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Old 12-14-2006, 04:46 AM   #41
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I didn't want to mention that because it might not be peacfully accepted. Thanks for being my human shield, Ecto. Seriously, that is how it works. If people see a girl playing with a toy in advertisements more often than a boy, few moms will get it for their sons. It's an unintentional bias.

Actually, I have met a few female TMNT fans before. I'm pretty sure that the girly female TMNT fans are one-in-a-million because these all had that rough & tumble thing going on. And, they all looked like they could beat me up.

No hard feelings, Warhorse. I love a good wiseass. Just don't hurt me, and we'll call it even. Deal?
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Old 12-14-2006, 10:06 AM   #42
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I was thinking about this while I still worked at a toy store. The girls aisle stuff has crap, stuff like bratz... I would never buy that for any kid ever. Talk about bad influences. The worst part is it was one of the most popular toys.
Egadz. Agreed on that. The Barbie aisle at Target looks like some kind of Pepto-Bismol induced nightmare...
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Old 12-14-2006, 10:13 AM   #43
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I always have felt inexplicably uncomfortable whenever I've had to walk down a Barbie aisle. No idea why.
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Old 12-14-2006, 10:22 AM   #44
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I didn't want to mention that because it might not be peacfully accepted. Thanks for being my human shield, Ecto. Seriously, that is how it works. If people see a girl playing with a toy in advertisements more often than a boy, few moms will get it for their sons. It's an unintentional bias.
Heh... and sometimes a not-so-unintentional bias. I don't think that's a controversial topic, gobo. Most women are not new to the concept of double standards.

And the girls' toy aisle... it's like a fuzzy pink hell. Luckily, by the time I was born my older brothers had fairly abandoned their toy chest, so I got to play with leggos, nerf balls, skateboards, and all sorts of other stuff that was marketed for boyz. Not to mention having access to dad's collection of tools.

I don't look like I could beat you up. But I could build you a half-pipe.
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Old 12-14-2006, 10:57 AM   #45
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I wouldn't be able to beat you up or build you a half-pipe, but I could rebuild Windows on your computer. And then I could sew you some fuzzy pajamas.

Oh, and when you work at a toy store the Barbie aisle is THE most feared aisle of the entire store. Not only is there an ungodly amount of pink, but it's also the most trashed aisle.

I do find that I do not like female heroes who are built to be so badass that it almost comes across as phoney. The best example I can think of is Mara Jade from Star Wars. I can't STAND her, yet I know a lot of female SW fans who look up to her as a female role model.
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Old 12-14-2006, 12:18 PM   #46
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I do find that I do not like female heroes who are built to be so badass that it almost comes across as phoney. The best example I can think of is Mara Jade from Star Wars. I can't STAND her, yet I know a lot of female SW fans who look up to her as a female role model.
I wonder if this has something to do with my preference that April doesn't kick butt in TMNT. I mean, in the new movie it looks like she will, and I don't know how I feel about that.

Then again, I think it's less of a "look, what a phony kickbutt heroine" and more of "the Turtles are the main characters, dangit!"

I don't mind April training with Splinter at all - but I think she shouldn't get good beyond being able to hold off bad guys until the Turtles get there. After all, they have how much training under their belts compared to her? For her to be WOW AMAZING wouldn't make sense (unless she took karate through childhood, heh).

Though to be honest, new toon April is a much better role model for girls than old toon April "Damsel in Distress" O'Neil.
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Old 12-14-2006, 01:09 PM   #47
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I don't mind April training with Splinter at all - but I think she shouldn't get good beyond being able to hold off bad guys until the Turtles get there. After all, they have how much training under their belts compared to her? For her to be WOW AMAZING wouldn't make sense (unless she took karate through childhood, heh).
It goes against the grain for me, to have females that are too powerful. At least physically. Leave that to the guy department with the actual physical strengths, in geneeral, they're built for it.
As far as endurance, toughness, resilience, and mental strength, yes, women can definitely be that.
My fave female fictional character is Eowyn, the Rohirrim princess from Tolkien's Lord of the Rings whose biggest fight was within herself. I loved the movie adaptation of her, she was an ordinary female human with ordinary physical limitations, dealing with realistic problems, had extensive training and talent with swordfighting, and an extraordinary dose of courage. Therefore someone a woman could possibly be in real life. A believable yet heroic character.

