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Old 11-22-2020, 12:49 AM   #341
IndigoErth
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Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
And here I thought the U.S. was the greatest country in the world. I guess everything I was told in the American education system in school was a lie. I guess it's true that each country brainwashes and indoctrinates their kids into thinking whereever they live is the best country on the planet.

I guess everyone is a villain.
Now now, be nice, some sensitive souls get their feelings hurt when pointed out that American exceptionalism has always been a myth; a thing to believe in but not ever really lived up to. So far. But the nice thing is that there is always room to keep trying to improve in that direction...if people will stop acting like nitwits who don't want to admit improvements can be made, and that it can start right here at home. For starters, doing so poorly with that virus in comparison to many other countries isn't the right direction. >.>
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Old 11-22-2020, 01:16 AM   #342
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I like when Americans keep insisting on the virus being political, despite the fact that this is a worldwide pandemic and the rest of the world can give a rat's ass if it's an election year or not for our arrogant fatass country.
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Old 11-22-2020, 04:18 AM   #343
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If some people can't get past knee jerk responses (on either side of the political divide) when they glance certain names or words and don't care about or ignore the context, that is not my problem.
But it is not a knee-jerk reaction: when people constantly evoke comparisons, which usually should have some weight behind them, those comparisons lose all meanings.

Obvious example is how words like "racist", "sexist", "nazi" has been diluted of its original context, thanks to being constantly evoked by brainless 'tards on Twitter.

Nowadays, most people won't give a ****, if someone call them "racist" or "sexist", because, those words has become so meaningless due to overuse, that they've lost all power for the normal people, familiar with the Internet. If people constantly evoke those words to call just about anyone, who they disagree with, than those words lose meaning and power.

This is why, when you compare someone to Hitler, it shouldn't be taken lightly and should have some weight behind it. If you evoke this comparison just for the sake of it, without proper context and without proper goal, you end up with something completely meaningless, which further dilutes meaning of such comparison.

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How far the world has sunk that putting thought into something, too much for some to grasp I guess, is somehow "brainless."
If an absolutely generic "captain Obvious" talking point and a comparison is called "something, which you put thought into", than, I have no choice, but to agree: the world sunk too far.

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I like when Americans keep insisting on the virus being political, despite the fact that this is a worldwide pandemic and the rest of the world can give a rat's ass if it's an election year or not for our arrogant fatass country.
But virus has become political and not in US only, thanks to both sides using it as a tool to control population one way or the other. Unless you think, "virus being political" is an exclusively American think, which demonstrates your own "American exceptionalism", LOL.
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Old 11-22-2020, 05:19 AM   #344
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Now now, be nice, some sensitive souls get their feelings hurt when pointed out that American exceptionalism has always been a myth; a thing to believe in but not ever really lived up to.
You're nuts. This is the only country in the world where an individual is "allowed" and given the tools to rise above their station. It might be harder for some than for others, but the opportunity is always there for anyone to scratch and claw their way to the mythical "1%." Our "poor" live more comfortably than most of the world's "middle class". An abused kid can run away from home in a completely different country, live on the streets sleeping under cardboard boxes, find his way here and become a multi-millionaire, Hollywood movie star and beloved global icon (see one "Toombs, George Roderick").

If you don't think that's "exceptional", then I don't know what to tell you. Other than, you should chat with more people who've emigrated here and pick their brain as to WHY they all wanna be here so bad in the first place. It ain't for Disneyland; it's because Back There, they're doomed to be stuck in one place forever, and Here, they can earn six figures within ten years.

THAT's "American Exceptionalism". Providing a system that encourages achievement and presents unlimited opportunity for those willing to make the necessary sacrifices. That's all it's EVER been about, and it's indisputably real. That's the entire reason a bunch of knaves and ne'er-do-wells founded this place. They came from a place where they were told "Where you're born is where you'll die and you'll never out-earn your fathers", and they weren't satisfied with that, said "Screw your system" and started their own. The whole WORLD is better off thanks to our existence and involvement in global affairs. WE were at the forefront of manufacturing, and technology, and a global trading system that wasn't based on outright theft. And all those countries that outperform us in those areas now wouldn't have ever been in the game if we hadn't literally presented them with the tools - and the jobs - to do so.

"American Exceptionalism" is and has always been real. It might not mean exactly what some people profess it to mean, but it absolutely exists. We've done SO much good for the world and spent the entire 20th Century almost single-handedly pulling everyone else out of the figurative Dark Ages. We've created more millionaires (and billionaires) than any other country in the world, and some of them can't even read. That might be a poor example of what's so "great" about us, but it proves the point about how just about any idiot can find a way into the Upper Crust here, no matter where they come from.

Like, what more does anyone want? ALL THIS in less than 250 years, and you say that's not "exceptional"? Horseradish.

