derangment syndrome

[Voltron]

I think that's why the GOP waited until the Dems took the House to really ramp this up.

This is Trump's signature promise, and it's almost impossible to make this happen without ruining a lot of American lives. It'll cut through private property, it'll cost a ton of money to build and maintain, and it'll most likely be ineffective in stopping drug trafficking across the border.

In short: it's a huge political gamble with very little pay off.

The GOP had two years of practically uncontested power to make policy, and they sat on their hands. I think they all breathed a sigh of relief when they lost the House. Now the GOP can play the "overly concerned but powerless" rebels who only want to stop the 80's cartoon villain of the Democratic Party.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

See, that's one of the biggest issues I have with it. My state has the single longest border with Mexico, but MOST of that border is- a RIVER!!! I mean, we already have a frigging natural MOAT, and one used extensively by wildlife on BOTH sides as a source of food, water, commute, etc, but now for some reason he wants to muck that up by screwing with the watershed to build a wall that isn't even needed. To say nothing of farmers and ranchers on either side that rely on that same river for their livelihood. And that's just the start. Voltron mentioned the imminant domain issue, which I've noticed has hardly even been discussed by the feds AT ALL. Too many people would actually be HURT by this. Not to mention the environmental damage, the wasted money and resources to put this eyesore up, and the fact that not one, but SEVERAL historical sites and national parks will be irreparably damaged or destroyed. Yeah, we in the border states do NOT want/need this crap. (Dispite what the resident conservatives will tell you- they have just all drunk the Trump-Aid of border invasion panic.)

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by Voltron

and it'll most likely be ineffective in stopping drug trafficking across the border.

Exactly... I saw a post elsewhere a day or two ago where someone (a wall supporter) included a link to an article and went on about this supposedly biggest ever drug bust at the border and, according to this individual, this is why we supposedly need the wall.

And then he/she failed to recognize or mention that it was in fact a tractor trailer coming through the port of entry that was busted, as so many supposedly do, not someone trying to secretly cross with a big bag of drugs slung across their back, so what is a bigger wall even going to change in that scenario?

Not to mention the 'security tool' that ultimately busted the truck was as cheap and low tech as you can get...a dog.

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

See, that's one of the biggest issues I have with it. My state has the single longest border with Mexico, but MOST of that border is- a RIVER!!! I mean, we already have a frigging natural MOAT, and one used extensively by wildlife on BOTH sides as a source of food, water, commute, etc, but now for some reason he wants to muck that up by screwing with the watershed to build a wall that isn't even needed. To say nothing of farmers and ranchers on either side that rely on that same river for their livelihood. And that's just the start. Voltron mentioned the imminent domain issue, which I've noticed has hardly even been discussed by the feds AT ALL. Too many people would actually be HURT by this. Not to mention the environmental damage, the wasted money and resources to put this eyesore up, and the fact that not one, but SEVERAL historical sites and national parks will be irreparably damaged or destroyed. Yeah, we in the border states do NOT want/need this crap. (Dispite what the resident conservatives will tell you- they have just all drunk the Trump-Aid of border invasion panic.)

Yeah, messing with all that just sounds like it's asking for big trouble.


It's funny how quite a few years ago imminent domain was one of the hot button terms and, naturally, considered a bad thing. But now it's okay for this... Strange.

[Andrew NDB]

It's kind of like if I wanted to send my kid to soccer camp and her mom said, "No, we can't afford it." And I say to her, "Are you sure? It costs $20 a month and we spend $300 a month on eating out and going to the movies." She says, "Nope, can't afford it." "But she might get a little better at soccer." "No, she won't." "What? How do you know that?" "I just do." So I say, "OK, well how about a different less expensive soccer camp?" "Nope, soccer camp is immoral." "Wait, I thought it was the cost?" "It's the cost, too." "Well damn... do YOU have any ideas about how she can get better at soccer?" And she puts her hands on her hips and goes, "We're not talking about this."