And yeah, I don't like seeing people upstaging the TMNT too much. I watch the cartoons, movies and read the comics because of them as well as Splinter.
April and Casey are tolerable, and I do like some of their characterizations.

I have been idly entertaining the idea of writing a "TMNT in Middle-earth" crossover, imagine the turtles and Splinter fighting orcs... but its likely they will be mistaken for orcs themselves. That could get bad for them, with both sides being against them...
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Old 12-14-2006, 01:55 PM   #48
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I'm not a chick, but if I had to choose one woman who I would look up to it'd be Ripley from aliens.

Seems like the majority of females who like TMNT had brothers. Coincidence?
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Old 12-14-2006, 02:13 PM   #49
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I have no brothers only sisters and I like the turtles. I liked shows like Gummy Bears, Care bears, My Little Pony, Transformors, Pirates of Dark Water, Conan the Adventurer, Ghostbusters, Ducktales, Darkwing Duck, The Rescue Rangers and a whole bunch of other cartoons. For me it was a mixed bag I liked both boy and girl cartoons .

Thge ninja turtles apealed to me I think because they where funny and I loved their interactions with one another. People can say that the old toon was shallow but I think quite often the old toon showed the turtles in states of diffrent emotion. And I liked that. It was light drama for me with out it being so dramatic that it brought me down.

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Though to be honest, new toon April is a much better role model for girls than old toon April "Damsel in Distress" O'Neil.
Old toon April show cases a diffrent kind of strong female other than the one the that can jump into the fray and kick butt and hold her own. Remeber that this toon was made back in the 80's just a decade after the whole modern feminist movment. So April I think show cased like that. She was a go-getter and one that wasn't overly concerned about looking femimine or getting a guy but more about advanceing her career. And she was certainly not the mild mannered meek sort of woman eighther that earlier cartoons show case females. She was spunky and spirited, and actually i think her personality is intresting than new toon Aprils.
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Old 12-14-2006, 02:54 PM   #50
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Seems like the majority of females who like TMNT had brothers. Coincidence?
I have a younger brother, but he wasn't much influence on my interests. Wait, scratch that... he actually had a bit of influence in what I DIDN'T like. But since I'm the older sibling, I generally had more influence in his interests. I liked TMNT first, then he liked it, but eventually he grew out of it. I remain the "freak" in the family who goes to crazy conventions dressed in wacky costumes.

The role of April as a "fighter" hasn't ever bothered me much. She was wielding a sword back in the Archie books, too. So long as the big bad battle at the end is only the TMNT, it's all good.
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Old 12-14-2006, 08:52 PM   #51
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oooooh pirates of dark water, nice call. I still love that cartoon, I need to download it or something.
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Old 12-14-2006, 09:00 PM   #52
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Hmm. Didn't think of that. I have two older brothers, one acts a lot like Raph, the other like Don. The "Don" bro is, surprise, surprise! an engineer.
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Old 12-14-2006, 09:37 PM   #53
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Old toon April show cases a diffrent kind of strong female other than the one the that can jump into the fray and kick butt and hold her own. Remeber that this toon was made back in the 80's just a decade after the whole modern feminist movment. So April I think show cased like that. She was a go-getter and one that wasn't overly concerned about looking femimine or getting a guy but more about advanceing her career. And she was certainly not the mild mannered meek sort of woman eighther that earlier cartoons show case females. She was spunky and spirited, and actually i think her personality is intresting than new toon Aprils.
I hear you about the spiritedness. But, I always thought that she started out an excellent female role-model, and quickly became a femi-nazi parody. The outspoken female who perpetuates her own dependence by getting herself in trouble all the time. If she hadn't helped save the day in some eps, I'd have decided that she was only a plot-device.
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Old 12-14-2006, 11:06 PM   #54
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It goes against the grain for me, to have females that are too powerful. At least physically. Leave that to the guy department with the actual physical strengths, in geneeral, they're built for it.
As far as endurance, toughness, resilience, and mental strength, yes, women can definitely be that.
My fave female fictional character is Eowyn, the Rohirrim princess from Tolkien's Lord of the Rings whose biggest fight was within herself. I loved the movie adaptation of her, she was an ordinary female human with ordinary physical limitations, dealing with realistic problems, had extensive training and talent with swordfighting, and an extraordinary dose of courage. Therefore someone a woman could possibly be in real life. A believable yet heroic character.