There's this constant, deep sense of shame and a chorus of "I'm so ashamed of this country" always coming from some people, and I confess that I don't understand it at all. Anything "bad" about America is many times worse anywhere else. Racism? Way worse in Germany, China, Japan, etc. Poverty? Again, our "poor" live better than anywhere else. Government overreach? Hey, at least we don't live in a place where the secret police can kick in your door and literally shoot you in the head for criticizing the government, which can and does still happen all over the place, but not here. I mean WHAT, exactly, is supposedly so lousy about this place that it needs to be "apologized" for, or "ashamed" of, that isn't also happening to an amplified degree in most of the rest of the world?

If it's just the general elitist attitude of huge swarths of the population, well... that's maybe off-putting but hardly a sin. Certainly nothing to feel shame or embarrassment over.

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I like when Americans keep insisting on the virus being political, despite the fact that this is a worldwide pandemic and the rest of the world can give a rat's ass if it's an election year or not for our arrogant fatass country.
I'd love to know if hospitals in other countries were caught putting down "COVID-19" on literally every single person's death certificates between March and June so they could get more funding from the government, the way they were Over Here. Or how in my state there's supposedly catastrophic numbers of people sick and dying, yet to a man, almost NOBODY knows anyone who's even had a cold all year. One of the most densely-populated states in the Union, the "official report" stating that we're all keeling over up here and dropping like flies... and yet, it isn't happening. Figuratively "nobody" in NJ is sick. You can drive the whole state top-to-bottom in two hours and you can see for yourself: Roads are packed, people are out and about and it's been that way since July. If the "official numbers" were true, and every single person living here knew 10-to-100 people who got sick and/or died from this, then rest assured, they wouldn't all be flocking to Red Lobster. They're not THAT stupid.

THAT's why in this country, the pandemic is a political football. Because in other countries they probably aren't flat-out lying to people as a way to either force compliance OR get some Orange Boogeyman out of office by blaming it all on him. In America, politics are a contact sport and when things go bad we demand a blood sacrifice. It maybe isn't like that Over There.

But the fact is, the reason people don't trust the official reports isn't because we're "fat and arrogant", it's that those reports don't come CLOSE to what most people see with their own two eyes. EVEN IF they're only lying to force compliance - "If we make it seem worse than it is, that might scare people into staying home/wearing masks/etc. so we can kill this thing quicker" - when people discover they're being lied to, it makes them resentful and mistrustful. It's like a kid who finds out his parents lies to them about how bad smoking pot was, and figures "I might as well try coke and heroin, they're probably lying about that stuff, too." Even if your heart's in the right place, you CAN'T just lie to people and expect to scare them into doing what you want. They push back when you do that.

Between FB, people I see out shopping, and the hundreds of people who attended the shows I wrestled on in October and November, y'know how many of the people I've personally spoken to in NJ have had a brush with COVID? Tito Santana. LITERALLY just Tito Santana. He's fine, now, by the way. But he did have it, and now he's fine, and he's not ranting and raving about how it's a "death sentence" or anything. He wore his mask to the show, but if anyone wanted a no-mask picture taken with him, he wasn't scared of either getting it again from them nor giving it to them just because he had it.

So yeah, COVID is real, but are the numbers of sick and dead in the American media reports real? Highly, HIGHLY doubt it. And that's why people say it's being used "politically". If Rachael Maddow goes on TV and says, "The State of NJ is buried under twelve feet of snow", and I walk outside and it's 65 degrees and sunny... she can repeat that story all she wants but it's only going to make the people who know better shake their heads, call her a liar, and wonder what the hell she's trying to accomplish by repeatedly and forcefully declaring "information" that anyone with two eyes can see simply is not true.

That's the biggest problem in this country right now, the sensationalist media (on both sides, to be fair). I'm not the first one to point it out, but basically, back in the day the media reported an event and it was up to you to decide how you felt about it. Now, the media tells you how to feel about something and you have to decide for yourself if it even happened or not.

But you can't blame people for being skeptical when someone screams "The sky is falling", and you can see for yourself that no, it isn't. Of COURSE they're gonna wonder what the hidden agenda is. Because otherwise... why would they lie?

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Originally Posted by Sumac View Post
But virus has become political and not in US only, thanks to both sides using it as a tool to control population one way or the other. Unless you think, "virus being political" is an exclusively American think, which demonstrates your own "American exceptionalism", LOL.
Yeah. Like I'm so totally, totally sure that China's been telling the truth about everything since Day One, for instance. Like when they were kicking people out of the hospitals for their state-sponsored "photo ops" showing how they beat the virus and had everything back to normal before the end of March. That was classic! "Just stack those bodies in the corner, we need to show everyone we've got this thing under control!" while they were literally burning corpses because they couldn't dispose of them fast enough.

I mean, I've never said it wasn't a real thing, the virus. Like I said, like anyone else I know A COUPLE people who've had a brush with it. But "the official reports" are almost certainly fake, from either angle. China kept lying and saying everything was fine while people over there kept dying. American media keeps lying and saying that we're about to reenact "The Stand" when nobody knows anyone who's sick except for a few here and there.

