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Old 08-10-2017, 01:18 PM   #101
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sounds like a challenge to me . and no using toon images where you can tell b y the voice, either .
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Old 08-10-2017, 01:45 PM   #102
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sounds like a challenge to me . and no using toon images where you can tell b y the voice, either .
After awhile in Mirage just reading a certain Turtle's dialogue would help you out. right around the Leo One-shot I could guess who was talking and who wasn't. I believe only Don & Leo had their mask on?
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Old 08-10-2017, 01:59 PM   #103
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It wasn't designed to be that. It became that on the side, for this:

https://ak3.picdn.net/shutterstock/v...93/thumb/6.jpg
For all the complaints people like you have about the 80s cartoon just existing to make money you guys never seem to consider that every single iteration of TMNT has done just that, the difference being the FW cartoon did it the best. Any time someone says that it sounds completely hypocritical.

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Oh great, another one of these people... Are you done not really understanding the issue here or are you gonna keep creating strawmen?
What, another one of those who thinks the FW cartoon is worthy of the TMNT name? I'm glad you aren't a spokesperson for the franchise neatoman because with you in charge no fan would be allowed to like anything except your IDW comic!

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A glorified toy commercial on a low budget and tight schedule from an era when writers admittedly got first draft scripts produced, despite only having punched them out in a few hours? Sure, doesn't say a lot but sure, it's "good" for being that.
I think you need to get some perspective on this. Your complaining and damning a cartoon that not only is guilty of making money like any other TMNT iteration but also wasn't designed strictly just to be a toy commercial. You are over exaggerating your argument. Every SINGLE cartoon ever has been to make money. You want an actual example of a cartoon that was a glorified to commercial? The Transformers. That show was designed to be a toy commercial. The FW cartoon had plots, Transformers didn't, it was about showing all the robots you could buy in the shops. The TMNT cartoon had a variety of storytelling, Transformers was the same plot every episode with very little variety. You have absolutely no perspective in looking at this objectively and you sound weird to anyone who knows anything about animation when you starting moaning about cartoons being toy commercials.

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I'm also glad that I don't judge things by 'nostalgia glasses'. if it was good in the 40s, it's still good today even if I never saw it before. Do many people think you're nostalgia ridden for liking the Three Stooges? No...it's just good work that still works even today. same can be said for something like Fred Wolf.
In university one of the film assistants I knew said he loved watching little kids TV shows. I asked him why because it's for little kids and he was like in his mid-30s. He said little kids shows were genius because they are so inventive. This kind of thing about not liking something because it's old reminds me of people who can't watch black and white movies because hey they're not in colour so they can't be any good right? Been rewatching the 70s Incredible Hulk series, the writing blows most modern TV out of the water but that can't be true because it was made in the 70s right?

My point is that the people who really understand film and TV are able to appreciate and take interest in any TV or film from any period. When people like the above say TV is better today what they're essentially saying is "TV today is better because it's new" not realising in fifteen years to come it'll date as much as the FW TMNT cartoon. Whether something old holds up isn't up to nostalgia but perspective and judgement based on what was contemporary during that time and whether it was well written. Of course if neatoman reads this in two weeks time he will forget this and go back to his usual "but the FW cartoon was a glorified toy commercial..." rubbish.
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Old 08-11-2017, 12:20 AM   #104
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Oh great, another one of these people... Are you done not really understanding the issue here or are you gonna keep creating strawmen?
What issue? Crying fanboys, who believe that their "one and only true vision of the franchise" was desecrated by "evul" businessmen is not an issue. They are annoyance at best. Not worthy of attention at worst.

I too can play snob and pretend that something-something ruined my imaginary vision of the series, underhandedly implying that my vision is superior to everyone else's, which is what this whole discussion is about.

I just not really that egotistic to turn it into debate "my taste vs taste of everyone else". But if you find it fun, please, continue.

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A glorified toy commercial on a low budget and tight schedule from an era when writers admittedly got first draft scripts produced, despite only having punched them out in a few hours? Sure, doesn't say a lot but sure, it's "good" for being that.
Every modern product aimed at children (and young teenagers) is a toy commercial in one shape or another. I don't see what so bad about 80-s TMNT being one of them.

It's not high art, but no-one pretends it to be one. Well, except for the Mirage purists who, believe, that people who genuinely like 80-s cartoon, somehow see it akin to some kind of supermegahyperquality show.