And yeah, I don't like seeing people upstaging the TMNT too much. I watch the cartoons, movies and read the comics because of them as well as Splinter.
April and Casey are tolerable, and I do like some of their characterizations.

I have been idly entertaining the idea of writing a "TMNT in Middle-earth" crossover, imagine the turtles and Splinter fighting orcs... but its likely they will be mistaken for orcs themselves. That could get bad for them, with both sides being against them...
I so agree with your statement on Eowyn. A lot of people complained about Tolkien not having enough women in LOTR epic, but if you were to look at the ones he characterised, they were quite powerful. Not in the sense of physical strength, but in their influence, personal strength and wisdom.

While I agree with most of you that it is ridiculous to see a woman over power a man, (one of the reasons why I think Karai beating the Turtles all the time is getting under my skin) I still idolize Linda Hamilton's Sara Connor from Terminator 2. I just thought she was too cool.

As for boys having an influence on my liking the Turtles. More than likely. Most of my friends then and now are guys, and they were heavily into the TMNT. It eventually grew on me and I became a fan. And most of the girls I hung out with thought the Turtles were cool. I dont know of anyone of them who ever bought a Barbie. Who in their right minds buy Barbie anyways?
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Old 12-20-2006, 12:29 PM   #55
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I hear you about the spiritedness. But, I always thought that she started out an excellent female role-model, and quickly became a femi-nazi parody. The outspoken female who perpetuates her own dependence by getting herself in trouble all the time. If she hadn't helped save the day in some eps, I'd have decided that she was only a plot-device.
she was an out right plot devise on many occasions. I was just pointing out that there are other ways for a female character to be a strong character with out being a fighter. In fact I think it is more realistic for a female character to be shown as strong in other ways than by being a fighter. Mostly because I think the average feamle viewer would indentify with her more, since most females in normal society can bust out a few fighting moves and take on a group of armed fighters at a drop of a hat (or guys for that matter eighther)
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Old 12-20-2006, 02:14 PM   #56
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While I agree with most of you that it is ridiculous to see a woman over power a man, (one of the reasons why I think Karai beating the Turtles all the time is getting under my skin) I still idolize Linda Hamilton's Sara Connor from Terminator 2. I just thought she was too cool.
I don't think its at all ridiculous to see a woman overpower a man. In fact, I've seen it IRL. Granted, overpowering 4 ninjas who've been training since they could walk is a different story.
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Old 12-20-2006, 02:39 PM   #57
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Granted, overpowering 4 ninjas who've been training since they could walk is a different story.
Yeah. That's just overcompensating PC BS.
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Old 12-30-2006, 06:00 PM   #58
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I'm sure 95% of the guys would never have loved TMNT if they were females... I mean, just imagining "4 teenage mutant ninja female turtles" inside my head gives me the shivers. I'd guess most females would not like TMNT either if they were females.

TMNT is very macho when you think about it. Putting girls in a macho setting would be very, very weird. It wouldn't be the TMNT anymore.

The reason there are few good female heroes is because IRL, female fighters are very rare relative to male fighters. The (human) female gender is not a fighter, the (human) male gender is. And on top of that, watching cartoons is male-dominated, and the cartoonists are well... males

About Kirai I don't have problems accepting her as a great fighter. Yes so she looks weak but you could imagine she has extremely strong tendons, extraordinarily strong muscle tissue, extremely high pain tolerance and lots and lots of speed. Stuff like that. She's a freak of nature

April however, in the 2003 cartoons, is VERY annoying as a fighter. For a very long time, she cannot fight, and all of a sudden, she fights off big, strong men who know how to fight, because she's been taking some lessons from Splinter? That is so unbelievable it's funny. Really reminds you that it's a kiddies cartoon
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Old 12-30-2006, 06:40 PM   #59
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I have a younger brother, but he wasn't much influence on my interests. Wait, scratch that... he actually had a bit of influence in what I DIDN'T like. But since I'm the older sibling, I generally had more influence in his interests. .
Same here....I liked the TMNT before my younger brother did. He grew out of it and so did I until 2001. No one knows about my childhood interest. If anyone was curious on what my trombone looks like.

