Did Baxter Stockman know Shredder/Saki was an utrom?

[megashredder]

I'm sure he doesn't however he might have figured it out during the end of Season 5

Some clues that we can use to make speculation.

-Hun didn't know Saki is really Ch'rell. Until the end of exodus Part 1
-The foot Mystic's are aware of shredder being an "Utrom abomination".
And the Mystic foot ninja's being demon shredder's herald's was horrible.
I liked them in bad day when they started talking. Loved them in return to new York.
But when they showed loyalty to Demon shredder and anger towards Ch'rell, then I had a problem with them......

-Bishop has a dead Utrom in his "Collection"......










a made up Baxter Stockman Quote.

"Shredder is a Squid Extraterrestrial! That explains the Star Ship I brilliantly helped construct."


What do you guys think?

[CyberCubed]

Bishop didn't know either, so Baxter probably didn't.

In Season 7 when Cyber Shredder appears, Baxter assumes that's the same Shredder he knew.

[Icebot]

I doubt he knew during the first 3 seasons. Even Hun didn't know until Exodus and Hun was more loyal to Shredder than Dr. Stockman.

[megashredder]

[img=http://s9.postimg.org/p0whgiv2z/TMNT_Same_Karai_Legions.jpg]



If Karai is able to forge utrom tech, does Baxter know?

[mrminister4446]

He never mentioned knowing it, and we never see him seeing Shredder outside his suit. So we will just have to assume he never ever got to know.

The few times shredder was outside his suit, Baxter either just missed it or weren't there at all.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Guys, you're all forgetting an important detail- Baxter was IN on Shredder's Utrom tech and finding the helmet and suit FROM DAY ONE. He was well aware that the tech they were using was far beyond anything on Earth at the time, not to mention that they were building a spaceship under Shredder's HQ. Did he know? How could he NOT?! Even if he didn't specifically say it, he seemed to imply several times that he was aware his "boss" wasn't "human". Nor did he- or Chaplin, for that matter- bat an eye the first time it's openly "revealed". Karai obviously knew, as well, since she remained loyal to him even AFTER exodus. And the Karai-bots were clearly based on Utrom tech, which Chaplin built. In fact, he was positively gushing over the prospect of going into space with an actual alien. If he was aware, Baxter most likely had to be, too.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Guys, you're all forgetting an important detail- Baxter was IN on Shredder's Utrom tech and finding the helmet and suit FROM DAY ONE. He was well aware that the tech they were using was far beyond anything on Earth at the time, not to mention that they were building a spaceship under Shredder's HQ. Did he know? How could he NOT?! Even if he didn't specifically say it, he seemed to imply several times that he was aware his "boss" wasn't "human". Nor did he- or Chaplin, for that matter- bat an eye the first time it's openly "revealed". Karai obviously knew, as well, since she remained loyal to him even AFTER exodus. And the Karai-bots were clearly based on Utrom tech, which Chaplin built. In fact, he was positively gushing over the prospect of going into space with an actual alien. If he was aware, Baxter most likely had to be, too.

What she said. Stockman was many things, but unobservant was not one of them.

[megashredder]

In the season five series of 4kid's y2k3 Hun mentioned Ch'rell being an "alien bug". Stockman bishop and the dragon's were all in the old lair when leo assigned the meeting. So maybe he knew....

[mrminister4446]

I still don't think so, Shredder just refered to the utroms as his enemies, and not as, well, utroms. So Baxter may just have thought they were just another advanced criminal organization for all we know.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

With advanced alien tech. Sorry, that's just a little unrealistic, even for something in TMNT. Besides, as several have noted, he was fully involved in building the ship, as well as finding the sword and armor (which he was VERY eager to study, as he knew it's origin).

[megashredder]

stockman was a brain in a jar atched to hun and he saw the utrom shredder/Ch'rell in his mantis suit and the "old" Utrom exposed....

[MsMarvelDuckie]

But that was in a future timeline. However, you do bring up a good point- at some point after losing most of his body, Baxter seems to have been present at least once while Ch'rell was "exposed".

[mrminister4446]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

But that was in a future timeline. However, you do bring up a good point- at some point after losing most of his body, Baxter seems to have been present at least once while Ch'rell was "exposed".

I can't remember any point in the show where Baxter was present when Ch'rell was outside the suit, or exposed. He wasn't there when he was exposed the first time in the utrom base. Ch'rell wasn't outside his suit after the turtles in space thing and we only saw him outside the suit again during exodus, where Baxter was gone too. Baxter hasn't seen Shredder's suit damaged either in the show.

Is it stated that Baxter helped build the spaceship?

[ABrown]

I assume that Baxter found out about Ch'rell at the same point that Hun found out, at the end of season three during "Exodus".