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It's not "bad," it's just apocryphal
Aside from maybe dozen people, no-one gives a flying toss whether it's "apocryphal" or not.
Such statements would've been fit discussion about some high literature, not about some underground comic book, which accidentally became popular due to generic 80-s cartoon.

Also, every single version of TMNT largely existed only to make money from franchise. So, singling out 80-s cartoon like it was a sole product made for money, but conveniently ignoring that every other iteration of the TMNT, including comic books themselves, were not made only for fun and "thank you"s, is faulty at best. Fanboish at worst. But considering the topic of the discussion...yeah.
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Old 08-11-2017, 12:24 AM   #105
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Aside from maybe dozen people, no-one gives a flying toss whether it's "apocryphal" or not.
That's fine. Enjoy your endless toddler fare. I don't begrudge it... it's just not what TMNT was created to be. What TMNT was created to be worked quite well and sparked a multi-billion dollar empire. I think we ought to reconsider what aspects of it should be focused on (or at least be open to allowing multiple spectrums of fans as before, rather than just one... as is, there is presently no incarnation of Nick TMNT that you can "grow into"... it is something you will outgrow unless you're just a hardcore FW nostalgiac, by design now), especially with so many of the Fred Wolf clones and wannabes failing of late.

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So, singling out 80-s cartoon like it was a sole product made for money,
It was. But why wouldn't it be? It wasn't ever pretending to be high art. It was kiddy fare and parent bait to buy Little Tommy lots of different versions of Leonardo toys.

Still, can't hate. It's a gateway drug and all. The trouble now is, for the new generation of kids, it doesn't matter which Nick-led TMNT version you pick now... it's not much of a gateway drug into anything. They're all samish. For the same crowd. The same "homages" and the same FW worshipping.

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but conveniently ignoring that every other iteration of the TMNT, including comic books themselves, were not made only for fun and "thank you"s, is faulty at best. Fanboish at worst. But considering the topic of the discussion...yeah.
What?

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Old 08-11-2017, 05:07 AM   #106
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What issue? Crying fanboys, who believe that their "one and only true vision of the franchise" was desecrated by "evul" businessmen is not an issue. They are annoyance at best. Not worthy of attention at worst.

I too can play snob and pretend that something-something ruined my imaginary vision of the series, underhandedly implying that my vision is superior to everyone else's, which is what this whole discussion is about.

I just not really that egotistic to turn it into debate "my taste vs taste of everyone else". But if you find it fun, please, continue.
But wouldn't you rather have something driven by creativity than marketing departments?


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Every modern product aimed at children (and young teenagers) is a toy commercial in one shape or another. I don't see what so bad about 80-s TMNT being one of them.

It's not high art, but no-one pretends it to be one. Well, except for the Mirage purists who, believe, that people who genuinely like 80-s cartoon, somehow see it akin to some kind of supermegahyperquality show.
Well there's that one guy who claims it's objectively one of the better incarnations but let's not talk about him.

Anyway, being a toy commercial still isn't reason enough to not at least try to have meaning, try to be an actual adaptation, try to be impressive, etc. The toy commercial aspect isn't charming but it doesn't mean it's a license to excuse the bad animation or writing.


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Aside from maybe dozen people, no-one gives a flying toss whether it's "apocryphal" or not.
Such statements would've been fit discussion about some high literature, not about some underground comic book, which accidentally became popular due to generic 80-s cartoon.
Well the comic was popular before the cartoon and being an underground comic isn't reason enough to try and distance it from high literature.

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Also, every single version of TMNT largely existed only to make money from franchise. So, singling out 80-s cartoon like it was a sole product made for money, but conveniently ignoring that every other iteration of the TMNT, including comic books themselves, were not made only for fun and "thank you"s, is faulty at best. Fanboish at worst. But considering the topic of the discussion...yeah.
But you understand that there's a difference between "buy the next issue to see what happens next" and "let's show you this grey ball with forks sticking out of it over and over again, you can nag your parents into buying a flimsy plastic representation of it at your local Toys R Us for only $49.99!", right? There's a difference between making money through talent and making money underhandedly.

