage as a whole, not just stories like “RTNY”, “CaW”, etc..

And it is worth noting that Kevin Eastman feels the same. Please don’t take that as me shielding my opinion by using Kevin, but it’s a relevant point. And if anyone is tempted to criticize Kevin’s “cheerleading”, which he is known for, keep in mind, that he is typically pretty honest afterwards. You don’t see Kevin talking up the Platinum Dunes films these days - quite the opposite.

But hey, at this point we’ve all read the books and we are all versed well enough in the TMNT to make our own call on that. I feel like the look and feel of Mirage is translated quite strongly, but if y’all see much more of the cartoon in there, I respect that too.

Again, I don’t think it’s a perfect adaption but pretty damn close.

Edit: Accidentally quoted myself - dangerously close to talking to myself. The quarantine is setting in.

I think you're supporting my point without realizing it.

Of course the film attempts to capture the feel of Mirage comics. It loosely adapts quite a few issues: Raph and Leo one-shots, #10 (the fight at April's), the Northampton arc, the Return to New York arc. While there are some obvious differences, the themes are very similar between the two. And of course Kevin would admit that the movie tries to capture the feeling of Mirage. Why wouldn't he? It's a fact that would be pretty hard to refute.

However, it's hard to ignore the influence of the 80's cartoon to make the movie appealing to the country at large. Colored bandannas. Surfer talk. Bloodless violence. I'm sure Kevin would also agree that there is a fair amount of influence from the 80's cartoon in the movie.

Someone earlier mentioned that the split may have been around 65% Mirage, 35% 80's cartoon. That's probably pretty close.

All I'm saying is I don't think anyone is making the case that the movie is 100% Mirage as Andrew suggests. That doesn't seem to be what you're suggesting. It's definitely not what I'm suggesting. Influenced by the comics? Absolutely! 1:1 adaptation? Not a chance.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Peter Palmer

To be fair, I don't think I've ever seen someone make the case that the 1990 movie is a direct adaptation of the Mirage comics. You may be making that leap in your head.

http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=59264

http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=62286

http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=24834

http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=19213

"looks like it was ripped right off the pages," etc., etc..

As an aside, I recently picked up a complete set of the Image comics and I was flipping through them. You got your fan letters published quite a bit! That's pretty cool. I saw "Andy Modeen" a number of times and I thought that it had to be the same guy, right? Then I saw a picture drawn by Andy with a turtle holding the severed head of his defeated foe and I was like "Yep, that's him!". How many issues are you in?

Hah. More than not, I think. And 1 issue of Vol. 4. I really tried to get a letter printed for TMNTA (Archie) but they never would. Pretty sure I sent them art, too (no, it wasn't involving severed heads).

Originally Posted by AquaParade

Good points, but I’ll also be fair and say that I, myself, have sort of implied the film heavily captures the feel of Mirage. Especially when you look at Mirage as a whole, not just stories like “RTNY”, “CaW”, etc..

And it is worth noting that Kevin Eastman feels the same. Please don’t take that as me shielding my opinion by using Kevin, but it’s a relevant point. And if anyone is tempted to criticize Kevin’s “cheerleading”, which he is known for, keep in mind, that he is typically pretty honest afterwards. You don’t see Kevin talking up the Platinum Dunes films these days - quite the opposite.

Citing Kevin in this regard isn't much of anything, for the very reason you mention. It's also worth noting that he once said the Platinum Dunes movies possess "the darker edge of the comic books."

http://www.thenational.ae/blogs/scen...-kevin-eastman

[d_osborn]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

"looks like it was ripped right off the pages," etc., etc..

It was ripped straight from the pages of the Mirage comics. Barron used the issues as storyboards in early development.

Just because the fight choreography was inhibited by the creature FX/budget/fight directorial experience or the TMNT's sole purpose of killing Shredder was changed, doesn't negate the fact that the Mirage comics were a heavy source of visual/tonal inspiration for the film.

Loosely paraphrasing Laird, it's a miracle it turned out as good as it did (and that miracle is surnamed Barron). The film simply wouldn't have been financed if it were developed as tonally dark as the early issues. It barely got made as it was.

No movie, much smaller Turtlemania, much smaller legacy, much smaller fanbase, much smaller crowd funding for fan comics.

[Peter Palmer]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=59264

http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=62286

http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=24834

http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=19213

"looks like it was ripped right off the pages," etc., etc..



Hah. More than not, I think. And 1 issue of Vol. 4. I really tried to get a letter printed for TMNTA (Archie) but they never would. Pretty sure I sent them art, too (no, it wasn't involving severed heads).



Citing Kevin in this regard isn't much of anything, for the very reason you mention. It's also worth noting that he once said the Platinum Dunes movies possess "the darker edge of the comic books."

http://www.thenational.ae/blogs/scen...-kevin-eastman

Fans sure have a proclivity for exaggeration, don't they? Alright, you've proven your case. It's not all in your head.

