Should the Franchise Be Going In the Opposite Direction?

[PizzaPower1985]

Hi, I haven't been here in ages, but...

I have been thinking about TMNT a lot lately, continuing on with what Waltz, Eastman and co. at IDW have been doing, watching 2K3, watching the best of the OT, re-reading all of Mirage Vol. 1, playing the video games and watching the 3 original films.

My question is... Is TMNT being too dumbed down? Is it becoming solely a children's property or a property for younger audiences? Should it be? Or should we be getting back toward what Kevin (Eastman) and Peter (Laird) originally envisioned? This is a trend I have noticed with a lot of 30+ year old properties (they are becoming far too kid friendly for the original fans).

Most of us original TMNT fans are now in our 30's and 40's (I'm 34). Is there a point where we become too old for things like the 2012 cartoon, Rise, the Bay films etc.? Are the Waltz/Eastman comics the only recent "serious" TMNT we can get? I'm not saying it should be exactly like Mirage and every aspect should be somber, violent or serious, but does every media adaptation, film, cartoon have to be marketed DIRECTLY toward children?

Why has it become this way? Is it Nickelodeon's fault? Or am I just imagining things/too old and have lost the plot? Should I just shut up and enjoy what I have and ignore everything new?

[neatoman]

Well we are allowed some level material intended for an older target audience in the form of comics but I get what you're saying.

Some franchises don't really have a problem with making material for both children and adults. What I mean by that isn't that isn't that the material itself is acceptable for children and enjoyable for adults, what I mean is that parallel material can come out, one for adults and another for children. Here we have two different versions of DC comics characters including John Constantine, who much like TMNT he was intended for an older audience from the start:



Now the problem with TMNT is that Viacom/Nickelodeon might not be entirely comfortable with both making a version where the turtles drink beer stab human beings while still marketing a different version to kids. It can be done, it's just up to the studio heads to accept it.

[IndigoErth]

It should absolutely focus on older audiences. Not necessarily exclusively, and I'm fine with some things that keep the vibe and the heart of what TMNT is while being a bit more family friendly -- 2012 did that rather well -- but the "just for kids" mentality, which wasn't at all true in the beginning, needs to end and it needs to steer clear of trying to become younger and younger. Nick doing "Rise" on a decision to go younger was the opposite direction I had hoped they'd go... If it was up to Nick, would a continued push to go younger someday wind them up on Nick Jr.? The Muppet Babies version of TMNT? (And good god, look how someone took that regular old cartoon and rebooted it for preschoolers.)

Thankfully, Batman vs TMNT threw a bit of a lifeline and a reminder that the TMNT isn't just for the kiddies. Between that and the amount of collectables aimed at adults that have come out in the past few years, at least some people out there get it and know full well there is an older audience and fan base that it still eager for more. And if Nick would prefer to pretend that they don't get it, then I hope they just keep allowing DC and/or others of their own under the Viacom/CBS roof, or whoever they decide to allow a license to, to do with them what they, Nick, don't want to.


Do I need them to be acting all bloody and gritty in everything? Nah. I'm fine with, say, the 2003 level and style of doing things, with the occasional grittier production thrown in the mix. But the 12-year-old behavior and tone of 'Rise' is going too far into the childish zone.

[Galactus]

Ideally it should be both for children and adults. I'll never begrudge the next generation of little tykes to have a version of TMNT to call their own complete with toys and games etc. But at the same time we should have a version of TMNT aimed at an older audience like what people are hoping The Last Ronin and the rumoured live action series will be. We too should have some swag of our own and not just nostalgia stuff for the Fred Wolf show (although I don't begrudge Fred Wolf fans from having stuff to buy either) basically all our money is as good as anyone else's they should be exploiting all of us.

Of course young people is were the big bucks are but let's be clear that the most profitable multi media franchise right now is Marvel and they like the vast majority of comic book movies are aimed young people but not little kids. In movies that's were TMNT should not the weird mix of nostalgia for 30 somethings in a package aimed at toddlers like Out Of The Shadows.