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Still, can't hate. It's a gateway drug and all. The trouble now is, for the new generation of kids, it doesn't matter which Nick-led TMNT version you pick now... it's not much of a gateway drug into anything. They're all samish. For the same crowd. The same "homages" and the same FW worshipping.
Right, kids stuff that lead into kids stuff.
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Old 08-11-2017, 07:53 AM   #107
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Not the best guy (Trompas) to perpetuate any point of view
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Old 08-11-2017, 02:14 PM   #108
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That's fine. Enjoy your endless toddler fare. I don't begrudge it... it's just not what TMNT was created to be. What TMNT was created to be worked quite well and sparked a multi-billion dollar empire. I think we ought to reconsider what aspects of it should be focused on (or at least be open to allowing multiple spectrums of fans as before, rather than just one... as is, there is presently no incarnation of Nick TMNT that you can "grow into"... it is something you will outgrow unless you're just a hardcore FW nostalgiac, by design now), especially with so many of the Fred Wolf clones and wannabes failing of late.
I will enjoy it, don't worry, because, I am not wannabe snob with imagination problems who thinks that comedies are somehow beyond him.

No-one cares what TMNT was created to be. And your words, salt and such topics only prove it further.

TMNT which worked well and sparked a multi-million empire was..."a toddler fare"!! Not gritty dark comic book, which ended up in relative obscurity at best. Not 2k3 series, which was as close to the gritty as TV could allow cartoon at the time to be. Even original movie nowadays looked upon as mediocre at best, and when people think of Turtles they think of original cartoon or Nick series. Why? Because, that what works with franchise the best.

For multiple spectrum of fans there is an IDW comic books (which also relatively obscure for most people), but since in the view of Mirage fanboys there are plagued by "evul decease of FW cartoon" they don't count.

The point being, several times, various people attempted to make a more serious take on the TMNT formula. But all of them are either were quickly forgotten or landed in obscurity. So, obvious conclusion here is obvious. People like TMNT best, when it's a comedy show and not dark and gritty frama. That what WORKS. And that what brings money.

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What?
What?

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But wouldn't you rather have something driven by creativity than marketing departments?
Every popular series driven by marketing decisions. It doesn't mean that they are robbed out of creativity. Otherwise, all series from the 80-s would've been as popular as TMNT and Transformers. But look at that - most of them were quickly forgotten or were obscure even back in the 80-s.

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Anyway, being a toy commercial still isn't reason enough to not at least try to have meaning, try to be an actual adaptation, try to be impressive, etc. The toy commercial aspect isn't charming but it doesn't mean it's a license to excuse the bad animation or writing.
It was different time when trying to make faithful adaptation of TMNT wouldn't work, unless it was anime or some underground cartoon series (if those even exist).
Even now making a full scale TMNT series based on original comic books would've been rather difficult. 2k3 was the closest (and, IMO, the best incarnation of TMNT out there) and it compromised on number of things. And as I said before, if TMNT 80-s was not impressive it would've been forgotten as many-many other cartoons for that time.

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Well the comic was popular before the cartoon and being an underground comic isn't reason enough to try and distance it from high literature.
What?

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Originally Posted by neatoman View Post
But you understand that there's a difference between "buy the next issue to see what happens next" and "let's show you this grey ball with forks sticking out of it over and over again, you can nag your parents into buying a flimsy plastic representation of it at your local Toys R Us for only $49.99!", right? There's a difference between making money through talent and making money underhandedly.
But do you understand that if TMNT 80-s was just that, than it would never become a hit with anyone, no?

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Right, kids stuff that lead into kids stuff.
Because it is what works. As was proven time and time again. But fanboys prefer not to see reality. It's "everyone are stupid, but me" or "some injustice of cosmic proportions".
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Old 08-12-2017, 08:49 AM   #109
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TMNT which worked well and sparked a multi-million empire was..."a toddler fare"!! Not gritty dark comic book, which ended up in relative obscurity at best.
That's not entirely true. The cartoon only got made because the comic book was a success in the first place. The comic didn't really lose traction until after the cartoon came out when Eastman and Laird became too busy to write and draw it themselves, leaving it to guest artists for years. Also, Indie-comics purists wrote them off as "sell outs" at that point. But, before that point, Mirage TMNT was the hot new title in the stores, and the cartoon and toy deal wouldn't have happened without that status. Toy companies don't randomly search the comic stores for obscure failed titles. TMNT got their attention by being a hit.

The reason it seems "obscure" compared to the show is mainly because TV shows simply reach much more people than comic books do (and for that matter color comic books that get sold at grocery stores reach more people than direct market black and white books). It's part of a more "niche" medium, but "niche" isn't the same as "failure".