As always, The Truth lies somewhere in the middle, but for multiple reasons we're not likely to ever know WHAT exactly The Truth is.

For my part, I've always said I'd believe the sky's falling when I see it for myself. So far, nothing I'm seeing matches what I'm told to believe. So... my state of mind remains unchanged. That's the way it is, and that's the way it's gonna be.
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Old 11-22-2020, 07:00 AM   #345
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There's this constant, deep sense of shame and a chorus of "I'm so ashamed of this country" always coming from some people, and I confess that I don't understand it at all. Anything "bad" about America is many times worse anywhere else. Racism? Way worse in Germany, China, Japan, etc. Poverty? Again, our "poor" live better than anywhere else. Government overreach? Hey, at least we don't live in a place where the secret police can kick in your door and literally shoot you in the head for criticizing the government, which can and does still happen all over the place, but not here. I mean WHAT, exactly, is supposedly so lousy about this place that it needs to be "apologized" for, or "ashamed" of, that isn't also happening to an amplified degree in most of the rest of the world?

If it's just the general elitist attitude of huge swarths of the population, well... that's maybe off-putting but hardly a sin. Certainly nothing to feel shame or embarrassment over.
Brilliant post as always.

And about this part, I think, it is because, people needed some "big goal"; they were born too late to fight commies and too early to colonize Mars, so to speak, so they've created their own neo-religion to "make a difference" and feel their own importance. Popularity of social network, which enhanced narcissism and gave voice to every lunatic, autist and scum also "helped" this.

As a result, we have swath of people who essentially worship their own vision of history and world and want to "atone for their sins" to feel important and "make history and a difference", while basically farting in the wind with their self-hatred and poisoning life of everyone who surround them.
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Old 11-22-2020, 07:29 AM   #346
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Brilliant post as always.

And about this part, I think, it is because, people needed some "big goal"; they were born too late to fight commies and too early to colonize Mars, so to speak, so they've created their own neo-religion to "make a difference" and feel their own importance. Popularity of social network, which enhanced narcissism and gave voice to every lunatic, autist and scum also "helped" this.

As a result, we have swath of people who essentially worship their own vision of history and world and want to "atone for their sins" to feel important and "make history and a difference", while basically farting in the wind with their self-hatred and poisoning life of everyone who surround them.
Much obliged.

To your analysis, I can only offer this:

"Everywhere you looked there was confusion, violence, drama and drugs...
So many righteous revolutionaries spouting Utopian love...
Everyone shrouded in purple haze...
Then one day they woke up from their dream state...
They found themselves no more at peace than before...
Older, meek, and conformed...

Empty Causes!
A bluster for the soul, a fix for their mind!
Empty Causes!
Cling to everything you find!

Well, the shots rang out like popcorn
And the Chief was hit and rushed out of sight...
The Mohawk-chain, leather brigade rejoiced maliciously on that night...
Someone cried out "F*ck the government!"
His mates couldn't define what he meant!
So no one gave him the time of day,
And the scene died away...

Empty Causes!
A war for the body, an army in the mind!
Empty Causes!
Losing steam as time goes by...

Could it be that everybody selfishly desires their own personal retinue?
And that causes are just manifestations
Of too much time, and far too little to do...?


Empty Causes!
Direction for the soul... Conviction for the mind!
Empty Causes!
Cling to everything you find!
Empty Causes!
You've got yours... and I've got mine!"

------------

Not a bad assessment coming from a bunch of left-leaning Liberals.

I've often said, the only religion the world NEEDS... is Bad Religion. I don't always agree with them politically but their observations have always been astute. That song is about 25 years old but probably more relevant right now than it's ever been. The part in bold is pretty much exactly what you've supposed.
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Old 11-22-2020, 10:10 AM   #347
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INDIGO IS RIGHT... To a point... The truth about exceptionalism is that it's not American. Every developed country sees itself as exceptional.

Canada has their Royal Army and the Greatest Healthcare in the World... Exceptional.

Britain has its Royal Family and was the envy of the world for centuries... Exceptional.

The problem is... nothing makes a country exceptional. Nothing! Americans and their propaganda about god, free enterprise, the ability to "pull yourself up by your bootstraps." It's all BS and only works if you believe in god, have money or have bootstraps to pull yourself up from. Some homeless people cant even get shoes.

Those that prattle on endlessly about exceptionalism have never seen the downside of life. Go to the Tenderloin (Skid Row) in San Francisco... Go to the poor parts of the Carolinas that make Vietnam look like Beverly Hills.

INDIGO is on point. Exceptionalism is a myth that people in every country believe! Hard working citizens of any country do not make said country exceptional. There's NO SUCH THING... it was told to you by politicians. And your flag doesn't mean anything either. it's just a symbol. a piece of cloth... but let's not go there or some overzealous patriotic mod might ban me! And no, I'm not anti-American... I'm just anti-propaganda.