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by Galactus

Ideally it should be both for children and adults. I'll never begrudge the next generation of little tykes to have a version of TMNT to call their own complete with toys and games etc. But at the same time we should have a version of TMNT aimed at an older audience like what people are hoping The Last Ronin and the rumoured live action series will be. We too should have some swag of our own and not just nostalgia stuff for the Fred Wolf show (although I don't begrudge Fred Wolf fans from having stuff to buy either) basically all our money is as good as anyone else's they should be exploiting all of us.

Of course young people is were the big bucks are but let's be clear that the most profitable multi media franchise right now is Marvel and they like the vast majority of comic book movies are aimed young people but not little kids. In movies that's were TMNT should not the weird mix of nostalgia for 30 somethings in a package aimed at toddlers like Out Of The Shadows.

I completely agree. Yeah, I mean, in my mind the little ones have and have had their TMNT in every version that isnt the comics. I don't think there shouldn't be something for kids of all ages to latch onto, I just think we need to draw a line for things like toys and cartoons, costumes, bed sheets etc. for kids and then like there needs to be stuff that is for maturer audiences but something you wouldnt b afraid to show your 12 year old... a TV series (live-action) closer in tone to Marvel's Daredevil or Punisher show for those of us that are older fans. Also, to use toys as an example... the Necca/Hot Toys movie figures are nice and adulty for older fans while the little ones can have their 2012 figures and Rise figures. For me, the perfect blend (ALL AGES) of TMNT was the 4Kids Series. I am just old (and possibly bitter) and get dissapointed in the extreme when a new TMNT project is announced and... it's not for me. Everyone raved about the 2012 show so I tried to catch it around 2013 and watched the 1st season in its entirety and by the 3rd episode knew... THEY DIDN'T MAKE THIS FOR ME. About the only thing I can enjoy TMNT related currently is IDW comics and that's on hiatus now, so...

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

It should absolutely focus on older audiences. Not necessarily exclusively, and I'm fine with some things that keep the vibe and the heart of what TMNT is while being a bit more family friendly -- 2012 did that rather well -- but the "just for kids" mentality, which wasn't at all true in the beginning, needs to end and it needs to steer clear of trying to become younger and younger. Nick doing "Rise" on a decision to go younger was the opposite direction I had hoped they'd go... If it was up to Nick, would a continued push to go younger someday wind them up on Nick Jr.? The Muppet Babies version of TMNT? (And good god, look how someone took that regular old cartoon and rebooted it for preschoolers.)

Thankfully, Batman vs TMNT threw a bit of a lifeline and a reminder that the TMNT isn't just for the kiddies. Between that and the amount of collectables aimed at adults that have come out in the past few years, at least some people out there get it and know full well there is an older audience and fan base that it still eager for more. And if Nick would prefer to pretend that they don't get it, then I hope they just keep allowing DC and/or others of their own under the Viacom/CBS roof, or whoever they decide to allow a license to, to do with them what they, Nick, don't want to.


Do I need them to be acting all bloody and gritty in everything? Nah. I'm fine with, say, the 2003 level and style of doing things, with the occasional grittier production thrown in the mix. But the 12-year-old behavior and tone of 'Rise' is going too far into the childish zone.

Everything you said is how I feel about TMNT in general. I just wish more fans would be vocal and not be so accepting everytime something comes out just because it's new. I was in the audience at San Diego Comic Con when Rise of TMNT was first leaked and I damn near cried. All of these people my age were cheering. I'm like "Seriously? Are you okay with this?" Fandom (it's the same with Star Wars) just seems to be so happy for new franchise material that they will accept anything that's thrown at them.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Aiming the franchise towards young children is a successful concept. Hundreds of children today grow up with the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Star Wars, Duck Tales, Mario, Masters of the Universe and Transformers. Wait, wasn't that what their parents grew up with?

Yes, it was and production companies know that. Parents are more willing to spend money on their children's home entertainment when the characters are the same as in the cartoons, comics, books, films and video games the parents grew up with.

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

Aiming the franchise towards young children is a successful concept. Hundreds of children today grow up with the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Star Wars, Duck Tales, Mario, Masters of the Universe and Transformers. Wait, wasn't that what their parents grew up with?

Yes, it was and production companies know that. Parents are more willing to spend money on their children's home entertainment when the characters are the same as in the cartoons, comics, books, films and video games the parents grew up with.