And on and on. It's very dumb, by the way.

[Leo656]

Christ, Dante, your poetry is epic. That's what we in the "biz" call, "a stiff jab".

I only popped so hard because I've literally seen people do that right in front of me. Were you witness to it as well? Are you... like, over here? ARE YOU THE MATRIX?!?!

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

It's kind of like if I wanted to send my kid to soccer camp and her mom said, "No, we can't afford it." And I say to her, "Are you sure? It costs $20 a month and we spend $300 a month on eating out and going to the movies." She says, "Nope, can't afford it." "But she might get a little better at soccer." "No, she won't." "What? How do you know that?" "I just do." So I say, "OK, well how about a different less expensive soccer camp?" "Nope, soccer camp is immoral." "Wait, I thought it was the cost?" "It's the cost, too." "Well damn... do YOU have any ideas about how she can get better at soccer?" And she puts her hands on her hips and goes, "We're not talking about this."

And on and on. It's very dumb, by the way.

Nice try, Andrew, but I'm a bit closer to the issue, seeing how I live in a border state. We hear about it CONSTANTLY. It's literally half the feed in my fb. And the local news. And so on. But again, no one wants to talk about property rights of border residents, or long term consequences of said wall environmentally, or, like, ANYTHING but "DA DRUGS!" when that is barely a drop in the bucket compared to what comes in through LEGAL entry points. For that matter, we get more illegal immigrants from Australia or Canada than we do from Mexico! In fact, Mexico isn't even in the top five!

Let that sink in. But of course, no one complains about THEM, because, hey, they speak English already, they have cool accents, and they look like us. It's patently bigoted. And ineffective, when our biggest busts come in shipping trucks, sniffed out by dogs. And when even Asian countries have more illegals coming in than Mexico does. That should tell you something. The border itself is not the problem. It has ALWAYS benn there, and our state's portion of it (nearly half the entire border!) Is mostly RIVER!! So this "wall" is redundant. And insanely destructive and useless for what it SUPPOSEDLY is intended for. Not the people, but the drugs and crime. Over 95% of our crime is home-grown. Less than 5% is from illegal immigrants. WHAT, exactly, are we "peotecting" ourselves from, again??? If we really want to be honest, the wall is just a big middle finger to all of our southern neighbors, that we don't want "their kind" coming here. AT ALL. And then there are the border town economies. What do you think will happen to them? I'll wait. Oh, and the US military would like a word about that, too.... (Bases taking day leave in Mexico? Am I the only one who thought of that?)

But no, everyone is suddenly obsessed with building a huge wall around our backyard, that we didn't even know we "needed" until Trump's campaign. Funny how that works. The man is obsessed with his wall, but since he's a narcissist, it's really not surprising. They LOVE to make everything about what THEY want, and getting their way, because that's how they think. It's disgusting on a level I can't even describe.

[Voltron]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

It's kind of like if I wanted to send my kid to soccer camp and her mom said, "No, we can't afford it." And I say to her, "Are you sure? It costs $20 a month and we spend $300 a month on eating out and going to the movies." She says, "Nope, can't afford it." "But she might get a little better at soccer." "No, she won't." "What? How do you know that?" "I just do." So I say, "OK, well how about a different less expensive soccer camp?" "Nope, soccer camp is immoral." "Wait, I thought it was the cost?" "It's the cost, too." "Well damn... do YOU have any ideas about how she can get better at soccer?" And she puts her hands on her hips and goes, "We're not talking about this."

And on and on. It's very dumb, by the way.

It is dumb. But it's dumb because, like the Wall, no one needs soccer camp.

Here's a better demonstration.

A: "We all need to pay more taxes to build a wall to keep illegal immigrants out."

B: "I thought you said Mexico would pay for it."

A: "Look, this is important. There's caravans of murderers and Middle Eastern rapists crossing the border. They're taking towns hostage. We NEED that Wall."

B: "And you want the government to build that wall?"