PS... Bad Religion is one of fav. bands. How Could Hell Be Any Worse? is one of the greatest punk records ever recorded, followed by SUFFER!

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Old 11-22-2020, 11:16 AM   #348
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The problem is... nothing makes a country exceptional. Nothing! Americans and their propaganda about god, free enterprise, the ability to "pull yourself up by your bootstraps." It's all BS and only works if you believe in god, have money or have bootstraps to pull yourself up from. Some homeless people cant even get shoes.
First off, I remove your "bold" font - it looks dumb and something like from the depth of Tumblr.
Second, if you don't believe that people can't pull themselves up, you are probably a lazy loser. Or just someone who never experienced a lot of problems.

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Those that prattle on endlessly about exceptionalism have never seen the downside of life. Go to the Tenderloin (Skid Row) in San Francisco... Go to the poor parts of the Carolinas that make Vietnam look like Beverly Hills.
AFAIK, those places has become dumpsters after "brave and progressive" politicians took control over those regions. The same kind of people who don't believe that people can be successful, but apparently say that you have no right to demand hobos GTFO from your part of town, because, its offensive. Never mind that those hobos produce **** and drugs.

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INDIGO is on point. Exceptionalism is a myth that people in every country believe! Hard working citizens of any country do not make said country exceptional. There's NO SUCH THING... it was told to you by politicians. And your flag doesn't mean anything either. it's just a symbol. a piece of cloth... but let's not go there or some overzealous patriotic mod might ban me! And no, I'm not anti-American... I'm just anti-propaganda.
I don't think after this post you can say anything about other people being brainwashed.
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Old 11-22-2020, 11:42 AM   #349
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First off, I remove your "bold" font - it looks dumb and something like from the depth of Tumblr.
Second, if you don't believe that people can't pull themselves up, you are probably a lazy loser. Or just someone who never experienced a lot of problems.


AFAIK, those places has become dumpsters after "brave and progressive" politicians took control over those regions. The same kind of people who don't believe that people can be successful, but apparently say that you have no right to demand hobos GTFO from your part of town, because, its offensive. Never mind that those hobos produce **** and drugs.


I don't think after this post you can say anything about other people being brainwashed.
I absolutely believe people can better their lives and pull themselves out of poverty/bad situations... I DO NOT BELIEVE that everyone has that ability. To do so, you either need some form of money, opportunity or some help from others.

As far as those regions go, every place that has experienced the depths of poverty and despair that I have talked about suffer not because of politicians, left or right, but because capitalists have outsourced jobs away from these regions. It's not politics as much as it is economics that's at fault. And DID YOU JUST GENERALIZE about homeless people and drugs? Seriously? *sigh* It's hard to take your arguments seriously when you're so ugly and hateful to the downtrodden.

And as far as being brainwashed? I'm not one who would ever drone on about the importance of patriotism, nationalism or exceptionalism, so no! I could care less about any of it... to be brainwashed, you kinda hafta pick a side and be devout in it. I haven't so. Exceptionalism is nationalist proaganda. Churchill practically invented it. Hitler spouted it. Stalin spouted it. Truman spouted it. Truly exceptional countries are countries that grant basic human rights to their citizens. Working hard does not make you exceptional... it just makes you able. Some people are not able.
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Old 11-22-2020, 04:11 PM   #350
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I absolutely believe people can better their lives and pull themselves out of poverty/bad situations... I DO NOT BELIEVE that everyone has that ability. To do so, you either need some form of money, opportunity or some help from others.
That's the point - people are not equal and some are more gifted than the others. But majority absolutely can and they don't need to be millionaires or Noble winners.
I don't mean that everyone can become "filthy rich", but well off? Yes, I think most people absolutely can do it.

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As far as those regions go, every place that has experienced the depths of poverty and despair that I have talked about suffer not because of politicians, left or right, but because capitalists have outsourced jobs away from these regions. It's not politics as much as it is economics that's at fault. And DID YOU JUST GENERALIZE about homeless people and drugs? Seriously? *sigh* It's hard to take your arguments seriously when you're so ugly and hateful to the downtrodden.
OK, so you acknowledge that those areas has become bad, because, rich outsourced jobs, yet, you are against Trump, who wanted and returned some of the jobs back (to US)? Is that right?
I am just trying to penetrate your logic.

Also, I don't see what exactly my opinion on "downtrodden" has anything to do with anything. A lot of those people are victims, yes, but most of them continue to be victims, even if they have an opportunity to rise above their situation. This victim mentality, coupled with their arrogance and more often than not, ties to criminal elements, makes me wary of supporting so called "downtrodden".
They need support, but preferably from psychologists and only then - from people with money.