Though, I would find it hard to believe that any of these people would say with a straight face that the 1990 movie was a 100% faithful adaptation of the comics.

Factually speaking, it isn't. But you're right, some of those posts would have you believe that the movie is a strict adaptation of the comics, which just isn't true.

[D Piddy 1982]

Just to add to the other 2007 movie comments.

I've said on other threads and I'll say it again - I think this movie stinks. I watched it once on DVD and have zero desire to ever watch it again. The plot from what I can remember was boring. Possibly even confusing? They brought in new characters (enemies) that I didn't care for. I also think the Turtles themselves, design wise is just bad. Hardly any differences between the 4 brothers. I'm not calling for RiseOTTMNT differences but at least in the 1990 film (for example) if someone showed me a B&W pic of one of the Turtles I could tell you exactly which one it is. I realise you would have the same issue with FW Turtles - they essentially are all the same design.

Anyhow, just to add to the discussion, this movie gets a big fat thumbs down from me. In someways I am surprised that so many on here like it, but it is refreshing to see there are also some on here that also look back on this negatively. Some people speak as if this is literally the second coming.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Peter Palmer

I think you're supporting my point without realizing it.

Sort of. I actually do believe the 1990 film is closer to like 85% Mirage in spirit, than 65%, so I wanted to point out that Andrew's opinion might be in "opposition" to people who think like me.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Citing Kevin in this regard isn't much of anything, for the very reason you mention. It's also worth noting that he once said the Platinum Dunes movies possess "the darker edge of the comic books."
http://www.thenational.ae/blogs/scen...-kevin-eastman

I think it's worth a lot, given he created the thing. Not to diminish personal subjective opinion. But if the creator says "yeah, this is what I was going for", you have to put some stock in that.

Again, Kevin is pretty honest in retrospect.
I mean, the PD films did try to capture "the darker edge of the comics books" in some ways. Obviously the film was a mess and complete disaster, but at times they were going for a mature edge with the 2014 film. Alas, they ended up just slapping all the disparate elements they had together into a gnarly gross pizza.
Claiming that PD went for a darker edge with the first film is a harmless thing to say and doesn't reflect the quality of the movie. Probably Kevin's way of avoiding having to say something bad about the film, but you can hear him voice his negative opinion on those movies in any recent interview.

To wrap it up, I think there is clear evidence that you can depend on Kevin to be honest...eventually. I trust he isn't blowing smoke up anyone's ass by praising TMNT 1990 as representative of his vision, thirty years later. Especially when he is openly criticizing the PD films in interviews now.

Originally Posted by d_osborn

It was ripped straight from the pages of the Mirage comics. Barron used the issues as storyboards in early development.

Yup.

And it's another opportunity to praise just how well the low-budget visuals of the film represented the indie, homemade feel of the Mirage comic. Maybe it was just coincidence, or maybe it's just the natural order of things for a low-fi comic to receive a low-fi movie adaption, but when people talk about comic books "truly being brought to life on screen", I think of this movie, alongside Into the Spider-Verse or Infinity War.

[ABrown]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

Sort of. I actually do believe the 1990 film is closer to like 85% Mirage in spirit, than 65%, so I wanted to point out that Andrew's opinion might be in "opposition" to people who think like me.

I agree. I mean I think even 80/20% would would be more accurate than 65/35.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by ABrown

I agree. I mean I think even 80/20% would would be more accurate than 65/35.

The turtles occasionally goofing around and joking isn't exclusive to the cartoon, but it seems like that aspect gets played up heavily as being cartoon-influenced.
I sort of get it - they are goofier in the cartoon than in Mirage, so it's easy to attribute that to the toon. That doesn't go very far with me, however. I can think of plenty of Mirage comics, especially the short stories, where the turtles are acting aloof, calling each other silly nicknames (chuckle-head is a personal fav of mine), etc.

I definitely see the colored masks and the pizza as holdovers from the cartoon, April being a reporter - sure. And it pulls a few punches. I don't want to downplay that, but it really isn't much in comparison to how many faithful elements there are.

[Peter Palmer]

Originally Posted by D Piddy 1982

I also think the Turtles themselves, design wise is just bad. Hardly any differences between the 4 brothers. I'm not calling for RiseOTTMNT differences but at least in the 1990 film (for example) if someone showed me a B&W pic of one of the Turtles I could tell you exactly which one it is. I realise you would have the same issue with FW Turtles - they essentially are all the same design.

I disagree with this. I thought they did a nice job actually giving them different body types and I really think they fit the turtles.

Raph has a broader body and has a much more pronounced brow. Seems like he's had a lot more strength training than his brothers.

Leo looks like he's very athletic. He looks like a solid balance between strength and flexibility. He also has very focused eyes and a wider-set mouth than his brothers.

Don seemed to be the most slender with the least definition to his physique, likely because he probably only kept up with the bare minimum of his physical training, throwing himself into his job and his research.

Mikey looks athletic, probably keeping up with some ninja training but a lot more with his extreme sewer skateboarding. He's the only turtle with blue eyes in this one and his eyes are much bigger/rounder than his brothers.