A: "Yes. I guess so. No. I mean, we could give it to private contractors."

B: "Don't you hate the government though? I mean, when I asked for higher taxes for health care, you lost your mind. You said it was unconstitutional and that government was a tyrant."

A: "This is different. Everybody can use this Wall."

B: "But we don't live anywhere near the border. I don't see any illegal immigrants anywhere. All the crime around here is perpetrated by native born citizens. Also, I just saw a video where Trump was briefed by border patrol on how the cartels burrow under the walls we have. Studies show that most illegal immigrants come in by plane with visas and overstay."

A: "That's all fake news. And what about the drugs pouring in?"

B: "Don't Republicans espouse personally responsibility? Why is it, after asking for help for so many other things and being denied, that we have to bail out a bunch of people who can't own up to their own addiction? I'm not making them do drugs."

A: "You're cruel and heartless! Those people are out there suffering! They're getting raped and killed and you don't even care!"

B: "What about the $10,000 a month prescription for my kid's cancer?"

A: "That's not MY problem."

B: "This seems to be stemming from some serious unresolved anger issues. You might want to seek a help."

A: "What? How dare you! I've never been angry in my whole life! You better be careful! I have a gun, you bleeding heart liberal cuck!"

B: "Why don't you use the gun to fight off the immigrants. You were yelling last year about how you have the right to bear arms and form a well regulated militia."

A: "You're not an American. You're just mad that Hillary lost!"

B: "I didn't even vote for her."

A: "I'm telling Sean Hannity. He does martial arts, and he'll kick your ass!"

B: "Why don't you just send him to the border? Sounds like he'll karate chop that drug problem right in half."

A: "He should, but then who would tell me what to think?! Now pay up, or we'll shut the government down again and blame everyone but ourselves."

B: "But you just said you were going to do it."

A: "Shut up! No I didn't! I'll get you for this, my pretty! And you're little congresswoman from New York, too!"

[Leo656]

This is all very entertaining.

It's also why I think we should just annex all of Mexico and South America and start completely over.

I never said my solutions were practical, just that... well... they're kind of the only way to ever see anything improve on a massive scale. Anything in between is just Progress By Inches.

[BartAllen]

There is still a lot of irony to be had that the only Mexican in most of these discussions thinks a border wall/barrier/whatever is necessary.

Oh, and it's not only about drugs. Human trafficking is HUGE. Coyotes DO bring them along routes that are open between mexican and the US. It would be great if a border barrier could stop that.


https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/28/w...icking-border/

You can use whatever sophist nonsense idiotic knowledge you want to justify your position, but if one little girl gets to avoid being sold into a life of prostitution then I really don't care about the ramifications of the wall being built. I don't care if Mexico is supposed to pay for it. I want it to protect not only Americans but Mexicans as well.

And if the majority of these illegals came through in trucks why do they chance crossing desserts to get here? Strange when facts get in the way of your moral proselytizing.

[TurtleWA]

Could it possibly work to have “the wall” serve multiple purposes?

A dam can generate electricity, control water flow and let fish swim. Maybe have training based at the wall? When you graduate a program you get the degree. Also job placement and citizenship.

During training you will be required to have work study. Any job like construction, teachers, good service, medical ect. Also, first new job placement would be located around wall location. Giving back type thing. For a set amount of time. Then say after a few years of wall duty new citizens can relocate if they want.

Mexico would split the cost of living for immigrants until legal US citizens. Housing might be in Mexico. Or the wall itself could be home like. Trying to figure out a compromise is all. Every idea has flaws at first.

*this was a random thought and I did not edit for spelling, my apologies

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by BartAllen

There is still a lot of irony to be had that the only Mexican in most of these discussions thinks a border wall/barrier/whatever is necessary.