I'm sorry but that feels like such a corporate answer. Even if your point makes sense (and it does) is TMNT just about profit? Sure, it's a billion $$$ industry by now but what about the art of it? The idea that it's mostly or should be mostly for kids just because that's what makes THEM (the evil overlords in business suits) money completely destroys all that is wonderful and holy about TMNT. Yes, it's entertainment, but how long is it truly going to last for those of us who were the original fans, if it keeps going the route it's going? I will not show my children Rise or the 2012 show. I show them the 1990 movie, the 2k3 series, the Red Sky and Pilot season of OT, stuff that doesn't treat children like they're a bunch of dumb... children. I want my kids to be stimulated, not talked down to.

[sdp]

Nickelodeon owns TMNT, it's solely a children's property now.

[Sharman]

All I can say on this is that Eastman and Laird were quite happy to have what amounted to two forms of the franchise back in the day - the edgier, grittier stuff in the original Mirage comics and the more family-friendly alternative in the cartoon/Archie comics.
Seems a win-win to me and I only hope that Nickelodeon can recognise that and not put all of their eggs into the one basket.

[ABrown]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

Thankfully, Batman vs TMNT threw a bit of a lifeline and a reminder that the TMNT isn't just for the kiddies.

It's without question my favorite thing to come out of the franchise over the last 10 years.

For the record, I have absolutely no problem with the franchise putting out kid friendly media (Namely Rise). I do have a problem with it not being very good though.

[Wesley]

Originally Posted by Sharman

All I can say on this is that Eastman and Laird were quite happy to have what amounted to two forms of the franchise back in the day - the edgier, grittier stuff in the original Mirage comics and the more family-friendly alternative in the cartoon/Archie comics.
Seems a win-win to me and I only hope that Nickelodeon can recognise that and not put all of their eggs into the one basket.

Agreed. And I didn’t grow up with the 1990 movie, so that was something ‘new’ and edgy to me, as I didn’t see it until a few years ago. Never read the comics and don’t care much for the newer stuff (2012, Bay films, etc.), but the old stuff I like is still there at least.

[PizzaPower1985]

Would I be unfair in declaring anything that is kid friendly "by today's standards" to be garbage?

Let's look at history for a second... The 87 Toon (OT) was kid friendly but aspects of it can still be taken seriously and watched by adults. The 2K3 show was "ALL AGES" like BTAS or the 90's Marvel shows. Everything after 2K3 has been a disappointment. As censorship has gotten tighter as time has gone on, kids today don't seem to be allowed to be exposed to the same things we were exposed to in the late 80's/early 90's OR "kid's shows" today don't have the allowances that shows we grew up on had. If there isn't at least some evidence to TMNT fans that THINGS ARE GOING BACKWARDS then I can't frankly help them. We are in a very conservative, puerile era of entertainment that threatens to dumb down and turn young children into subhuman idiots with the crap that they are being fed these days.

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by PizzaPower1985

Would I be unfair in declaring anything that is kid friendly "by today's standards" to be garbage?

For a lot of it, no, not really. So much of it has become so dumbed down and derpy. The shift is pretty obvious when old eps of an already silly show like Spongebob are seen in contrast with the newer dumber ones. And I keep waiting for the butt obsession in cartoons to end... (I mean, Ren & Stimpy had the butt thing and durpiness back in my day, but that was that show, because that show was supposed to be weird... it wasn't every show, like that's the only thing that's funny now.)

Then you get a show like 'Rise' that tries too hard to be all cool and up to date with the memes junk, etc, and that show is going to age sooo badly because of it. lol I mean that "dabbing" nonsense was getting old and annoying already well before they decided Leo should do it for some damn reason.

[Leo656]

MLP: FiM is objectively one of the greatest things ever, and I say this with no irony whatsoever, BUT, it's an obvious exception and deserves to be in a class all its own. Also, studies show that about 70% or more of the people who've ever watched it were age 15-30. Credit to the showrunners for leaning into it rather than pushing those people away.

Otherwise, though, yeah, "children's entertainment" in the Here and Now is pretty much junk. And a lot of that is by design.

[IndigoErth]

Have to agree with you on that one. Never more than just a casual viewer, but have probably seen all of it and it was a pretty good show and was kinda sad that it ended. One of the rare reboots these days of an old property that was genuinely good, and dare I say even made into something better.