Anyway, which version you like better is a matter of taste, and there's nothing wrong with liking the FW version more. It doesn't make you "stupid" or a "Baby" or anything like that. Personally, I still find it entertaining from time to time (though I lost a bit of respect for it after reading that arrogant David Wise interview, and finding out about a certain lawsuit), though I prefer more serious versions these days. It's a perfectly fun show. But, it does annoy me when it's hardcore fans claim TMNT's success begins and ends with the FW and write off Mirage as some "failed prototype" when FW wouldn't have been there to rock the mainsteam if Mirage hadn't had such an impact on the admittedly more niche medium of indie comics.

As for FW TMNT's success being a "tragedy", I wouldn't say that. I'm not even sure the Mirage comics are all that "obscure" these days. Most of my comic/anime/gamer/etc. friends (and not just hardcore TMNT fans) are at least aware of it and some even have a few issues. IDW's reprints are doing well and keeping it not just on the comics store shelves, but in bookstores and other such places as well. "Did you know TMNT was based on a dark comic book?" tops any "interesting facts" "listicle" about TMNT, and is usually met with "yeah, duh" comments. I think the 4Kids show and all the internet discussion surrounding how it's closer to the comics is to thank for the higher Mirage awareness these days.

While Mirage purists write off Nick TMNT and sometimes IDW TMNT as "FW Nostalgia" they are really more like blends of all the previous versions including Mirage, they still include Mirage characters like Karai, Renet, Honeycutt, and the Triceretons, and their takes on Mirage story elements like fleeing to Northampton, Return to NY, and City at War, etc. They do have a lot of FW/Archie/Playmates characters in them too, but those versions have a much bigger cast of characters to offer than Mirage did.

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Old 08-12-2017, 10:24 AM   #110
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That's not entirely true. The cartoon only got made because the comic book was a success in the first place. The comic didn't really lose traction until after the cartoon came out when Eastman and Laird became too busy to write and draw it themselves, leaving it to guest artists for years. Also, Indie-comics purists wrote them off as "sell outs" at that point. But, before that point, Mirage TMNT was the hot new title in the stores, and the cartoon and toy deal wouldn't have happened without that status. Toy companies don't randomly search the comic stores for obscure failed titles. TMNT got their attention by being a hit.

The reason it seems "obscure" compared to the show is mainly because TV shows simply reach much more people than comic books do (and for that matter color comic books that get sold at grocery stores reach more people than direct market black and white books). It's part of a more "niche" medium, but "niche" isn't the same as "failure".

Anyway, which version you like better is a matter of taste, and there's nothing wrong with liking the FW version more. It doesn't make you "stupid" or a "Baby" or anything like that. Personally, I still find it entertaining from time to time (though I lost a bit of respect for it after reading that arrogant David Wise interview, and finding out about a certain lawsuit), though I prefer more serious versions these days. It's a perfectly fun show. But, it does annoy me when it's hardcore fans claim TMNT's success begins and ends with the FW and write off Mirage as some "failed prototype" when FW wouldn't have been there to rock the mainsteam if Mirage hadn't had such an impact on the admittedly more niche medium of indie comics.

As for FW TMNT's success being a "tragedy", I wouldn't say that. I'm not even sure the Mirage comics are all that "obscure" these days. Most of my comic/anime/gamer/etc. friends (and not just hardcore TMNT fans) are at least aware of it and some even have a few issues. IDW's reprints are doing well and keeping it not just on the comics store shelves, but in bookstores and other such places as well. "Did you know TMNT was based on a dark comic book?" tops any "interesting facts" "listicle" about TMNT, and is usually met with "yeah, duh" comments. While Mirage purists write off Nick TMNT and sometimes IDW TMNT as "FW Nostalgia" they are really more like blends of all the previous versions including Mirage, they still include Mirage characters like Karai, Renet, Honeycutt, and the Triceretons, and their takes on Mirage story elements like fleeing to Northampton, Return to NY, and City at War, etc. They do have a lot of FW/Archie/Playmates characters in them too, but those versions have a much bigger cast of characters to offer than Mirage did. I think the 4Kids show and all the internet discussion surrounding how it's closer to the comics is to thank for the higher Mirage awareness these days.
That and as of this week IDW are on their, what? Fourth format they're printing up the original issue in? Pretty sure that between the Visual History bonus and the upccoming TPB version of the Ultimate Collection, that makes six formats you can get that issue in alone since 2011. So you know, the Mirage Studios comics can't be that obscure or niche if they keep getting published in various formats.
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Old 08-12-2017, 11:38 AM   #111
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Yeah, so really the FW cartoon isn't such a "tragedy" since the Mirage comics are doing fine. They're easier to come by than ever before, since IDW gives them a wider distribution than Mirage themselves ever did. Comic/Animation fans are well aware of it even if their childhood memories are more of the FW version. Really, I think the people that aren't aware of Mirage are usually the people who haven't given TMNT much of a thought since childhood anyway.