Oh, and it's not only about drugs. Human trafficking is HUGE. Coyotes DO bring them along routes that are open between mexican and the US. It would be great if a border barrier could stop that.


https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/28/w...icking-border/

You can use whatever sophist nonsense idiotic knowledge you want to justify your position, but if one little girl gets to avoid being sold into a life of prostitution then I really don't care about the ramifications of the wall being built. I don't care if Mexico is supposed to pay for it. I want it to protect not only Americans but Mexicans as well.

And if the majority of these illegals came through in trucks why do they chance crossing desserts to get here? Strange when facts get in the way of your moral proselytizing.

They are hidden in large eighteen-wheel trailers, often behind or even IN crates for shipping legal goods. This goes for both drugs and people. A wall is not going to stop any of that, becaue they go through actual entry points. The ones going through open wilderness are typically the ones trying to get AWAY from that kind of violence and corruption. It doesn't help when authorities (on both sides) often turn a blind eye if they are paid enough, or are already in on the racket themselves. A wall WOULD NOT MATTER. Those same girls would still be sold into sex-slavery- they just might not be sold HERE. It's even more of a market in many countries overseas where human rights are less recognized, or where laws regarding them are more lax. Like, Hong Kong, the Middle East, Africa, etc....

No wall is going to do anything to stop girls from ANYWHERE being herded into shipping containers and sent on cargo ships, or on trains, or any other form of transport than on foot. That line of thinking is BEYOND short-sighted and myopic, from any point of reference. It is why a border wall WILL FAIL. It is a useless gesture as anything other than a big "f*** you" to the countries south of our border. It's like a big sign saying "no vacancy" or "(insert ethnic group here) need not apply". And it's reprehensible to think that we are doing exactly what Germany did, for basically the same reason- to keep our country "free of THOSE people".

For what it's worth, though, I am almost tempted to say LET him have his damn wall, just so the world sees what a colossal waste of time, money, effort, and resources it will actually be. Or better yet, tell him he can have it, then keep it tied up in so much beurocratic red tape that it simply NEVER gets built. And then let Trump stew on that after he leaves office. Its what government does best, after all!!

[TurtleWA]

Coming to America to hide in the shadows is no life. Definitely call it something other than “wall.” Imo. How about gateway? It could develop into an industry designed to facilitating the trip. The gateway center could support itself somehow and pay back the American people for any start up costs. Maybe.

[Voltron]

Originally Posted by BartAllen

There is still a lot of irony to be had that the only Mexican in most of these discussions thinks a border wall/barrier/whatever is necessary.

Oh, and it's not only about drugs. Human trafficking is HUGE. Coyotes DO bring them along routes that are open between mexican and the US. It would be great if a border barrier could stop that.


https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/28/w...icking-border/

You can use whatever sophist nonsense idiotic knowledge you want to justify your position, but if one little girl gets to avoid being sold into a life of prostitution then I really don't care about the ramifications of the wall being built. I don't care if Mexico is supposed to pay for it. I want it to protect not only Americans but Mexicans as well.

And if the majority of these illegals came through in trucks why do they chance crossing desserts to get here? Strange when facts get in the way of your moral proselytizing.

Idiotic knowledge? Is that like being stupid smart? Or skinny fat?

You're right, though. That wall would definitely stop human trafficking in it's entirety. Human traffickers would NEVER think of a way around a wall, nor would they ship humans to a different country.

Wasn't the dreaded caravan coming from countries other than Mexico? If you're concerned about Mexicans, why not put the wall on the southern border of Mexico and save them all?

. . . You understand how trucks work, right? That last point makes zero sense. People cross the desert in trucks every day with no problem. Or did you literally mean desserts? Do you think they're driving across giant pies?

[BartAllen]

Originally Posted by Voltron

Idiotic knowledge? Is that like being stupid smart? Or skinny fat?

You're right, though. That wall would definitely stop human trafficking in it's entirety. Human traffickers would NEVER think of a way around a wall, nor would they ship humans to a different country.

Wasn't the dreaded caravan coming from countries other than Mexico? If you're concerned about Mexicans, why not put the wall on the southern border of Mexico and save them all?