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And as far as being brainwashed? I'm not one who would ever drone on about the importance of patriotism, nationalism or exceptionalism, so no! I could care less about any of it... to be brainwashed, you kinda hafta pick a side and be devout in it. I haven't so. Exceptionalism is nationalist proaganda. Churchill practically invented it. Hitler spouted it. Stalin spouted it. Truman spouted it. Truly exceptional countries are countries that grant basic human rights to their citizens. Working hard does not make you exceptional... it just makes you able. Some people are not able.
You are missing the point.
First, most people are able. It should not be even a point, unless you have a country full of disabled people.

Second, "working hard" is not about just working hard.

It is about getting a sufficient reward for your efforts. In many countries, no matter what you do, you will never be able to move up the status ladder. You will be working most of your life in the same place for the same payment, occasionally getting some rewards for your "devoted service". And that's it - no perspectives, no opportunities.

In US and most of the Western world you can actually move up.
Heck, we are on the site about two guys who became millionaires, even though they didn't make any kind of technological revolution or anything.

In US you can risk and you can fail. But you can be win as well. This is why its sometimes called "land of opportunities". And this is why a lot of people are trying to get into US. Not just to listen to propaganda (and it is strong), but because, US has lots of examples of people who made themselves, either through the hard work or because they were in the right place and time.
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Old 11-22-2020, 04:40 PM   #351
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Yeah, that's pretty much it. Individual circumstances are a variable and they matter to a POINT, but the key word is "opportunity". The opportunity to overcome one's circumstances and rise above one's station exists in America like nowhere else in the world, and that's what I was trying to put over before. In some cases, that "opportunity" is directly related to how much an individual is willing to personally sacrifice in pursuit of that opportunity, but it nonetheless exists. Some people might argue that the expected sacrifices are too great but that's an entirely separate conversation.

In theory, I could sell off all my possessions tomorrow and put that money towards a law degree. I'm not going to, but nobody but me is stopping me. One could argue "You shouldn't have to do all that just for that," and I'd agree. But if I choose to do that, it would improve my station in life, without question. Would I be happier? Probably not, at least until I made enough money to hopefully buy back everything I'd sold off to pay for the degree. That's a thing many people have done. Or I could take that money, have someone invest it for me and end up with a few hundred grand in the bank like our buddy Cubed. I CHOOSE not to do these things, but I CAN, is the point. The opportunity exists for me to take steps to rise above where "fate" or "destiny" has placed me, and I can in turn CHOOSE to play the cards I'm dealt OR roll the dice a bit and see where else it leads.

In SO many other parts of the world, you don't even get that choice, and that's what I love about this place. You can, in theory, earn as much or as little money as you want, depending on what you pursue. You're not stuck as a baker or a bootblack just because that's what your father was. You don't have to stay living where "they" stick you. You can go beyond, you can rise above. Again, in theory. Does it take a lot of sacrifice? Oftentimes yes. Does it sometimes seem like more than it should be? Definitely. Does it help to have a safety net or friends in high places? Absolutely, absolutely. But despite what it may seem, it is not absolutely impossible to move ahead otherwise. Again, things like major health or disability factors can play a huge role. But for MOST people, the sky is ostensibly the limit based on how much they're willing to gamble versus how much they're hoping to get back.

Like I was getting at before, look at a guy like Roddy Piper. Born in Canada, ran away from home around age 13 because his Dad, a cop, was beating on him. Lived on the streets and in and out of youth hostels for his entire teens, had no place else to go. Gradually made his way to the U.S. Spent many nights sleeping in filthy alleys on wet newspaper, fighting off grown men with knives who wanted that cardboard box bed of his and were ready and willing to cut him up to get it. All he knew was fighting, literally fighting for his life, so he got into amateur boxing and with very little formal training became a Golden Gloves Champion. Needed money one day, so someone said they'd pay him $15 to wrestle Harley Race in a garage or some sh*t. Didn't know jack about wrestling but wanted a hot meal that day, so he took the match, got the sh*t kicked out of him and got pinned in 30 seconds. Figured there were worse ways to make money, so he kept wrestling. Couldn't really wrestle well, so he got attention by being an obnoxious loudmouth, started getting paid a lot of money. Before age 25, he was already notorious in both the U.S. and Mexico. By age 30, he'd appeared in movies, headlined WrestleMania against Hulk Hogan, sold out Madison Square Garden and every other arena in North America, and appeared in TV and movies. Went on to become a many-time multi-millionaire, a rather big deal in Hollywood, get married and have four kids. Even beat cancer once, although it came back and finished him off the second time, sadly. But still, not a bad f*cking run, all things considered.