Was this the first animated version of the TMNT that had different body types? Either way, I really enjoyed the subtle differences and feel I could definitely tell them apart in a black & white photo...or without belts/masks for that matter.

[Leo656]

I think Aqua's 80% Mirage assessment is fairly accurate.

Also, I think expecting super-dynamic fight scenes in a movie where a bunch of guys are wearing 80-lb semi-animatronic foam rubber suits, and constantly on the verge of passing out, is kinda like expecting Hulk Hogan to do a top-rope legdrop anywhere except 1981 Japan. "I really wish he'd busted out that sweet Enzuigiri against Andre the Giant in '87!" "Hah... no, no... we don't do that here, pal."

It's like, yeah, it's a shortcoming... but you also have to consider the limitations of your medium and be fair. I always got the sense that the fight scenes in the 1990 TMNT movie were literally the best that they could do, and that the cheesy stuff was simply a way to make up for the fact they couldn't actually do a lot, physically. Can't go full Jackie Chan, can't just have guys standing around, so you do shtick. And it would remind people of the cartoon, so it wasn't entirely out of place.

I mean yeah... tighter fight scenes definitely would be an improvement. But let's be real, that was a little beyond their reach at the time. And even with what they were finally able to achieve motion-wise in the third movie, those suits looked comparatively like sh*t. So they never really managed to nail it 100% with those suits. But they gave it their best shot.

I just feel like it's not entirely fair to take points off for something that wasn't reasonably within the filmmakers control. One could say, "Why even bother if they couldn't do it perfectly?", and I'd see the logic in that, but that's a bit too close to "Why even bother making the movie?" for my liking. The entire film itself is a testament to compromise and making the best of what you've got to work with, for better and worse, and how sometimes a compromise can still lead to something good. That's just one more thing.

[Andrew NDB]

I don't believe for one second the "limitations" of the fights in TMNT 1990 had anything to do with the logistics of the suits or anything. Now, don't get me wrong... they exceeded all expectations with what could be done with animatronic suits in an action sense, especially then and what budget they were working with. But I can't fathom that was the deciding factor in why "Let's have the Turtles strike their opponents with their weapons and hurt them" wasn't a thing. That was only ever a "ehh... we better tread lightly around these angry parent groups and such, and SURGE has that toy stuff and all" thing, and nothing else.

And then they STILL kowtowed to it, with the aftermath. That's why there was no weapons usage at all in TMNT II, just a nunchuk sausage.

[Leo656]

I have no doubt that was part of the conversation, sure. But the actors were practically keeling over from dehydration just walking around, so there's absolutely an issue of practicality involved as well.

For them to try and assemble anything "exciting and dramatic" out of the fight scenes would have required, shall we say, very liberal and excessive use of jump cuts, in order to hide the very frequent edits, which would have threatened to make the whole thing look like an even bigger farce. They certainly wouldn't have been going full-blown, "Cobra Kai Season 2 Finale" with the choreography. More like "3 Ninjas: High Noon At Mega Mountain", or "Side Kicks". That wouldn't have been very good, either.

It's like why Keaton's Batman spent most of his time scowling and knocking guys out with one punch, rather than engaging in Batfleck-level shenanigans. Dude couldn't f*cking move! Doesn't make his movie retroactively "bad" or even "lesser" for being trapped within the restraints of 1989's technology; it's simply something that later films managed to do better. Y'gotta grade these things on a curve, it's only fair.

Yes, there was almost definitely a lot of conversation about "not being too violent for the kiddies", but I'm inclined to believe that at least some of the choices made for the choreography was simply put down to not wanting to literally bury these guys after they died of heat stroke, and/or not wanting the movie to be a choppy-looking piece of sh*t. I'm inclined to believe they could have still managed more than "block-block-kick" and not had to resort to so much comedy, BUT, it probably would have come at a trade-off that ultimately might not have served anyone all that well in the end.

Now, you wanna talk about a movie that always get put over despite the fight scenes being wretched, I'll see your TMNT 1990 and raise you a Superman II. That whole movie's pretty much a flaming wreck, but it comes with the "bonus" of the most boring and hack-ish "fight" scenes between all-powerful demigods that anyone's ever put to film. And they didn't have the "excuse" of being buried in foam rubber, either. They could've done just about anything they wanted, and that pansy-ass slap fight is the best they came up with. I mean, I know a thing or two about setting up make-believe fights, and I'm inclined to believe just about anyone could have staged a better climax than that pile.

I know you agree with me about that movie. I'm just putting things into perspective.

[sgtfbomb]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Oh wow, that would make the fight so much darker and Mirage-like. Like the rest of the movie, starring Danny, Dude Mikey, and Darth Shredder's Halfway House of Troubled Youths.

Block-block-kick, block-block-kick, block-block-kick.

I didn't say "it would make the film darker." You seemed to have ignored the part where I said, "But these were more likely cut for pacing reasons, not violence. "