. . . You understand how trucks work, right? That last point makes zero sense. People cross the desert in trucks every day with no problem. Or did you literally mean desserts? Do you think they're driving across giant pies?

Hey, I'm not interested in discussing descriptors you use to describe yourself.

Anyway, yea. As I stated in my earlier post. Coyotes are not bringing these child caravans through the roadways. They're bringing them over the deserts 2 or 3 dozen at a time. Yes, a wall would stop a lot of that. The wall seems to work in Israel. Oh, and could you point out where I said it would stop it in totality? I don't think it would, but stopping it from happening to one child would be a net benefit for the wall.

Oh lord, and attacking a typo instead of the point I'm making... Good job.

Mexico actually deports its illegals.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46339085

Oh, and there are barriers at the border between Guatemala and Mexico. There are only gaps where there is dense jungle... Don't let that get in the way of whatever nonsense you're typing, though.

And people DO NOT cross the desert on trucks. Most of the trafficking at the border is done on foot. Make stuff up, though. I know winning an argument on the internet matters to you.

https://www.cnn.com/2017/07/28/us/mi...ers/index.html

Here's an article talking about a substantial drop in border arrests when fencing was put in place along the border. I get that you don't care about people suffering. That's obvious. I get it. You just care about appearing virtuous and not implementing things that could actually help people.

I keep hoping you can actually address my arguments instead of insulting me. I know it's hard when you don't actually have a real argument and just ape CNN.

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

They are hidden in large eighteen-wheel trailers, often behind or even IN crates for shipping legal goods. This goes for both drugs and people. A wall is not going to stop any of that, becaue they go through actual entry points. The ones going through open wilderness are typically the ones trying to get AWAY from that kind of violence and corruption. It doesn't help when authorities (on both sides) often turn a blind eye if they are paid enough, or are already in on the racket themselves. A wall WOULD NOT MATTER. Those same girls would still be sold into sex-slavery- they just might not be sold HERE. It's even more of a market in many countries overseas where human rights are less recognized, or where laws regarding them are more lax. Like, Hong Kong, the Middle East, Africa, etc....

No wall is going to do anything to stop girls from ANYWHERE being herded into shipping containers and sent on cargo ships, or on trains, or any other form of transport than on foot. That line of thinking is BEYOND short-sighted and myopic, from any point of reference. It is why a border wall WILL FAIL. It is a useless gesture as anything other than a big "f*** you" to the countries south of our border. It's like a big sign saying "no vacancy" or "(insert ethnic group here) need not apply". And it's reprehensible to think that we are doing exactly what Germany did, for basically the same reason- to keep our country "free of THOSE people".

For what it's worth, though, I am almost tempted to say LET him have his damn wall, just so the world sees what a colossal waste of time, money, effort, and resources it will actually be. Or better yet, tell him he can have it, then keep it tied up in so much beurocratic red tape that it simply NEVER gets built. And then let Trump stew on that after he leaves office. Its what government does best, after all!!

Again, it works for Israel. When they built their wall terrorism plummeted. Granted, it wasn't a perfect fix, but it stopped a lot of the bad acts.

Oh, and Voltron, you see this post right here? This is a cogent/thoughtful argument that actually addresses some of points I was talking about in my post. I don't agree with this person, but I at least have the wherewithal to respect a well thought argument even I don't agree with it.

All I see from you is thinly veiled insults hiding the fact that you really can't refute anything I've written in any of my posts. If an insult is all you have then you really don't have anything. Keep trying though. It might work one of these days.

Oh, and I notice that this poster has done a lot of cussing in their post. I don't seeing you harassing them... It's almost like you're selectively choosing when and where to apply the rules.

One final thing. When I say idiotic knowledge what I mean is the knowledge you acquired to justify your positions is obviously idiotic and slanted.... To be fair, it was a poor example. I should have said that you are using sophist nonsense to justify your obviously slanted opinions based on your warped ideologically driven worldview.

[Leo656]

Yikes, this is a touchy subject.