Again, here's a guy who came from NOTHING, who had nothing, was mentally ill, semi-literate, unskilled, spent his entire teen years sleeping on the streets fighting off muggers and child rapists at knifepoint, and using nothing but his own two hands and his pluck turned himself into a global icon and multi-millionaire. Nobody put a silver spoon in that guy's mouth, he fought for everything he had, literally. And sure, that's one rather extreme example, but again, my point is that he DID it. He did it HERE, and he went to his grave telling anyone who'd listen how much he loved this country for that very reason, because anywhere else in the world he probably would've f*cking died before turning 18. He definitely wouldn't have become who he was. And were he still alive, he would say "If I did it, you can too, I ain't nothin' special, I just didn't let people push me around." He did a lot of work with poor, homeless and underprivileged youth for that very reason, to empower them through his own experiences and tell them "Don't let anyone ever tell you that where you're at is where you're stuck. You can put up your hands and fight until you get what you think you deserve. I did it, so can you." Which is in my opinion a very noble thing to try and give back to the world. "Teach a man to fish..." etc. etc.

The OPPORTUNITY for those kinds of Cinderella stories exists in this country moreso than anywhere else in the world, and that was ultimately my earlier point. You CAN go from sleeping on the streets to a person whose name is known by everyone the whole world over, and that opportunity simply isn't as great anywhere else as it is here.

And that, I say, is quite "exceptional".
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Old 11-22-2020, 04:50 PM   #352
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That's the point - people are not equal and some are more gifted than the others. But majority absolutely can and they don't need to be millionaires or Noble winners.
I don't mean that everyone can become "filthy rich", but well off? Yes, I think most people absolutely can do it.


OK, so you acknowledge that those areas has become bad, because, rich outsourced jobs, yet, you are against Trump, who wanted and returned some of the jobs back (to US)? Is that right?
I am just trying to penetrate your logic.

Also, I don't see what exactly my opinion on "downtrodden" has anything to do with anything. A lot of those people are victims, yes, but most of them continue to be victims, even if they have an opportunity to rise above their situation. This victim mentality, coupled with their arrogance and more often than not, ties to criminal elements, makes me wary of supporting so called "downtrodden".
They need support, but preferably from psychologists and only then - from people with money.


You are missing the point.
First, most people are able. It should not be even a point, unless you have a country full of disabled people.

Second, "working hard" is not about just working hard.

It is about getting a sufficient reward for your efforts. In many countries, no matter what you do, you will never be able to move up the status ladder. You will be working most of your life in the same place for the same payment, occasionally getting some rewards for your "devoted service". And that's it - no perspectives, no opportunities.

In US and most of the Western world you can actually move up.
Heck, we are on the site about two guys who became millionaires, even though they didn't make any kind of technological revolution or anything.

In US you can risk and you can fail. But you can be win as well. This is why its sometimes called "land of opportunities". And this is why a lot of people are trying to get into US. Not just to listen to propaganda (and it is strong), but because, US has lots of examples of people who made themselves, either through the hard work or because they were in the right place and time.
I'll concede that you make some good points here, but the problem as I see it is, opportunity is not as prevalent as either it used to be or as propaganda would have any of us believe. We cannot operate under the assumption that most people can do anything because an entire generation (the millennials) in the US do not have the opportunities that our parents (the Gen Xers) had. We used to be able to work our way through college with minimal debts, now when you exit university, you are saddled with debts the size of mortgages and no home. The most common path to homeownership in 2020 is inheritance rather than applying for mortgages because many of us cant get out from debt.

My general point is that those who are left behind (and increasingly the middle class is being left behind) are not afforded the opportunities as often as they should be to get back to where they should be in life. The safety net started under FDR and increased under Truman began being dismantled under Nixon. We don't have barely anything today except food assistance and housing assistance programs that are almost impossible to qualify for today.

I'm against Trump for many reasons, most important of which is that he belongs to the billionaire class, which has historically been the enemy of the worker, the working class and the common man. But that does not mean I am pro-Biden either. He's a warmonger, a shill for corporations, a racist and a rapist. Between the two, that's not a decision I'm prepared to make.
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Old 11-22-2020, 04:58 PM   #353
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Heck, we are on the site about two guys who became millionaires, even though they didn't make any kind of technological revolution or anything.
Well thank goodness for those rare exceptions to prove that the things that will never be reached by the majority, even when they put the work in, can in fact be reached by a tiny percentage of people. It makes all our lives so much better just knowing those few can make it. Oh wait. It doesn't.

No one cares about the heights someone else can reach if those options are out of reach for themselves. People, esp outside of the country, seem to still believe in that fabled shining beacon of hope, land of opportunity that, while it may still be an improvement for immigrants from some parts of the world, for most citizens the reality of it certainly isn't all that bright and shiny on the ground as the story claims. It has rather dimmed over a few generations.

But we're hardly the only nation where someone can reasonably be somebody. We are not that rare of an option anymore.



Problem with the 21st century is that so much of it has already been done and is being done by too many people already. Most don't get to live in some village in the 1700s where you're the one person in town that makes horseshoes or candles or whatever trade you have a talent for and are able to sell to the rest of the community and make a living. You can't be that guy who invented a simple "modern" invention and make a fortune, the easy stuff has been done. Now you need that education you can't afford -- because no one needs light bulbs invented, they need rockets to Mars -- and there's already too many people doing literally everything. Sure, there's always some minds that can come up with something new and brilliant and become a success, but most never will.