And, the FW toon is doing fine too, easy to find on DVD for anyone who wants it, so there's really no reason to pit them against each other any more. TMNT is a dish that comes in a variety of flavors. And, the existence of chocolate doesn't take anything away from strawberry.

If any "tragedy" came from FW TMNT, it's that it would have been nice to see a more consistant Mirage TMNT that we may have gotten had Eastman and Laird been able to focus on the comic instead of having to leave it to guest artists and staffers. But, who knows what we would have got? Mirage is what it is. The "guest era" is an interesting time in it's history, and staffers like Murphy, Lawson, Dooney, etc. did a fine job even if continuity is a total mess.

Some "closer to Mirage" adaptations would be nice, but there's always the comics themselves. Comics are treated as the first step toward a show or movie so much these days, I think people forget that they're a legit medium in of themselves.
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Old 08-12-2017, 11:52 AM   #112
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This thread needs to be locked. The OP was a troll who got banned too.
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Old 08-12-2017, 10:51 PM   #113
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Nice to know that cubed still has his catch phrase after I've been gone for awhile
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Old 08-13-2017, 02:52 AM   #114
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This thread needs to be locked. The OP was a troll who got banned too.
The creator had probably enjoyed reading this.
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Old 08-13-2017, 07:08 AM   #115
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The creator had probably enjoyed reading this.
Considering the creator was one of the forums' most infamous members, that isn't surprising, unfortunately.
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Old 08-14-2017, 07:42 AM   #116
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This thread needs to be locked. The OP was a troll who got banned too.
Second that motion
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Old 08-17-2017, 04:34 PM   #117
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Still, can't hate. It's a gateway drug and all. The trouble now is, for the new generation of kids, it doesn't matter which Nick-led TMNT version you pick now... it's not much of a gateway drug into anything. They're all samish. For the same crowd. The same "homages" and the same FW worshipping.
Andrew you have to consider that all the FW worshipping in the Nick series is because the 80s cartoon managed to leave more an imprint on their memories than the Mirage or live action movies did when they were younger. They can't be blamed for not liking what you like.

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But wouldn't you rather have something driven by creativity than marketing departments?
But it was creative.

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Well there's that one guy who claims it's objectively one of the better incarnations but let's not talk about him.
Not sure if you mean me but my opinion has always been that it has as many pros and cons as other iterations of TMNT including your IDW comic. I never said it was better than everything else, just to be clear on this. It did stuff better creatively but no more or less than any other iteration.

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The toy commercial aspect isn't charming but it doesn't mean it's a license to excuse the bad animation or writing.
Again for like the fourth time I need to remind you it was a syndicated series produced by an independent animation studio. I think we're lucky to get the amount episodes we did. Don't get greedy about that type of thing. Also the show was set up to be written a specific way, i.e. not like IDW, 4Kids etc.

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I just not really that egotistic to turn it into debate "my taste vs taste of everyone else". But if you find it fun, please, continue.
I really never got that kind of mentality about TMNT. It sounds pretentious.

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Also, every single version of TMNT largely existed only to make money from franchise. So, singling out 80-s cartoon like it was a sole product made for money, but conveniently ignoring that every other iteration of the TMNT, including comic books themselves, were not made only for fun and "thank you"s, is faulty at best. Fanboish at worst. But considering the topic of the discussion...yeah.
Thank you! I never said the FW series was the best cartoon ever made but it sure is as worthy for respect as any other iterations. Even the more character/story developed arcs of newer iterations are missing something better than the 80s cartoon did.

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But, it does annoy me when it's hardcore fans claim TMNT's success begins and ends with the FW and write off Mirage as some "failed prototype" when FW wouldn't have been there to rock the mainsteam if Mirage hadn't had such an impact on the admittedly more niche medium of indie comics.
Who says that? I must be on the wrong part of the forum.