I'm just curious what some alternative solutions might be. Hopefully, "It's too far out of our hands, man... f*ck it" isn't on the table. I mean, I don't wanna read too much into what people do or do not say, but it almost sounds like that, sometimes.

And, I mean, I've actually personally spoken to people who've said as much. "We can't stop it, just let the floodgates open," which is... terrible.

It's always better to come down "too harshly" on the side of law and order, rather than advocate chaos in the name of "being nice". But that's me.

I'unno. If not wall/barrier/misc., then what? I mean, I'm okay with landmines but I'm kind of "not right" in general so that's probably not a good idea.
--------

Bart, Voltron's a Mod and also fairly approachable. I suggest taking the back-and-forth to PM regarding issues such as posting tone and/or selective enforcement. I'm hearing you, but I think it might be better to segregate the on-topic posts from the personal conflict segments, just to prevent another thread explosion.

Just a suggestion. In case it's never been made obvious, I'm on neither's "side" as I respect each of you quite a bit, just offering solutions to the betterment of everyone.

[BartAllen]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Yikes, this is a touchy subject.

I'm just curious what some alternative solutions might be. Hopefully, "It's too far out of our hands, man... f*ck it" isn't on the table. I mean, I don't wanna read too much into what people do or do not say, but it almost sounds like that, sometimes.

And, I mean, I've actually personally spoken to people who've said as much. "We can't stop it, just let the floodgates open," which is... terrible.

It's always better to come down "too harshly" on the side of law and order, rather than advocate chaos in the name of "being nice". But that's me.

I'unno. If not wall/barrier/misc., then what? I mean, I'm okay with landmines but I'm kind of "not right" in general so that's probably not a good idea.
--------

Bart, Voltron's a Mod and also fairly approachable. I suggest taking the back-and-forth to PM regarding issues such as posting tone and/or selective enforcement. I'm hearing you, but I think it might be better to segregate the on-topic posts from the personal conflict segments, just to prevent another thread explosion.

Just a suggestion. In case it's never been made obvious, I'm on neither's "side" as I respect each of you quite a bit, just offering solutions to the betterment of everyone.

Fair enough. I'll stop the bickering.

I just think it's funny that I get blamed for this nonsense when I never start it. I only give as good as I get. If I'm approached in a civil manner I will be more than happy to be civil in return.

Again, a border wall isn't going to stop all of the illegal immigration. That's a fair point that some of you all are making.

I do think there needs to be an easier path to citizenship as well. I know people that are in this country illegally that are here working a job and living their life. They're good hardworking people that would make fine additions to this great country. When I say I want a border, I mean I want a protection from the cartels and the perverts. I'm willing to try ANYTHING to stop that. Israel and a few other places have shown that a barrier would work.

To me the border wall is a good idea. It was a good idea in 2006 and 2008 when Obama was in favor of it. It's still a good idea now a little over a decade later. I don't know why people didn't seem to have a problem with it then and do now. It's almost like they don't really care about the wall. They just want to go against Trump and they think that by being against the wall they're somehow sowing strength against Trump.

https://youtu.be/l01_2tvtQcE

Now, if you want to talk about Trump going back on his promises. Stuff like "Mexicans will pay for it" Okay, that's a fair argument, but then I'm going to counter that with, "if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor". I couldn't keep my doctor and a number of other people couldn't either. That was a lie. Where was the ire and indignation when that lie happened? Why wasn't Obama called out for his obvious lying to the American people? It's almost like this outrage is being applied selectively. It's almost like there isn't really any outrage. It's almost like this is just an almost 4 year old tantrum that people are throwing and they're looking for any excuse to justify the fact that their specific warmongering candidate lost to an orange tinted buffoon.

I mean, let's face it... what's worse? A buffoon or the person that keeps continually losing to the buffoon?

Oh, and studies have not shown that most illegals in this country have just overstayed visas. It's shown that about HALF of illegals overstay their visas. The other half is pouring in over the border.