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Old 11-22-2020, 06:49 PM   #354
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I'll concede that you make some good points here, but the problem as I see it is, opportunity is not as prevalent as either it used to be or as propaganda would have any of us believe. We cannot operate under the assumption that most people can do anything because an entire generation (the millennials) in the US do not have the opportunities that our parents (the Gen Xers) had. We used to be able to work our way through college with minimal debts, now when you exit university, you are saddled with debts the size of mortgages and no home. The most common path to homeownership in 2020 is inheritance rather than applying for mortgages because many of us cant get out from debt.
I am agree that this is a problem and that it should be solved.
However, it doesn't mean that the whole idea of "land of opportunities" doesn't exist anymore. Compared to other places US is still much better option for capable people, than many other places in the world.
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Old 11-22-2020, 06:56 PM   #355
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I am agree that this is a problem and that it should be solved.
However, it doesn't mean that the whole idea of "land of opportunities" doesn't exist anymore. Compared to other places US is still much better option for capable people, than many other places in the world.
agreed. But this current generation is used to things being handed to them.
look at all these artists from tumbler getting show runner positions because they think they can draw, with no experience running a show.

Bad precedence to set....

the past generation worked for what it wanted. and what it couldn't get, it made the opportunity for it to happen. that's how I tried to get into radio. it kind of worked. I got on air in two stations in NYC, even if breifly. but none of that would have happened if I didn't have the gumption to try and make it happen. sometimes even with people we know ;o) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqY5RXKKlFw

most of today's generation of hand outs don't understand that. or have the passion.
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Old 11-22-2020, 06:58 PM   #356
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Well thank goodness for those rare exceptions to prove that the things that will never be reached by the majority, even when they put the work in, can in fact be reached by a tiny percentage of people. It makes all our lives so much better just knowing those few can make it. Oh wait. It doesn't.

No one cares about the heights someone else can reach if those options are out of reach for themselves. People, esp outside of the country, seem to still believe in that fabled shining beacon of hope, land of opportunity that, while it may still be an improvement for immigrants from some parts of the world, for most citizens the reality of it certainly isn't all that bright and shiny on the ground as the story claims. It has rather dimmed over a few generations.

But we're hardly the only nation where someone can reasonably be somebody. We are not that rare of an option anymore.
If you think you never achieve anything and few examples of people who did are proving you right, you are a loser. Simple as that. It is mentality of person who got used to be defeated and believes he always will be defeated, no matter what.

Not really sure how I can debate about success and opportunities with a person who has a mindset like that. It's like talking about beautiful smell of flowers with someone who smells sewage everywhere.

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Problem with the 21st century is that so much of it has already been done and is being done by too many people already. Most don't get to live in some village in the 1700s where you're the one person in town that makes horseshoes or candles or whatever trade you have a talent for and are able to sell to the rest of the community and make a living. You can't be that guy who invented a simple "modern" invention and make a fortune, the easy stuff has been done. Now you need that education you can't afford -- because no one needs light bulbs invented, they need rockets to Mars -- and there's already too many people doing literally everything. Sure, there's always some minds that can come up with something new and brilliant and become a success, but most never will.
Your argument would've hold true, if not for the fact that most rich and well off people throughout the history never made any super amazing historical discoveries or inventions. They were either smart with their money or at the right place and time.

So no, in order to be rich, people no need to create rockets en masse. They just, you know, need to be smart with their finance and use opportunities coming their way. It is something that doesn't even require super special education. Just generally be smart and this why they are not many rich people, because, most people are not particularly smart with their finance.
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Old 11-22-2020, 09:58 PM   #357
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It's become something of a cliche, but one I know for a fact is true because I've seen it happen more than once. Take two people, one of them already has let's say five million dollars, the other person has about $0. Give them each one million dollars and let them have at it, do whatever. 9 times out of 10, in a year's time the person who started with five million will end up with a lump sum of ten million after you gave them that "free" one million, while the other person will be back where they started with nothing. I've seen SO MANY people get literally handed large sums of money, whether it be inherited, lotto winnings, whatever, and within a year they're broke again. So it's not like you can even "level the playing field" by handing out free stuff to those people "falling behind"; they usually blow it. Could be drugs, could be lack of management and investing experience, could be they listened to bad advice, could be any number of those things. But it happens a LOT; everybody says "Man, if I won the lottery..." but go ahead and look up how many of those people win big and blow it all right away. Getting a lucky break isn't going to automatically make a person's life better or put them on par with someone else if they're just plain not wise.

It's easy to SAY, "Man, if I got the breaks That Guy got, I'd be in a totally different place and do Big Things! I'd be just FINE if I got that guy's breaks/knew his friends/etc." But statistically, that's rarely true. Lots of people do somehow get that break they spend years pining for and then screw themselves over anyway. So what does that say? It says to me that being "lucky" means very little if you're not also savvy.