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Old 01-01-2007, 04:16 AM   #60
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I'm male, and most of the TMNT fans I've befriended online have been female. Then again, most of my online friends are female, period. Not entirely sure why that is. I've also noticed that a high percentage of fanfiction writers on the Internet are female, and I'm not entirely sure why that is, either.

So given my natural inclination to gravitate toward fanfiction writers (since I am one) and TMNT fans (since I'm one of those, too), it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that I'm exposed to the female mindset a lot.

What I've learned in these interactions is that some of the female TMNT fans are interested in the personalities due to crushes on them or due to simply relating more to them than to female characters. Heck, I think one female fanfic writer (not in the TMNT fandom) put it well when she said (I'm paraphrasing here) that most of the personality traits she likes seeing in characters are present in males rather than females. Not out of a subconscious desire on her part to be a guy, but because male characters typically get to be more adventurous and deep than their female counterparts, who are usually the love interests. She's more interested in the protagonists than the supporting characters, which typically leads to her identifying more with the guys.

I myself enjoy strong female characters, in fiction and in real life. Some of the stronger people in my life have been women, so I'm used to seeing that and I tend to seek that out (consciously or not) in stories. Heck, one of my favorite fandoms, X-Men, is rife with strong, interesting women. Not necessarily 'strong' in terms of butt-kicking, but in terms of character development. I consider myself primarily a character writer, so that kind of thing is important to me.

On the subject of female characters in TMNT, I thought April was hot when I was a kid, but it seemed like the longer the '80s cartoon went on, the more she played the damsel. She was constantly the bait Shredder used to lure the Turtles, even when he really didn't need to. She showed a lot of spunk in her efforts at resisting her capture, but it grated on me after a while. The video games really bothered me, because the story for each one seemed to be set in motion by April's kidnapping. I'm like, "find a new motivation already! I'm sure the Turtles would be more than happy to go kick Foot Clan butt even without having to bail April out!"

I liked that April learned to fight in the comics (Mirage and Archie versions especially), and I was rather pleased that April was a playable fighting character in a couple of the video games: Tournament Fighters and Mutant Melee. I don't care how generally reviled Mutant Melee is, I enjoy kicking butt in that game with April, as she genuinely looks like she's having fun doing it. Her celebratory booty-shake-dance animation alone is worth the price of admission, I feel.

That said, I agree that she shouldn't be portrayed as being on an even level with the Turtles, as she hasn't had nearly as much training. When I roleplayed as April in this forum, I liked portraying her as someone who was still learning. She knew just enough to maybe take down one Foot soldier on a good day, but she had to work her butt off to do so. Her confidence in battle was a work in progress.

Contrast that with Karai, one of my absolute favorite characters in the franchise. I was instantly fascinated by her depth and her range of emotion. She's one of the more conflicted characters in the franchise, so she's interesting to watch, especially when she's interacting with Leo. She's a vastly different character than April, and she's not a damsel in distress by any means. I like that she can hold her own against the Turtles in combat. I don't think it's unrealistic at all that she could defeat them, especially if she relies on her agility and powerful kicks. Her skill with the sword ain't too shabby either. She's not physically stronger than most of her opponents, but raw strength really isn't a focus of ninjutsu anyway.

So I suppose all that long-winded stuff means that I can understand where some of the female TMNT fans are coming from in their interest, and that being a male TMNT fan sometimes means liking the female characters as well. It's not a clear-cut issue. Just as not all women are into stuff like Barbie, not all guys are into stuff like TMNT purely for the butt-kicking. People are more diverse and complicated than that.
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