Originally Posted by mrminister4446

Is it stated that Baxter helped build the spaceship?

Is there any reason that he wouldn't have been involved? He was in charge of the Foot's tech department.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by mrminister4446

I can't remember any point in the show where Baxter was present when Ch'rell was outside the suit, or exposed. He wasn't there when he was exposed the first time in the utrom base. Ch'rell wasn't outside his suit after the turtles in space thing and we only saw him outside the suit again during exodus, where Baxter was gone too. Baxter hasn't seen Shredder's suit damaged either in the show.

Is it stated that Baxter helped build the spaceship?

That's all debatable, though. We don't know what he did or didn't see "off-screen". However, one thing that IS certain is that Baxter WAS around when Leo "killed" Shredder the first time- he was in the building, monitoring EVERYTHING, and had been trying to stop them getting up to the top when they broke in. So was Hun, for that matter. He probably would've seen it, too. PRETTY sure that seeing their boss walking around carrying his "head" under his arm would've clued them BOTH in very fast! Anyone who thinks they didn't KNOW he wasn't human after that is not giving those guys enough credit. And this was in season two.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by ABrown

I assume that Baxter found out about Ch'rell at the same point that Hun found out, at the end of season three during "Exodus".



Is there any reason that he wouldn't have been involved? He was in charge of the Foot's tech department.

Actually, probably earlier- more likely after his "death" in season two after the turtles broke in. If Baxter didn't put two and two together after having monitored the whole building and most likely witnessing his boss "decapitated" and then get up again and carry off his own head, he's not the genius he claims to be....

And yes, he was in charge of the tech department. That alone should've been a red flag to him.

[ABrown]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

That's all debatable, though. We don't know what he did or didn't see "off-screen". However, one thing that IS certain is that Baxter WAS around when Leo "killed" Shredder the first time- he was in the building, monitoring EVERYTHING, and had been trying to stop them getting up to the top when they broke in. So was Hun, for that matter. He probably would've seen it, too. PRETTY sure that seeing their boss walking around carrying his "head" under his arm would've clued them BOTH in very fast! Anyone who thinks they didn't KNOW he wasn't human after that is not giving those guys enough credit. And this was in season two.

Not necessarily. At the moment when Shredder's head got cut off, Baxter was incapacitated somewhere offscreen. And then the turtles supposedly "fried all of the tech in the building". So there wasn't any surveillance of Shredder walking around with his head cut off.

[Xav]

Originally Posted by ABrown

Is there any reason that he wouldn't have been involved? He was in charge of the Foot's tech department.

Was he though? I'm pretty sure he was replaced by Chaplin at that point.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by ABrown

Not necessarily. At the moment when Shredder's head got cut off, Baxter was incapacitated somewhere off-screen. And then the turtles supposedly "fried all of the tech in the building". So there wasn't any surveillance of Shredder walking around with his head cut off.

Incapacitated, maybe, but unless he was locked in a closet somewhere (he wasn't) he'd have likely seen Shredder after they left. And do we know for certain they fried everything, or that there was no surveillance of him? Pretty sure they would have had back-ups in place. Either way, he would've had to be BLIND not to SEE his boss walking around afterward without a head!! Baxter tended to stay on the top floor or labs, BTW- which is where Shredder spent most of HIS time, as well. (IIRC, Baxter's office was up there in the opening eps. Shredder apparently liked keeping a VERY close eye on his subordinates.)

As for being replaced by Chaplin, that wasn't until well after Karai had arrived and been kidnapped by Bishop. Who also knew that Saki/Shredder had loads of alien tech. Granted, it was supposedly "salvaged" from the Triceratons, but he had similar tech even before that, which Baxter was well aware of. Why does everyone keep forgetting that he was Jones-ing to study the suit from DAY ONE?! He KNEW what it was, and that the metal was unlike anything on Earth. Same with the sword. Shredder knowing exactly where to find them and what they were doesn't tip him off?! Yeah, kind of doubt that.

[ABrown]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Incapacitated, maybe, but unless he was locked in a closet somewhere (he wasn't) he'd have likely seen Shredder after they left. And do we know for certain they fried everything, or that there was no surveillance of him? Pretty sure they would have had back-ups in place. Either way, he would've had to be BLIND not to SEE his boss walking around afterward without a head!! Baxter tended to stay on the top floor or labs, BTW- which is where Shredder spent most of HIS time, as well. (IIRC, Baxter's office was up there in the opening eps. Shredder apparently liked keeping a VERY close eye on his subordinates.)

After rewatching the scene where the turtles defeated Baxter, I see no reason to assume that he would've witnessed Shredder walking away with his head cut off. Baxter was blown (what appeared to be) half way across New York, and I assume his robotic body was destroyed.