Oh and i'm STILL waiting for an explanation as to how someone can read someone else's emotional state over the internet. Those esp powers are kicking into overdrive, I guess.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

No, the other half is "pouring in" from ALL points of entry. Again, ship, freight transport, trains, any way thwy can get here. ONE wall won't stop the illegal immigration from say, Canada, or Zimbabwe, or Vietnam, or.... well, anywhere but our southern border. Because, again, immigrants coming through our southern border from Mexico (or further south) are not even in the top FIVE countries of origin! The sad fact is that NONE of the caravans would even be coming here if A), their own countries weren't so horribly corrupt and unlivable due to poor governance, and B) Trump hadn't harped on his wall so much that mass panic set in and now they all feel the need to get here before it becomes "impossible". (Not that it will actually stop anyone but the families on foot, or a few carloads here and there, but that's beside the point.)

Also, NO, most trafficers don't come in on foot. Too hard to prevent their "merchandise" from escaping or getting lost, attacked by wildlife, etc. They want their investments to actually get here. Trying to keep track of a dozen or more young girls (and boys!) while treking through difficult terrain with litttle supplies or protection is just ridiculously ineffective and stupid. Too much loss along the way that way. The ones on foot or in small vehicles are almost ALWAYS families, including pregnant women who want their kids to be born here to be citizens. The trafficers are too smart to waste reources by letting their "product" roam loose. It's common sense that coerced, forced marching over hundreds of miles would lead to FAR more dead or escaped "assets" than would ever actually reach their destination alive and well enough to be sold. Buyers want their toys to be usable, y'know.....

[BartAllen]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

No, the other half is "pouring in" from ALL points of entry. Again, ship, freight transport, trains, any way thwy can get here. ONE wall won't stop the illegal immigration from say, Canada, or Zimbabwe, or Vietnam, or.... well, anywhere but our southern border. Because, again, immigrants coming through our southern border from Mexico (or further south) are not even in the top FIVE countries of origin! The sad fact is that NONE of the caravans would even be coming here if A), their own countries weren't so horribly corrupt and unlivable due to poor governance, and B) Trump hadn't harped on his wall so much that mass panic set in and now they all feel the need to get here before it becomes "impossible". (Not that it will actually stop anyone but the families on foot, or a few carloads here and there, but that's beside the point.)

Also, NO, most trafficers don't come in on foot. Too hard to prevent their "merchandise" from escaping or getting lost, attacked by wildlife, etc. They want their investments to actually get here. Trying to keep track of a dozen or more young girls (and boys!) while treking through difficult terrain with litttle supplies or protection is just ridiculously ineffective and stupid. Too much loss along the way that way. The ones on foot or in small vehicles are almost ALWAYS families, including pregnant women who want their kids to be born here to be citizens. The trafficers are too smart to waste reources by letting their "product" roam loose. It's common sense that coerced, forced marching over hundreds of miles would lead to FAR more dead or escaped "assets" than would ever actually reach their destination alive and well enough to be sold. Buyers want their toys to be usable, y'know.....

Again, yes they are. I'm not talking about drugs. Human trafficking is mostly being done on foot.

They drive within walking distance of the border (usually a few miles) then walk across the border then drive, in another vehicle, once they're on the other side. They're walking them over because it's easier to fool the ground sensors. If they drove over, Border Patrol would be on them far more quickly.

Coyotes are smart. They're are able to hold on to the women and children through intimidation tactics. Usually the promise of a better life.

You are right that a lot of the countries they're coming from are corrupt from the bottom up. I understand why these people are doing this. Most people coming to this country just want a better life for themselves and their family. Unfortunately, they're being taken advantage of by the cartels and other nefarious organizations.

Oh, and numerous people DO die making the trek over the border. It's a huge problem that is vastly underreported.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migran..._States_border
https://www.lubbockonline.com/texas/...1/.UwZmUmJdXD0

I've read that the estimates are all WELL BELOW the number of people that are actually dying.