I mean when you take a kids property aimed at little girls and make something even the grown men like...you did something right. "Girl stuff" tends to be so limited and stereotyped, it's nice that a series dads and daughters might both enjoy together is even possible.

[Zog The Magnificent]

Listening to the conversation, I wonder if you're all watching the same cartoons I am. Cartoons have gotten way better then the 80s and 90s. They're able to do more, explore darker themes, have actual violence sometimes, have more continuity and character development, actually being written with end goals in mind, to say nothing of what people can do with representation these days if they so desire. If anything, censorship has gotten far less restricitve. The shows that exist today could never have existed in the 80s, 90s, or event the early 2000s, and thanks to this we have some of the best cartoons to have ever existed, like Adventure Time, Regular Show, Young Justice, etc. I'm genuinely not sure where some of the perspectives I've seen here are coming from.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

Have to agree with you on that one. Never more than just a casual viewer, but have probably seen all of it and it was a pretty good show and was kinda sad that it ended. One of the rare reboots these days of an old property that was genuinely good, and dare I say even made into something better.

I mean when you take a kids property aimed at little girls and make something even the grown men like...you did something right. "Girl stuff" tends to be so limited and stereotyped, it's nice that a series dads and daughters might both enjoy together is even possible.

This weekend, wife and I watched the 2017 MLP movie, followed by the 1986 one. Ooof. Talk about starting off with something that had very little substance to it in its original 1980s incarnation, and finding a way to over-achieve and turn its re-reboot into something that's actually not just "good", but like, super-good in more modern times. They really caught lightning in a bottle with FiM. I don't wanna say the original version was worthless or anything, but... vapid, maybe?

We were both very, very sad to see the FiM show end, but it is what it is. It's our favorite thing we ever thought we were gonna watch one time to make fun of it and then accidentally got sincerely into. Life's funny sometimes.
---------------

Zog: Being only passingly familiar with some of those shows you listed, I can't say much, other than Young Justice was probably not a "kids show".

When I personally refer to "kids shows", I'm thinking mostly of stuff that I see in passing on Nick and Discovery Family and such.

[PApagreg]

As long as its good I don't really care for example my two favorite animated iterations are 2k3 and Rise

Originally Posted by PizzaPower1985

Would I be unfair in declaring anything that is kid friendly "by today's standards" to be garbage?

Let's look at history for a second... The 87 Toon (OT) was kid friendly but aspects of it can still be taken seriously and watched by adults.

Speak for your own age group I pretty much watched every show in the TMNT iteration and I would rather the latter seasons of 12 than any of the good OT episodes.

Originally Posted by PizzaPower1985

The 2K3 show was "ALL AGES" like BTAS or the 90's Marvel shows. Everything after 2K3 has been a disappointment. As censorship has gotten tighter as time has gone on, kids today don't seem to be allowed to be exposed to the same things we were exposed to in the late 80's/early 90's OR "kid's shows" today don't have the allowances that shows we grew up on had. If there isn't at least some evidence to TMNT fans that THINGS ARE GOING BACKWARDS then I can't frankly help them. We are in a very conservative, puerile era of entertainment that threatens to dumb down and turn young children into subhuman idiots with the crap that they are being fed these days.

Just because there are some shows that go lighter and softer doesn't mean every show is the same, this is a scene from Infinity Train Book 2 a show that just started in January.

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

Then you get a show like 'Rise' that tries too hard to be all cool and up to date with the memes junk, etc, and that show is going to age sooo badly because of it. lol I mean that "dabbing" nonsense was getting old and annoying already well before they decided Leo should do it for some damn reason.

Yep because as well all know the TMNT franchise was always known to be timeless and not a reflection of the decade they were released also they used meme humor for like 2 episodes at most.

Originally Posted by Leo656

Zog: Being only passingly familiar with some of those shows you listed, I can't say much, other than Young Justice was probably not a "kids show".

When I personally refer to "kids shows", I'm thinking mostly of stuff that I see in passing on Nick and Discovery Family and such.

Well you're missing out a lot by not watching stuff from Netflix, CN or Disney in fact you'll probably love Regular Show

[Leo656]

I'm the one guy who doesn't have Netflix.