- I also think some people miss the point of what they're supposed to take away when they see or hear about other people coming from "nothing" and then go on to big things. You're not supposed to cry sour grapes, and say "That ain't me so it does me no good." You're supposed to become inspired to try and apply yourself to at least attempt some level of self-improvement, IF a person is truly that dissatisfied with their current status and situation. Which again, might be easier said than done for some, but is truthfully "impossible" only for a very small few. It's up to the individual whether they do try and make a move or not, but you miss 100% of the ones you don't swing at, that's just a fact of life. "Yeah, well, I'm stuck Over Here so the fact that other people find ways to get ahead has nothing to do with me" is a pretty self-defeating attitude.

It helps to be lucky. It helps to be savvy. What helps MOST of all, though, is deciding that you're simply not going to settle for your situation anymore and deciding what exactly you're willing to risk to make it better. If what you're willing to risk is "nothing", then congratulations, you stay in exactly the same place.

Most of us just settle. But that doesn't mean that The System doesn't work, it means WE don't try and work "the system" to our favor as aggressively as we maybe ought to. To some degree, most of us are guilty of this at some point or another, myself included. But once a person gets in the habit of saying "success" is just plain out of their reach "Because Reasons", well... that simply becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. People really should not do this.

Some people win and some people lose, and some people win without trying and some people try their best but still lose. That's the game we call "Life". But the one thing that's for certain is that nobody ever "made it" on a "Can't Win/Don't Try" attitude.
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Old 11-22-2020, 10:03 PM   #358
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It's become something of a cliche, but one I know for a fact is true because I've seen it happen more than once. Take two people, one of them already has let's say five million dollars, the other person has about $0. Give them each one million dollars and let them have at it, do whatever. 9 times out of 10, in a year's time the person who started with five million will end up with a lump sum of ten million after you gave them that "free" one million, while the other person will be back where they started with nothing. I've seen SO MANY people get literally handed large sums of money, whether it be inherited, lotto winnings, whatever, and within a year they're broke again. So it's not like you can even "level the playing field" by handing out free stuff to those people "falling behind"; they usually blow it. Could be drugs, could be lack of management and investing experience, could be they listened to bad advice, could be any number of those things. But it happens a LOT; everybody says "Man, if I won the lottery..." but go ahead and look up how many of those people win big and blow it all right away. Getting a lucky break isn't going to automatically make a person's life better or put them on par with someone else if they're just plain not wise.

It's easy to SAY, "Man, if I got the breaks That Guy got, I'd be in a totally different place and do Big Things! I'd be just FINE if I got that guy's breaks/knew his friends/etc." But statistically, that's rarely true. Lots of people do somehow get that break they spend years pining for and then screw themselves over anyway. So what does that say? It says to me that being "lucky" means very little if you're not also savvy.

- I also think some people miss the point of what they're supposed to take away when they see or hear about other people coming from "nothing" and then go on to big things. You're not supposed to cry sour grapes, and say "That ain't me so it does me no good." You're supposed to become inspired to try and apply yourself to at least attempt some level of self-improvement, IF a person is truly that dissatisfied with their current status and situation. Which again, might be easier said than done for some, but is truthfully "impossible" only for a very small few. It's up to the individual whether they do try and make a move or not, but you miss 100% of the ones you don't swing at, that's just a fact of life. "Yeah, well, I'm stuck Over Here so the fact that other people find ways to get ahead has nothing to do with me" is a pretty self-defeating attitude.

It helps to be lucky. It helps to be savvy. What helps MOST of all, though, is deciding that you're simply not going to settle for your situation anymore and deciding what you're willing to risk to make it better.

Most of us just settle. But that doesn't mean that The System doesn't work, it means WE don't try and work "the system" to our favor as aggressively as we maybe ought to. To some degree, most of us are guilty of this at some point or another, myself included. But once a person gets in the habit of saying "success" is just plain out of their reach "Because Reasons", well... that simply becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. People really should not do this.

Some people win and some people lose, and some people win without trying and some people try their best but still lose. That's the game we call "Life". But the one thing that's for certain is that nobody ever "made it" on a "Can't Win/Don't Try" attitude.
If I had a MILLION... i would literally fix up my home, and budget... and retire! A comics budget, a used car, health insurance and just rarely leave... i would be Cybercubed. That would be my life! The End!
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Old 11-22-2020, 10:11 PM   #359
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^^^^ that was a joke... not really sure what I'd do with a million. probably help homeless people. build a community garden. start a food bank for the poor. bail out activists who have been arrested and pay their legal fees. I could do a lot!
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Old 11-22-2020, 10:16 PM   #360
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I'd most likely piss it away on games, comics, toys, weed, Guinness, and a fully-functional Ecto-1. But at least I admit that.

That's a big reason how I know mu'fukka's generally gonna blow their free lunch if it ever comes their way. Cuz it's also me. I'm also mu'fukka's.
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