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I will enjoy it, don't worry, because, I am not wannabe snob with imagination problems who thinks that comedies are somehow beyond him.
You can't please everybody. If Andrew had his way everything TMNT would have to be Mirage based and written by Kevin and Peter. God knows how neatoman will cope when his precious IDW comic comes to a close one day. The point is we can respect everybody's own TMNT. Being purist or just loyal to one iteration while dismissing other stuff is what turns people on this forum off.

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Every popular series driven by marketing decisions. It doesn't mean that they are robbed out of creativity. Otherwise, all series from the 80-s would've been as popular as TMNT and Transformers. But look at that - most of them were quickly forgotten or were obscure even back in the 80-s.
I get frustrated when neatoman says stuff like that because he wasn't even alive when there were 80s cartoons on TV. He doesn't know the competition or lasting legacy of most of them, what they did right or wrong. He thinks the FW series was just about making money when Fred Wolf himself said in an interview that he wanted to steer clear of that unlike Transformers which was just a toy commercial! People like him just need some perspective on this era of animation because TMNT certainly was nowhere near the worst.

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Originally Posted by Sumac View Post
But fanboys prefer not to see reality. It's "everyone are stupid, but me" or "some injustice of cosmic proportions".
The irony is that fanboys like anything can't totally agree on what is the best. But they are are the most prominent members so they take over the forums while shouting everybody else down.

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This thread needs to be locked. The OP was a troll who got banned too.
Agreed. A topic like this just brings out the Fred Wolf series haters to repeat the same old invalid comments about 'kids cartoons' and 'cheap toy commercials'.
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Old 08-19-2017, 09:09 AM   #118
Tetsu Deinonychus
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Andrew you have to consider that all the FW worshipping in the Nick series is because the 80s cartoon managed to leave more an imprint on their memories than the Mirage or live action movies did when they were younger. They can't be blamed for not liking what you like.
I kinda feel like some of it is also because the last series was so Mirage based and had an embargo on FW characters that this version is bringing back everyone that didn't get a chance to come back last time. I hope future iterations will be more "choosey", not having a ban on characters from any particular version, but not feeling the need to bring back everyone either, just the characters that fit what they're doing.

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Not sure if you mean me but my opinion has always been that it has as many pros and cons as other iterations of TMNT including your IDW comic. I never said it was better than everything else, just to be clear on this. It did stuff better creatively but no more or less than any other iteration.
It's fair to say that all versions have their ups and downs.

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Who says that? I must be on the wrong part of the forum.
In this case, I'd say Sumac did...
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Originally Posted by Sumac View Post
TMNT which worked well and sparked a multi-million empire was..."a toddler fare"!! Not gritty dark comic book, which ended up in relative obscurity at best.
...but it's a sentiment I see on this forum fairly often. The "FW made TMNT a success and it would be nothing without it" crowd is the other side of the coin from the "TMNT should always be like Mirage because that came first" crowd and just as bothersome. It goes both ways.

But, I don't see a need for either attitude at this point. Both versions are iconic to TMNT history, and both are easily available. Current TMNT isn't really either, but draws from both. And, it says something about TMNT as a concept that (like Batman) it can be handled in many different ways and still be TMNT.


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You can't please everybody. If Andrew had his way everything TMNT would have to be Mirage based and written by Kevin and Peter. God knows how neatoman will cope when his precious IDW comic comes to a close one day. The point is we can respect everybody's own TMNT. Being purist or just loyal to one iteration while dismissing other stuff is what turns people on this forum off.
Agreed. I'm just saying it's not just Mirage purists who do it.

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Originally Posted by pferreira View Post
Agreed. A topic like this just brings out the Fred Wolf series haters to repeat the same old invalid comments about 'kids cartoons' and 'cheap toy commercials'.
...and FW fanboys saying "TMNT succeeded because of FW". But, yeah. It is a shame though that we can't discuss the differences and similarities and pros and cons in an intelligent and polite way. But, I guess a thread that starts off with denouncing FW TMNT as "The Greatest Tragedy of All" isn't the place to do it.

For the record, here's my two cents. Without FW TMNT likely wouldn't be a multi-million dollar mega-franchise, but it would likely have still been a popular comic series, so unless you think Cerebus, Sandman, or Bone are "nothing" because they don't (as far as I know) have TV or film adaptations, TMNT wouldn't have been "nothing" either. And, who knows, like how Hellboy and Preacher came to movies and TV (respectively) after years of existence in comics, TMNT could have eventually made it to the big or small screen (and made E&L some serious cash) anyway.
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