A border wall would stop on average around 500 people from dying annually. People wouldn't make the dangerous trek and people smugglers wouldn't try to bring them in on foot at night. Remember, they have to bring them through the desert because the more easily accessible areas are blocked by a barrier. They either die from heat exhaustion during the day or from hypothermia at night. The reason they think there is more than likely more bodies than reported is because the smugglers will bury the bodies to avoid detection.

Another thing, the reason they're taking these dangerous paths is because of the fact that the barriers that have been used have been shown to work. They avoid trying to get over in areas with fences/walls.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Oh look, BartAllen and Voltron are talking again. Cool if I just sit here and wait for things to escalate?

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

The sad fact is that NONE of the caravans would even be coming here if A), their own countries weren't so horribly corrupt and unlivable due to poor governance

I empathize with this. However, their problems are in no way MY problem.

I've been broke, homeless, beaten, abused, stolen from, you name it. Whenever I've reached out for help, be it from friends, family, or government, I've been told "You're responsible for your own life." My life sucks? MY responsibility to fix it, not to force others to do it. I've come to accept that whether that's "fair" or not, that is indeed how it works. It's not as simple as breaking into my neighbor's house and raiding his fridge if my living situation isn't as good as theirs. Even when I was a kid, with my parents in and out of jail and sometimes living in conditions where we didn't even have electricity for weeks or months on end - "You just have to do the best you can within your 'limitations'."

So frankly, I'm a little bit insulted that people from other places can assumedly just come in, claim "My life Back There sucks", and be given far more credit and concern than I ever received. Why is it that THEY can claim, "I need help, I want a 'Better Quality of Life'", but I can't? What about MY quality of life? Seriously, we ALL want "a better quality of life", that goes without saying. But there's some seriously shady sh*t going on when it comes to who "deserves" a pat on the ass and who doesn't.

I empathize with the fact that some people in 2019 live in countries where things like electricity, clean water, vaccines, and flushable toilets may as well be non-existent. This is why we shouldn't turn a blind eye to things like entire countries being operated by drug cartels, because that's the sh*t you get. We shouldn't let the fact that collectively, people REALLY like cocaine overshadow the fact that ultimately, letting these drug dealers run these countries is keeping them slaves and making everyone a second-class citizen. We need to do something about that, or we'll never see change. But meanwhile, although it sucks that people still have to live like that... It's seriously NOT my problem.

Best advice I can give those people as to a short-term way to ensure "Better Quality of Life"? DON'T GET PREGNANT! Don't have kids! If your life situation is that horrible, and you bring an innocent life into it, you should be put in jail. And if you get pregnant and try and hop a border fence or smuggle yourself in just so you can have an "anchor baby", I think you're disgusting for that, too. And don't tell me that it's "impossible" to avoid getting pregnant even if you're poor; it's not 1950. If people wanna make bad decisions, at some point we need to stop rewarding them for it. "But my life sucks!" Yeah, I know, so stop making it worse, and don't spread the misery around onto a f*cking newborn. THINK.

Inevitably, making their lives "better" is going to make someone's life worse in some way, generally someone who's already been here. It's unavoidable. We don't have infinite space in which to shelter people nor infinite resources to take care of them. People apply a credo from hundreds of years ago when half of the country was undeveloped forest and the rest was desert, as if it has ANY bearing whatsoever on Today, when we're cramming people into buildings that practically skim the clouds and charging them $5000 a month for the privilege because we have nowhere else to put anyone. But sure, let's just pile a few million more on top, what the hell. We're already f*cked, and besides, their life Back There sucked marginally worse than it will here.

Easier path to citizenship. Sure. Yes. Fine. But there NEEDS to be procedures and a Pecking Order. We can't just grant "asylum" to everyone with a sob story. That's disastrous thinking.
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Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Oh look, BartAllen and Voltron are talking again. Cool if I just sit here and wait for things to escalate?

SHADDAP, you!